Freedomtrail

Also, many attorney's will operate on a contingency basis for cases where
damage awards can be high. They could expend significant resources with no
guarantee of any payment. They usually don't take cases they don't think
they can win, but they can wind up working for free.

-f

Matthew Udall

Hi F,
Can you please give me the name of the immigration firm where they have attorneys living in these million dollar mansions, and paying clients willing to pay them $300.00 per hour to simply fill out forms? I would like to get a job working for them ;-).

The business immigration cases are the big-ticket item cases. I focus on the family based cases, which is less lucrative. I charge a flat rate fee of $900.00 for my fiancée cases. Some cases fly through without a hitch (when there "is" a hitch [INS or Consulate screw-up], I have to spend additional time and of course, the client does not pay any more for that). For the cases that fly right through (because they were documented well and did not get an RFE or other delays by INS or Consulate screw-ups) I usually spend around 12 to 15 hours doing that work (and that's not including time spent talking or writing to the client, and believe me some clients require a lot more of this than you would think). When the INS or Consulate screw up, the additional “no cost to the client hours� can go up and up. I think I work very hard, and provide a valuable service, for the little I do make.

Lets have a little bet shall we? If your family brings home a smaller net income than mine, I'll mail you $10.00. If your family brings home a larger net income than mine, you send me $10.00. OK? Lets use our 2001 net income figures from our tax federal returns. This will be fun, and I can certainly afford to lose $10.00 if you happen to bring home a little less than I.

By the way, what do you do for your living? Just curious.

M.U.

Matthew Udall

Hello again F. I had a little more feedback, so I'm posting an additional reply. This is OT, so stop reading if you don’t like wasting your time with OT posts.

I've been at this since I started my practice in 1996. As a solo practitioner, I'm not part of a big firm that provides any "perks" or even health insurance, retirement benefits, etc. I get none of that. If I get in an accident tomorrow that puts me out of commission, my income stops right then and there.

Running a law practice is very expensive. There are the normal business costs such as renting the office and buying supplies, but add to that maintaining a library, dues for bar association memberships (such as the California State Bar dues, or the American Immigration Lawyers Association dues), insurance (to provide relief to a client just in case I make some sort of mistake that causes the client damages), costs of continuing education which includes attending conferences, my recent fact finding missions to the MSC, NSC and TSC, monthly chapter meetings, etc. This paragraph is by no means a comprehensive list of my business expenses, as there are many more.

I chart out my income and expenses "to the penny" each year when I have my tax guy prepare my returns, and I know from experience that for every $1 I bring in as gross, I spend "at least" .55 for expenses in running the practice (actually, last year business expenses took closer to .60 out of each dollar).

So for my $900.00 that I earn as an attorney fee for a fiancée case, if we use the .55 ratio I mentioned above, out of the $900.00 I take home $405.00.

Now, Uncle Sam wants his cut of 1/3 of each net dollar I bring home, so reduce my $405.00 by 1/3rd and that leaves with a grand total of $270.00. Divide $270.00 by the 15 hours it took me to earn that, and that works out to $18.00 per hour.

Not bad really. I'd be happy with $18.00 per hour if I was earning $18.00 per hour each hour on each day that I worked, however that is not the case. I can go a couple of weeks without earning a dime, however I'm still here working away on those cases, putting in the time that those cases require, and participating in non-income generating activities that are required in my line of work (not to mention volunteer time I spend with the DIY community). So in other words, a majority of the hours that I spend at the office are “not� income generating hours.

But don't feel bad for me. I actually like what I do for a living and it gives me a good feeling being a part of a nice couple staring their life out together as husband and wife. My Father always told me that one of the keys to being happy in life is being your own boss. I have to agree that I like that very much, but I can also tell you that I work a heck of a lot harder and longer hours now that I’m working for myself that I “ever� did when working for someone else! As long as I have a roof over my head (I rent a modest 2 bedroom house and I have a roommate who pays part of the rent) and food in the cupboards (and actually, I need to stop by the supermarket to stock up as I’m running low right now), I'm OK. And I have a lot of years left before retirement, so I'm sure my income level won't remain at its current level forever.

So, do you want to take me up on my $10.00 bet?

M.U.

