msabiransari

"False. Everyone likes to be able to travel. That's why the cheater bothered with the work visa to begin with. They want to be pseudo-legal."

Work visa is the most difficult one to get because employer has to offer you a job. I do not think a cheater can qualify for that. Even if someone manage to get this through a consulting firm, He cannot retain it for three years because he has to prove it in this highly competitive market.


"They can be caught and denied when they apply within the US. However, when that happens, nobody is going to make sure they actually leave the US."

"Not really true. There is a lot of information. I doubt DHS hs *all* of it. Either way, people who overstay work visas once denied are very low on the priority list when it comes to removing them. Criminals, and people who jumped the fence will all have to be picked up before the government bothers tracking down someone who overstayed their H1B."

This is where they need to make such arrangements. This is actually the problem area and need a fix. You might know that USCIS hired people just to verify if the H1b employee is really working at the place where the employer has got the H1b approval for him or not. Same thing can be done for the overstayed H1b's.


"I agree that it's problematic. I'd encourage anyone who is considering coming to the US on a work visa to factor that aspect of the process into their decision. If the cons outweigh the pros for that individual, they shouldn't come. The process is not a secret. Take it or leave it."

This is an excuse for those who do not want to fix a problem.

If a company is hiring someone from abroad it means that company needs him. Same is true for the person who is coming to US because he finds it better to work here in US.

You probably are aware of the benefits a company gets when it has diversity. These workers coming around the world have made a significant difference in the US. If you do not agree with me then you need a visit to Silicon Valley and at the World's Top Software companies and NYC Financial district.

scrubbedexpat099

and because they will do jobs Americans will not do.

crg

You think the system is so air tight that people don't cheat? They do cheat and it is rampant. According to the GAO, they found up to 45% of applications were "questionable" and 21% were confirmed to be "fraudulent".

Check out the government report (keep in mind this report was created before they stopped doing renewals within the US):

"INS investigators following up after petitions have been approved have found a number of instances of program fraud in the program. For example, INS has found workers brought to the United States under the program who worked in occupations that did not qualify as H-1B occupations; it has also identified employers who have created shell corporations and created false credentials and documents for aliens who were not eligible for H-1B employment. In 1998 and 1999, INS referred petitions to the State consular post in Chennai, India, if they had certain fraud indicators, such as a degree from a university often used in forged degrees. State found that of the 3,247 petitions referred through March 31, 1999, close to 45 percent of claims made on these petitions were of questionable validity and 21 percent of the work experience claims made to INS were fraudulent."


"INS typically does not verify whether the workers it approves actually work
in the jobs for which it approved the petitions and, according to INS
officials, detection of visa fraud after petitions have been approved is not
an investigative priority because limited special agent resources are, of
necessity, primarily devoted to criminal activities."

Timberwolf0122

You'd think they could cross check you VISA with your SSN to see if you have paid any taxes and then use that to confirm you are in fact employeed, if no tax is paid they could then make you send in a copy of a paycheck+bank record to prove you are indeed earning a living at said company.... Or am I being too logical here?

msabiransari

This is very very old and things have changed drastically since then. Now it is very difficult to get the H1 petition approved which is not genuine, specially after 2009 Employer-Employee relationship memo.

As I said before, they even check if the said employee is working at the location or not. They also check the company documents if they are good and not doing any fraudulent activity before approving the H1b.

We as an H1b (and even PR) have to inform USCIS about our address change. Immigration asks about our Credit Cards when we come to USA. They keep this information with them. If I forget to inform one of the bank about my address change, they send me the letter that you have moved and did not inform them. What I am trying to say here is, They can easily track where you are and what you are doing?

USCIS also charges $500 fraud prevention and detection fee in order to judge the application. Why are they charging this fee then?

As Timberwolf0122 said in his post and I completely agree with him that they can easily check with state/federal tax departments in order to find out where the employee is working?

You cannot develop 100% fool proof system. There is always a possibility of fraud. The new system is quite mature and can detect most of the fraudulent applications. The decision of not stamping the visa in States should be re-considered as so many people are suffering. You never know what happens to your loved ones back home and when you go there you stuck for several months and possibly can loose your job here.

ian-mstm

You have some seriously wrong information, and most of what you've written is bunk!

Ian

msabiransari

With all due respect Sir, What I have mentioned in my post is not information but experience. Right now, I am part of this system and facing these problems and specially the problem which is the topic of this thread.

I would like to re-iterate here that "Visa re-stamping should be done in the USA if beneficiary is already present here". It doesn't make sense to me to wait until cheater goes back to home country and then keep him there rather charging him when he is in the USA.

crg

It is bunk. Some people stow away in the shipping containers. They crawl into the wheel wells of jet aircraft. They walk for days across deserts and mountains. They get crushed in the mechanical parts of buses. People enter into fake marriages. They use fake documents. They surgically alter their fingerprints. They drown trying to swim across rivers. To know that happens and still think that there aren't a ton of people trying to submit false paperwork each and every day or that the US government can weed them all out is naive. If there is a mechanism to come to America, there are literally thousands of people lining up to exploit that process.

There aren't enough prisons or courts in the world to handle all of these administrative violations. You know what the biggest penalty is for an administrative immigration violation? It's removal from the US. The person doesn't get a jail sentence. They get removed. So the government can accomplish that goal by denying the visa when the person applies outside the US. They apparently find that having the foreign worker go foreign to apply more palatable than arguing about it through the courts and appeals process for *years* at great expense.

msabiransari

Please read through all the posts in this thread first and pay attention to the title of the thread too.

