dakota44

I needed a few immunizations, including Yellow Fever, tetanus and Hepititus. I was traveling in ten days. I had an appointment in 3. And I didn't have to pay any premium.
Oh, and by the way, we have user fees here too. For damn near everything. And there are private clinics etc. in Canada that one can choose to go to, if they so desire.

Rete

I actually have to agree with you Andrea at least with the healthcare systems in Quebec and Nova Scotia. My in-laws in Quebec have had nothing but problems with finding specialists for ailments that were life threatening. My b-i-l with a heart problem and high blood pressure and my s-i-l with a medical problem that could not be diagnosed in a timely manner because it took 6 months to get a doctor's appointment and another 2 months for the test. In the meantime she would pass out at any time for no apparent reason. Result? They lowered her blood pressure meds. Nova Scotia is just as bad and my grandson has had to wait for a doctor's appointment while he suffered from asthma and/or brochitis <sorry sp> and then they had to scrounge for the money to pay for the meds since that is not covered. Ontario is a bit easier as is Alberta and in fact, I believe Alberta has the best healthcare in all of Canada.

andrea874

Alberta sucked when I lived there (this was about 5 years ago). For one thing, its not free, you have to pay to get provincial health insurance, and its not very cheap either. With that said, its slightly better than Saskatchewan, which is where I spent most of my life. Not nearly as easy to deal with as Colorado, New York, or Pennsylvania (the only 3 states I've lived in) though. I've been to the ER several times in all of those places I listed, and the US certainly wins in that department as well. Canadians usually have such a rough time admitting that maybe the "free" healthcare system ISNT all its cracked up to be - and I was one of those people until I actually experienced the American system. Much more efficient. On the topic, my grandmother (this was in Manitoba) actually died waiting for an MRI, when they did the autopsy they found out it was a condition that could have been treated with meds and given her several more years of life. This stuff happening isn't just a myth, it sucks but it does happen.
Again though, of course both systems have their positives and their negatives. I suppose it just depends on whether getting GOOD immediate care at a direct price outof pocket, or mediocre delayed "free" care (for which you pay for in one way or another via taxes or otherwise) is more important.

dakota44

I can't speak to the situation in other Provinces, and so probably should not be speaking in a "canadian" context, but in an Ontario one. As I said, I have had nothing but outstanding medical care here for 28 years. I have not one complaint. I suppose we all base opinions on our experiences, rather than on the whole picture. I would guarantee you that people die waiting for an MRI in the U.S. too, depending on where they live. Neither side is perfect, but I have had nothing but great experience here.
And certainly sorry that your grandmother suffered that fate.

dakota44

I thought I would post some actual statistics about personal taxes worldwide...and i am sure you will see the truth.

Percentage of taxes paid by a household earning the countries average wage.

Let's compare the U.S. and Canada.

U.S. single with no kids. 29.1%
Canada single no kids. 31.6%

Higher in Canada, but not by much. The real heavy taxation difference is for families.

U.S. married with 2 kids. 11.9%
Canada married with 2 kids. 21.5%
Almost double the taxation. Why? because the personal exemptions and individual deductions for married and children are handled totally differently. The US. is much more generous in that respect. As I tried to point out in a previous post with actual tax figures and those deductions. But you didn't believe me. The tax rate applied to taxable income means nothing. It is The taxable income you end up with after deductions that matters, because that is what you pay taxes on. Add to that the 6% GST on everything you buy, and every service you receive, and the situation is worse.

Now, let's see where the U.S ranks in that married with 2 kids category.

Out of 30 countries included in the statistics, only 2....that's 2 with a capital T...have lower tax rates for married with 2 kids. Those would be Iceland and Ireland. That means that 27 have higher taxes for those families. Most more than double and some more than triple. As for single taxpayers with no kids....22 countries out of 30 listed have higher tax rates. You need to recognize what a fortunate tax system you have. There are countries with tax rates for those families in the forty percentile, thirty percentile and high twenties.
you can find the statistics here. At almost the bottom of the page under International Comparison. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Canada

And the cost of gas. When gas goes up in the U.S by 3 or 4 cents a gallon, or even 10, there is an outcry. I bought gas last Friday at 74 cents a liter (approximately 4 liters in a U. S. gallon...$2.96 per gallon) The next day it was 87 cents a liter. That was a one day increase of 52 cents per gallon, to $3.48. Today it was 94 cents per liter, $3.76 per gallon. In less than a week gas went up by 80 cents per gallon. What did your gas do? And the worst part, the U.S. imports most of its oil, and we export. An oil exporting country with ridiculously high gas prices and idiotic and irrational increases for no good reason.


Any way you slice it, taxes and the cost of living are higher here.

as for the health care issue...these are interesting.