Julia Alveres

Hi all

this is a matter I feel I must talk about. Lawyers in my view are only
out to get rich by advising people who can really do the work
themselves. Often they do not have ethics and charge hundreds of
dollars per hour .. they have no staff worth talking about .. one girl
poorly paid maybe and walk away with un-godly profits.

But this is America folks ,,,, yes your plumber will also see
hundreds of dollars for the most simple of visits .. it is just
ridiculous .. I am having second thoughts thoughts about living in
this " greed " culture. What is the point .... what I pay $500 here
can be acquired for $30 at home. It is not right if you ask me .....
that is why you have so much violence as people resent all this and I
can hardly blame them.

thanks

Julia













Andrew DeFaria wrote in message news:...
    > FreedomTrail wrote:
    >
    > > Help,
    > >
    > > I realize that there are different quality ratings of attorneys and
    > > that dollars are no indicator of how good they are. I realize they
    > > should get a "fair" wage for their services. I see "flat rate" houses
    > > out there offering AOS packages for $500. But it seems as if you want
    > > to get an attorney to help personally if your case may have "issues",
    > > they want at least $200 an hour and a $750 retainer. I can't even
    > > afford the retainer let alone what could easily wind up being $5000 of
    > > more for what I see might be a minimum of help or insurance if
    > > something goes wrong. I mean if an attorney had to show up at a
    > > hearing for you and billed for their drive time and sitting in the
    > > hallway, you could have $1000 just for a 10 minute court appearance.
    > > You have no promise of an upper limit, you could get halfway and run
    > > out of money, then have nothing and have to send your wife back home
    > > because you can't defend yourself. What options are there for people?
    >
    > You could spend like 6 years of your life and perhaps hundreds of
    > thousands of dollars of your money and become a compentent legal
    > professional yourself. That said $5000 is a bargain.
    >
    > > Are there any good attorneys that work on a sliding scale or offer
    > > payment terms?
    >
    > I'm sure there are. Question is: How good of legal representation are
    > you buying with that money?
    >
    > > Will any let you do the work and just get advice and have them there
    > > in case you get denied and have to have an attorney make a call for you?
    >
    > Sure you can do your own work. Depending on your circumstances it may
    > not be that difficult either (you don't allude to your circumstances).
    > Of course this may be risky. It's your choice and sure you can hire a
    > lawyer if you fail. But much like fixing your own car it could end up
    > being doublely expensive if you screw up for a competent professional
    > come in and fix what you messed up. It's like a lot of things in life.
    >
    > > Other than corporate clients, where do they get people who can
    > > possibly afford this, especially immigrants???
    >
    > I would think that often immigrants sponsers are affording this or
    > immigrants who are poor or don't have wealthy sponsers are getting
    > subpar legal representation. But such is life. Sorry. I know how you
    > feel but I cannot change what is.
    >
    > >
    > >
    > > -f
    > >
    > >

Matthew Udall

Hi Julia,
Just in case you are wondering about the size of my staff... I don't have any staff and I hope to never have any staff. My caseload has always been at a level where I can still easily manage it all on my own. Of course, this means that I personally have to do every single bit of work, every task, write every letter, answer every phone call, do all of the administrative office tasks myself, etc (meaning I don’t pawn off the work to an assistant, but instead actually do it myself).

My clients seem to like the fact that I pick up my own phone. They can usually find me answering my phone until around 8 to 9 PM Pacific Time (not “every� day, but most days), and quite often on Saturdays and Sunday's too. If I'm in the office when they call, they are talking to me when I answer, not a secretary who screens calls.

A lot of my clients are computer oriented and work in those related fields, and when the dotcom bubble popped, I noticed that there were slightly fewer clients. Right before the dotcom bubble popped, I was just getting to the point where I was seriously considering hiring an assistant, but after it popped, I found I could still manage it all myself. Of course, the only way to do that is by organization and having a system in place that helps me keep track of all of the tasks required with that many cases going on at one time. This has not be problem yet, but if I ever “do� get to the point where there simply are not enough hours in the day to do it all, I’ll hire an assistant.

Since I specialize in such a narrow band of case types and do so many of them at all of the Service Centers (for I-129f and I-130/Consular cases) and most of the District and Suboffices (for AOS filings), it’s easy for me to keep track of it all and know what to do pretty much when any situation comes up. I try to provide a valuable service at a reasonable rate for those who choose to hire me (if you hired an attorney, wouldn’t you want your attorney to have the same outlook about his or her practice?)