We are not talking about the people who enter United States in containers or via rivers. We are talking about people who come through US companies. Who are legal here. Who have Social Security. Who have bank accounts. Who work in the offices not at gas stations. Who are doctors, engineers, skilled and well educated. These are the people who get a job offer from a legal US company. They go to US embassy, get their degrees verified. They give their finger prints and get the security clearance, take flights and get interviewed before an immigration officer who checks all the documents issued by the US government and then they enter United States.

For your kind information (Looks like you have no idea about the H1b business here) If there is a company in US involved in the fraudulent business, they can get enough amount to US govt in terms of fines or after a trial in the court and it has happened in 2008/2009.
If there is an individual on H1b involve in the fraudulent business then employer is responsible for him and they are required to inform USCIS/DHS about that individual and have to revoke the H1b petition.

It sounds stupid that we should wait for the cheater to go out of the country and then keep him away from US by denying the visa or assume that if a cheater has gained entry into the United States first time by providing false document then second time we will be able to catch him.

Cheers.

crg

So why do you think they won't renew visas in the US anymore? Is it because they want to be mean? What is the goal?

Pardon me if I'm not convinced that the system is as foolproof as you believe it is. Many of us have been immersed in immigration issues years and are quite familiar with the fraud that is out there. The system may appear to be air tight to someone who operates within the process to secure employment, but there are lots of people who look at the same system and successfully concoct the same documentation from thin air.

Cheers.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...1bside15m.html

http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/managing...islation-27683

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOqOxYr4F18

msabiransari

Thanks for providing these links. This is what I am talking about. USCIS has performed significant changes in the H1b process and It is now very difficult to get the H1b petition approved. By the way I never said it is a fool proof system.

Apart from these changes, What do you think how many from these fraud cases might have tried re-stamping? Hope you get my point here.

scrubbedexpat099

Just from what I have read but it seems that the level of fraud is a regional thing.

For example there was a report on the level of fraud relating to the GC Lottery, I think in Nigeria it was something over 80%.

For H and L most of the fraud seems to come from the Indian Subcontinent, so if they just restricted the need to go back to those areas then perhaps that would be a good compromise?

S Folinsky

The system does not exist for the benefit of the alien. Also, the general system was put in place before Lindbergh flew the Atlantic and that was a considered a Very Big Deal.

"Visas" are issued by "consular" officers who work for the Department of State. "Consular Officers" are stationed outside of the United States. Inside of the United States, the immigration laws are the responsibility [with the exception of the administrative Immigration Courts] of the Department of Homeland Security. In addition, a "visa" is a stamp which allows a person [and the carrier on which they are traveling] to come to a port of entry and apply for admission to the United States. It avoids the situation where a person is refused and then faces a several day [or week] voyage back to whence they came.

scrubbedexpat099

They flew United?

crg

If they made the rules different for one area, it could create a diplomatic firestorm so perhaps that's why they make everyone suffer.

They used to reissue visas within the US up until Fall of 2004 but then stopped. I did some looking and found how this process change came about and the reason they gave for the change. It seems to have been triggered by a law that required the DOS to get photos/fingerprints when they issued a visa.

It started with:
Section 303 of the Enhanced Border Security and Visa Entry Reform Act (Pub. L. 107–173, 116 Stat. 543)

http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/P...0-0-24919.html

The reason they gave was:

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2004/pdf/04-14245.pdf

"22 CFR 41.111(b) authorizes the Deputy Assistant Secretary for Visa
Services or any other person he or she designates to reissue nonimmigrant
visas, in their discretion. The original purpose of this authority was to provide nonimmigrant services to foreign government officials and to
international organization employees. Over time, the authority was extended
to include reissuances in the C, E, H, I, L, O and P visa classifications. We
recognize that the domestic reissuance of business-related visas to applicants in the United States has been a convenience to the international
business community.

However, we are discontinuing the reissuance of visas in these categories because of increased interview requirements and the
requirement of Section 303 of the Enhanced Border Security and Visa
Entry Reform Act (Pub. L. 107–173, 116 Stat. 543) that U.S. visas issued after October 26, 2004, include biometric identifiers. It is not feasible for the
Department to collect the biometric identifiers in the United States.

In order to mitigate the inconvenience to applicants, we will direct all visa
adjudicating posts to accommodate on a priority basis applicants who would
have benefited from our visa reissuance services."

The law ordered the DOS to get fingerprints/photos when they issued visas. Apparently, the interview/fingerprint requirements put in place by the law were too much for the DOS to handle within the US since they didn't have the employees/facilities to do so and would have had to create a whole system/infrastructure within the US when they already had a system/infrastructure abroad. They would have had to setup psuedo-consular offices throughout the US to accomodate the workload.

Keep in mind that the DOS has a small number of US employees. The bulk of the passport issuance process takes place at post offices. The alternative would be to process visa renewals at the post office. Each post office would need fingerprint scanners, cameras, and trained employees to conduct interviews.

They decided that if the person wanted to travel outside the US they might as well compel them to get the visa before coming back. People who didn't want to travel, didn't have to.

So the impetus surrounding the change may not have been out of concern that fraudulent documents are used to obtain genuine work visas, but an effort to limit the use of counterfeit visas, or bad people using visas that were issued to other people. They wanted to make the documents more secure by linking fingerprints to them and couldn't easily do that within the US.