From the World Health Organization

CANADA…Life expectancy at birth m/f (years): m78.0/f83.0
U.S……….. Life expectancy at birth m/f (years): m75.0/f80.0
CANADA… Healthy life expectancy at birth m/f (years, 2002): m70.1/f74.0
U.S………… Healthy life expectancy at birth m/f (years, 2002):m 67.2/f71.3
CANADA….. Child mortality m/f (per 1000): m6/f5
U.S………….. Child mortality m/f (per 1000): m8/f7
CANADA…… Adult mortality m/f (per 1000): m91/f57
U.S……………Adult mortality m/f (per 1000): m137/f81


For a country with a supposedly better health care system, the U.S has lower life expectancy, lower healthy life expectancy, higher infant mortality and extremely higher adult mortality, like 50% higher for men and 40% for women. I am not sure that supports the argument that the health system there is better than Canada’s since the U.S. trails Canada in every category.

By the way, The United States is alone among developed nations with the absence of a universal healthcare system.

workboresme

Canada has a socialized healthcare system that can/does work for some people, same as UK.

I never had a bad experience with emergency treatment in the UK - I had an abcess on my breast that had to be removed and was taken in the minute I got to the ER, the removal was done the next morning (massive scar on boob though!).

I have osteoarthritis, but before official diagnosis, I was seen within 3 months for knee surgery. I guess I just got lucky.

Socialized healthcare works for some, it's not necessarily the best thing in the world but I'd rather pay out my ass and be seen straight away - another boob lump was dealt with within 3 days, more investigative surgery on my knees within 3 weeks and I got a disabled license plates after that within 2 weeks. (And no, I don't abuse it - I only use it if I have to walk quite a distance - i.e. at the mall or Disneyland or soemthing).

Mh

In article <[email protected]> ,
Rete <[email protected]> wrote:

[cut]

    >As my Canadian husband will tell you and others here will affirm it, the
    >tax structure in the US is far higher than what you are paying in Canada
    >and for what you get for the monies.

Hmm. Being in the same boat as your DH, I'm not sure I agree (that you get
more in Canada). Ontario introduced the "health care surcharge", so if my
wife and I were working at similar jobs (teacher, engineer), we'd probably
be paying $1500 or $1800 per year surcharge for the "free" health care. Not
to mention: in K-W, a city of 300,000, apparently 30,000 were without a
family doctor (no one available). For years at a time. The doctors that were
there were working massive overtime.

While I'm not saying the ~$6K we're paying for Kaiser is cheaper (obviously),
I would say the service is similar to my 25-year experience with the
Canadian health care system. Some things are better, some worse. Not the
straw that breaks the camel's back, IMHO, unless money's tight.

Living in CA (are taxes still higher anywhere else in the US?), I find that
my expectation of "taxes on items bought" and "amount of $$$ I take home"
doesn't vary significantly from Ontario. I guess I find Ontario and
California to be a pretty close equivalent in terms of overal taxation and
money made, etc. Except no snow shovelling :-)

MH

Rete

The original poster quoted statistics which are incomplete in regards to taxation in the US. Those are federal percentages only. In the US nearly all states, with the exception of a few, i.e. Florida, Tennessee, have state taxes. Some of those states have cities that also charge city tax. For ourselves we pay federal taxes, state taxes, city tax which is an additional 15% of whatever we paid the state, a sales tax of 8.5%, plus we are asked to pay our state tax on goods purchased outside of our state while we were traveling regardless of whether we paid sales tax on it in that state. So, tell me again, that our taxes are less than Canadian taxes.

I hear on the medical issues between Canada and the US. I know that you pay for your healthcare in Ontario in form of surcharges and/or taxes and that it is not "free" for those of the working class. I also know there is private health insurance you can purchase that will give you an edge in finding a doctor sooner or get a hospital room or have elective surgery quicker. I know dental is not included in Canadian healthcare and is strictly private. I also know that my husband who is a retired military man of 36 years with the RCAF cannot use the veteran healthcare. I also know that if I were to migrate to Canada my pre-existing condition of diabetes would not be covered under Ontario healthcare and in fact I might be denied such healthcare altogether.

As for life expectancy, the OP didn't read the NY news this week. It would appear that statistically New Yorkers will live longer than the average American. I'm expected to live to age 81 and my husband to age 78.

It is unfortunate that so many Americans cannot afford healthcare. It is for the middle class working stiff, the very poor and/or the very rich. That leaves the millions of others who work menial jobs that don't offer healthcare as a benefit. Does something have to be done. YES!