Good luck with your case, Julia.

Regards,
Matthew Udall
Attorney
http://members.aol.com/MDUdall/fiancee.htm

jcapulet

Hey Julia, lighten up. Maybe the reason America has so much resentment against us as you describe is because people are so hateful. The reasons for resentment against America goes a lot deeper than 'greed'. A great deal stems from hatred from others, which is far worse than greed.

Juliet

Vampier

Try to get a fixed price.

My girlfriend and I had a fixed price of $2500.... looking back it would be better if we didn't even had him.... but it's just easy to get quick access to the INS once a while.

Andrew Defaria

FreedomTrail wrote:

    > I would love to know how many American families have $3000 is cash
    > available in an emergency for anything, let alone attorney fees.

People should have money set aside for emergencies. I would say most
have it in the form of additional debt.

    > My point is about value. I can buy a DVD player with amazing
    > technology and the ability to entertain me for years for under $200.
    > But there are attorney's in million dollar mansions charging $300 per
    > hour to fill out a form for you. It's ridiculous and absurd.

If you think the price it too much then do you work yourself. You are
totally free to do that.

    > They don't provide that much value, not to most people since most
    > can't afford them. And it's
    > not like you can say, "but if they get you out of a jam, what's the
    > value to you for that?".

Sure you can very often say that! Just as you can say that may you can
save your own butt too if you work hard enough at it. Just like you can
say if you study at it you might be able to fix that broken dish washer
yourself. However most people hire a comptent professional who job it is
to know such things. They charge a lot but to others it's worth the
money. If it's not worth the money to you then don't pay it and fix it
yourself.

    > Well, who writes the laws and puts them in place to be purposely
    > difficult, obtuse and full of crazy regulations and stipulations so as
    > to require an attorney?

First prove your case that they do so purposely then I'll listen to the
rest. Writing law is difficult.

    > Could it be...... attorneys? The bar association is as powerful as the
    > gun lobby and since most of congress and the senate are attorney's by
    > trade, do you think they will ever institute anything that doesn't
    > serve them?

You lost all of your credibulity with this statement to me.

Andrew Defaria

Julia Alveres wrote:

    > Hi all
    > this is a matter I feel I must talk about. Lawyers in my view are only
    > out to get rich by advising people who can really do the work
    > themselves. Often they do not have ethics and charge hundreds of
    > dollars per hour .. they have no staff worth talking about .. one girl
    > poorly paid maybe and walk away with un-godly profits.
    > But this is America folks ,,,, yes your plumber will also see hundreds
    > of dollars for the most simple of visits .. it is just ridiculous .. I
    > am having second thoughts thoughts about living in
    > this " greed " culture. What is the point .... what I pay $500 here
    > can be acquired for $30 at home. It is not right if you ask me .....
    > that is why you have so much violence as people resent all this and I
    > can hardly blame them.

My advice? Become a plumber or a lawyer or stop complaining and go home!

That is all...

Mrtravel

Freedom,

I can assure you that there are MANY MANY MANY attorneys that would have
trouble paying $300 for their loved one to immigrate. You have an
interesting view of attorneys. They have spent many years and much money
in school training for this. Do you not thing they should be paid for
this time and money investment? I am a networking support engineer. My
income rank is above 6 figures, even though it is about 1/3 of what I
made in 1999 and 2000. It has taken quite a lot of work for me to get to
the level I am at today. It might take me 5 minutes to do something that
it would take other people hours to resolve. I know this because I see
have seen quite a few of these. A week or so ago, I was on a conference
call for a problem that had been going on for 5 days. It passed through
several people before I got it. Our customer was a well known consulting
agency, a subsidary of the company that paid me (and thousands others)
to leave 9 1/2 years ago. It took longer for them to explain the problem
than it took me to find the cause. I found the cause by asking them to
type one simple command. So, if someone pays me $300 per hour for my
time, you can be certain they are getting value for it. By the way, this
problem affected a major travel agency's (you would know them by name)
ability to process airline reservations at ALL of its offices in the
US. I can assure you the potential for monetary loss was much more than
$300 per hour.
BTW, it was a contract covered call, so they didn't really pay me $300
per hour. The point I am trying to make is that if the attorney is
worth $300 per hour, then you will generally come out ahead.
Of course, filing for a fiance visa, without having any red flags,
generally wouldn't require the skills of a $300 per hour attorney, any
more than a grinding disk noise on a load balancing device requires my
skills. However, if I got stuck and thought an attorney could help, I
wouldn't hesistate to use one.
Do you think OJ would have been acquited with a Public Defender?

Ronald Austin

Well said, MrT.


"mrtravel" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Freedom,
    > I can assure you that there are MANY MANY MANY attorneys that would have
    > trouble paying $300 for their loved one to immigrate. You have an
    > interesting view of attorneys. They have spent many years and much money
    > in school training for this. Do you not thing they should be paid for
    > this time and money investment? I am a networking support engineer. My
    > income rank is above 6 figures, even though it is about 1/3 of what I
    > made in 1999 and 2000. It has taken quite a lot of work for me to get to
    > the level I am at today. It might take me 5 minutes to do something that
    > it would take other people hours to resolve. I know this because I see
    > have seen quite a few of these. A week or so ago, I was on a conference
    > call for a problem that had been going on for 5 days. It passed through
    > several people before I got it. Our customer was a well known consulting
    > agency, a subsidary of the company that paid me (and thousands others)
    > to leave 9 1/2 years ago. It took longer for them to explain the problem
    > than it took me to find the cause. I found the cause by asking them to
    > type one simple command. So, if someone pays me $300 per hour for my
    > time, you can be certain they are getting value for it. By the way, this
    > problem affected a major travel agency's (you would know them by name)
    > ability to process airline reservations at ALL of its offices in the
    > US. I can assure you the potential for monetary loss was much more than
    > $300 per hour.
    > BTW, it was a contract covered call, so they didn't really pay me $300
    > per hour. The point I am trying to make is that if the attorney is
    > worth $300 per hour, then you will generally come out ahead.
    > Of course, filing for a fiance visa, without having any red flags,
    > generally wouldn't require the skills of a $300 per hour attorney, any
    > more than a grinding disk noise on a load balancing device requires my
    > skills. However, if I got stuck and thought an attorney could help, I
    > wouldn't hesistate to use one.
    > Do you think OJ would have been acquited with a Public Defender?

Freedomtrail

You lost of all your credibility with "credibulity". Have you spent
much time in Washington? Without saying too much, I have spent enough time
behind the scenes in DC to be able to know quite a bit through firsthand
experience. What are your political credentials? Do you deny that most of
congress and the senate is composed of lawyers? Or are you denying that
they hardly ever do anything that doesn't serve them. How about that big
raise they gave themselves at the last minute a few years ago, so it
couldn't be debated, just before break, and right at a time when they were
having to keep issuing stopgap measures to keep the government running when
it was out of appropriations? Why do you suppose they did it like that?

I can list quite a few more examples to prove my point, not for all cases,
but for a majority of the most important cases. I'm not saying that there
are no honest men and women in Washington, I am just saying that in most
cases, influence is controlled by those with money. Why don't we have
campaign reform yet? Why do politicians fight that and controlling PACs?
Why have we no tort reform? Why are there no caps on attorney's fees or
executive perks? I argue that it's because it is those very people who are
in charge who govern themselves until there is such an outcry they must do
something else. We have the fox guarding the hen house, so while you can
disagree, I have no idea how you can say it lacks credibility.

-f

    > > Could it be...... attorneys? The bar association is as powerful as the
    > > gun lobby and since most of congress and the senate are attorney's by
    > > trade, do you think they will ever institute anything that doesn't
    > > serve them?
    > You lost all of your credibulity with this statement to me.

Freedomtrail

I agree with a lot of what you say, but you are also talking about corporate
clients. I am talking about individuals, the working class.

    > Do you think OJ would have been acquited with a Public Defender?

Exactly, you made my point. Only those who have enough money get decent
medical, legal or any other kind of help. I am arguing for more equitable
and affordable services for citizens.

-f

usmprez

Sounds to me like you should have considered emigrating to the former Soviet Union where all prices for goods and services were strictly controlled and the government legislated to bring everybody down to the lowest common denominator..............but I forgot, it didn't work did it?