Unfortunately, here in New York we still need the shovel.

dakota44

I understand the taxation you refer to in the U.S. But, the statistics I posted were for Federal taxes only (as you pointed out). In Ontario the Provincial income tax is equal to approximately 50% of the federal tax. If your Federal tax is $8000, your Provincial tax will be approximately $4000. It is not a case of a few percentage points of taxable income..it is a huge chunk, and I would think a much higher percentage of federal tax than one would pay in N.Y for example. Although I have not researched the N.Y.S. income tax rates. I know what they were when I left, but not now. I do however imagine they do not equal 50% of your federal tax. Even if they do, for a family, that would still be 50% of a much smaller amount of federal tax. City tax is another issue. I believe some cities in Canada have it, as I understand, and many do not. I also pointed out that in Ontario the sales tax is 8%..and...GST, which you do not have, is 6%. So everything we buy, or every service we receive is taxed at 14%. That is similar to all provinces in Canada, with Quebec being the highest taxed. You also might have failed to notice that the taxable income you pay taxes on is less than ours. You receive far more generous deductions for yourself, being married and for children. We get nothing in deductions for children. Not one dime of income reduction no matter how many kids you have. Plus, the deduction for yourself is not a reduction of taxable income, as it is in the U.S. Here it is only used to take a non-refundable tax credit at the lowest possible rate. When you deduct it from your taxable income, you are getting credit at the highest rate for your income bracket.
As regards federal tax, with the deductions allowed in the U.S my federal tax would be less than half of what I will pay in Canada, and I still have to pay that huge Provincial chunk. Also remember that you can deduct mortgage interest in the U.S., we can't. Period. When someone has 8 or 9 thousand dollars of mortgage interest to deduct, that's a huge advantage. Although they have modified it in recent years, I understand that there is still some deduction for sales tax in the U.S. There is no such deduction in Canada based on actually sales taxes paid. Even the deduction on Provincial tax for property tax is a convoluted formula that often leaves you with no deduction at all. And any deduction, as with the personal deduction, comes in the form of that "lowest bracket" tax credit, rather than an actual deduction from taxable income. I believe that you can deduct State taxes from your federal income, although I am not sure if they changed that. No such thing here either. Canada is double taxation to the max.
So, as you requested, I will tell you again...your taxes are less than ours. Anytime you want to compare tax returns, let me know.

dakota44

To further demonstrate my point...I calculated N.Y.S. and N.Y.C. taxes to go along with the federal. (everything is in U.S. funds) For the year in question, 2005, gross income $44,319, filing as married with 2 children, my Federal, State and City taxes would have amounted to $2619 fed + $982 NYS + $689 NYC = $4,290. My Canadian Federal and Provincial taxes?????? $8,950. THAT'S 209% OF THE TAX I WOULD PAY IN THE U.S....... What else do I need to do to make you folks realize the tax burden here is higher. And I didn't even include the OHIP health surcharge I paid of $650.

And again, those amounts do not reflect any deductions other than personal and family, no mortgage interest etc. The spread would be even greater if those items were factored in, because we don't have those handy little deductions.
But, since I plan to live in Florida, with no state income tax, and a city with no income tax, my tax burden would be 29% of what it is here.

ian-mstm

I have enjoyed this exchange tremendously... but the term "OCD" springs to mind!

Ian

dakota44

Well..there is a tab of OCD in me. But that mostly involves setting things at right angles and turning off my bedroom light 5 times. lol But the facts are still the facts. But at this point, I give up. At least I took the time and trouble to do tax returns for both countries, including city and state taxes, to prove my point. Some here who disagree might download the forms and tax tables from Revenue Canada and do their own comparison. Might be enlightening.

Rete

Don't have to. Have been paying both US and Canadian taxes for 8 years. We enjoy income, pension and rent from both countries.

dakota44

I cannot speak to the tax comparison for your situation..but then my point has been about families with dependent children (that is where the huge tax difference is)...which you are not, both collecting pensions and all. I also have not addressed rental income, or any income other than earned wages from direct employment. So no matter what, you cannot compare your tax situation with that of a family with dependent children, and therefore cannot claim, based on your situation, that such families are more heavily taxed in the U.S.

Perhaps the deductions and tax rates for your situation are more comparable to Canada's, but that is not what I was addressing. Frankly, because I don't
know.

I am intrigued by the "paying taxes in both countries" situation. I believe that passive income in Canada (rent, interest etc) are not exempted from taxes in the U.S. even if your domicile is in the U.S. and that could result in such income being taxed in both places, but not sure about it. That is certainly an area where your first hand knowledge would be of great interest to me.

Rete

No the rental income is only taxed in Canada. As long as the income is earned in Canada and taxes paid on it there and under the allowed amount in the US/Can tax treaty, you only pay once. I am not retired as I am much younger than my husband and still working full time. In fact he is working full time in the US as well as he will not qualify for social security until he has worked 40 quarters regardless of his being a USC. Nor will he qualify for Medicare until that time.

He, however, is a Canadian born in Canada and who lived in Canada until 8 years ago. He had three children all raised in various provinces from east to west coasts and inbetween as well in many European countries. I am fully aware of the inability to claim dependents on Canadian returns.

When all is said and done, even with the so-called tax breaks in the US once you add together the amounts you have to pay for healthcare (even employer sponsored healthcare today requires that the beneficiary pay part of it), your co-pays, etc. your debits will be equal to the tax structure of a Canadian whose healthcare is part of their tax.

I only wonder why you, as a USC, lived and raised children in Canada if the tax structure was so prohibitive, seeing that you were apparently born and lived your younger years in the US.