Jule

"FreedomTrail" wrote in message news:...
    > Good point, and I know that part of your attorney/client relationship in not
    > abandoning clients. Perhaps just like medical malpractice cases are driving
    > up medical insurance to the point doctors are abandoning certain medical
    > areas and those left are charging rates we can't afford (attorney's again
    > ), attorney's afraid of having to work pro bono are charging exorbitant
    > fees, asking for large retainers, or billing hour after hour. It frightens
    > people. I went to one attorney for my $100 "consult", wound up finding I
    > knew more than them, they then did "research" to figure out how to tell me
    > what I already knew, and then billed me $380 all without saying anything
    > about it going over my consult! If I wanted someone who wasn't already an
    > expert, I would have done it myself. Now I know why they call it a
    > "practice". I got absolutely no value from that transaction and I find
    > the self-serving and self-policing nature of the industry to be a problem.
    > It seems all about status. I'm not sure if I want an attorney with a
    > Porsche and a Million Dollar home, or the person who drives a beat up Chevy,
    > but I'm struggling with it in my head.
    >
    > So my complaint is relative. To me it is like paying $40 for loaf of bread.
    > It just shouldn't cost that much. Who decides these rates? How can anyone
    > justify $300-$400 an hour for family law? I realize expertise and
    > experience ant time costs money. But what is a fair exchange? Frankly, I
    > have found you in particular to seem to break my cynical view in several
    > ways, not the least of which is offering so much help here for free. I'm
    > sure it is good marketing for you, but I know you don't have to do it and
    > you would still be able to bill all of your billable hours for the month.
    > God bless you.
    >
    > The majority of attorney's I talked to regarding a divorce case and an AOS
    > case were not helpful and it was clear all that mattered was the money. I
    > HAVE found others who were willing to negotiate, it just took a while and a
    > lot of calls. Even then it is still pretty much over $150 an hour for
    > anything here in the southeast. I suppose, confess and apologize that I
    > consulted with attorney firms for several years and saw them from the
    > inside, so I am tainted by that frightful experience. A good friend of
    > mine was a very successful attorney and is now a Senator. I think a good
    > one. It gives one hope. Maybe he will get some reforms. I've vented now,
    > thanks for the debate.
    >
    > -f
    >
    > > Hi:
    > >
    > > I don't know where you live and I don't anything about your case, so I
    > > can't really comment about the amount of a fee.
    > >
    > > Although I often do work on a flat fee basis, my retainer agreement has
    > > a paragraph that if I am REQUIRED to do work outside of the scope of the
    > > flat fee, I will bill for that work on an hourly basis and set my rate.
    > >
    > > What I DON'T say is that I will not perform the work if I don't get paid
    > > that rate. The reason I don't say that is becuase I am not allowed to
    > > abandon my client "on the courthouse steps". I can't and I don't. I've
    > > done a lot of work which ended up being "free" to that particular
    > > client. In setting my flat fees, I anticpate that I MIGHT be required
    > > to do work for which I will never be paid. But I never say "you've
    > > exhausted your retainer, you need legal services NOW and I ain't doing
    > > them." If I can I will stabilze the matter so that the client in that
    > > situation will have some time to get the $$ together and hire me or
    > > another attorney. But an attorney cannot abandon a client, even a
    > > non-paying one without risking her own license to practice law.
    > >
    > > Many of you may have noted the lengths that Matt Udall and I go to
    > > emphasize that we don't have an attorney-client relationship with the
    > > posters on this board. That is why.
    > >
    > > --
    > > Certified Specialist, Immigration & Nat. Law, Cal. Bar Board of Legal
    > Specialization
    > >
    > >
    > > Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Hi,
I'm trying to understand the where the perception that it's
malpractice awards that drive up the cost of malpractice insurance and
hence medical costs. It seems that only the most egregious of medical
errors and outcomes ever make it to court, as the cases are so
expensive to litigate. Maybe it's because the errors jurors get to
see are so horrible that awards are so high. Maybe a 250,000 cap on
non-economic damages would make sense if it didn't take anywhere from
5 to 7 years to get to court...but when you divide 250000 between the
years and the number of people in a family who are impacted by the
error...it becomes a sick joke. It especially hurts women who may not
work outside the home or the elderly who no longer have an impact.
It's expensive to litigate because the doctors and their insurance
companies delay and obfuscate and do their best to make the victim
into the villain for suing the poor doctor. And of course no jury gets
told that money that's awarded goes first to reimburse the plaintiff's
INSURANCE companies. Makes you wonder what they've collected their
premiums for or why no one questions that they're collecting twice...
Jule