Freedomtrail

Help,

I realize that there are different quality ratings of attorneys and that
dollars are no indicator of how good they are. I realize they should get a
"fair" wage for their services. I see "flat rate" houses out there offering
AOS packages for $500. But it seems as if you want to get an attorney to
help personally if your case may have "issues", they want at least $200 an
hour and a $750 retainer. I can't even afford the retainer let alone what
could easily wind up being $5000 of more for what I see might be a minimum
of help or insurance if something goes wrong. I mean if an attorney had to
show up at a hearing for you and billed for their drive time and sitting in
the hallway, you could have $1000 just for a 10 minute court appearance.
You have no promise of an upper limit, you could get halfway and run out of
money, then have nothing and have to send your wife back home because you
can't defend yourself. What options are there for people? Are there any
good attorneys that work on a sliding scale or offer payment terms? Will
any let you do the work and just get advice and have them there in case you
get denied and have to have an attorney make a call for you? Other than
corporate clients, where do they get people who can possibly afford this,
especially immigrants??? Thanks.

-f

Mrtravel

I just paid a plumber $70+ for a 5 minute house call.
My company bills my time in excess of $300 per hour.
How much does your doctor bill you per hour? How much of the hour does
he spend with you?
It's all relative.
There are legal clinics that might help. They should be easy to find in
the phone book.
I believe they are sometimes called Legal Aid offices.

For people on tight budgets, it is possible to go through the process
without a lawyer.
There is a lot of good info found here and elsewhere. You might be able
to get a lawyer to review your documents, etc before you send them in,
or to only assist you if you have a problem.

The documents themselves aren't extremely complicated. If the immigrant
has no past legal or previous INS wrong doings, then there generally
isn't a problem.

Question number 1.

Do you pay someone to do your 1040 and accompanying forms?



FreedomTrail wrote:
    >
    > Help,
    >
    > I realize that there are different quality ratings of attorneys and that
    > dollars are no indicator of how good they are. I realize they should get a
    > "fair" wage for their services. I see "flat rate" houses out there offering
    > AOS packages for $500. But it seems as if you want to get an attorney to
    > help personally if your case may have "issues", they want at least $200 an
    > hour and a $750 retainer. I can't even afford the retainer let alone what
    > could easily wind up being $5000 of more for what I see might be a minimum
    > of help or insurance if something goes wrong. I mean if an attorney had to
    > show up at a hearing for you and billed for their drive time and sitting in
    > the hallway, you could have $1000 just for a 10 minute court appearance.
    > You have no promise of an upper limit, you could get halfway and run out of
    > money, then have nothing and have to send your wife back home because you
    > can't defend yourself. What options are there for people? Are there any
    > good attorneys that work on a sliding scale or offer payment terms? Will
    > any let you do the work and just get advice and have them there in case you
    > get denied and have to have an attorney make a call for you? Other than
    > corporate clients, where do they get people who can possibly afford this,
    > especially immigrants??? Thanks.
    >
    > -f

Rete

Your point being? Attorneys charge fees. Some for the whole fangdangle and some for just filing. Some are hourly and some are set fees. There are pro bono attorneys available to deserving immigrants and there are agencies that help only particular filers, i.e. abused spouses, on a sliding scale. And there are also attorneys that will provide a 1/2 hour consultation for $75 to $100. If you feel that your case needs an attorney it is well worth doing without some luxuries until you can afford one to help you over the bad spots.

Folinskyinla

Hi:

I don't know where you live and I don't anything about your case, so I can't really comment about the amount of a fee.

Although I often do work on a flat fee basis, my retainer agreement has a paragraph that if I am REQUIRED to do work outside of the scope of the flat fee, I will bill for that work on an hourly basis and set my rate.

What I DON'T say is that I will not perform the work if I don't get paid that rate. The reason I don't say that is becuase I am not allowed to abandon my client "on the courthouse steps". I can't and I don't. I've done a lot of work which ended up being "free" to that particular client. In setting my flat fees, I anticpate that I MIGHT be required to do work for which I will never be paid. But I never say "you've exhausted your retainer, you need legal services NOW and I ain't doing them." If I can I will stabilze the matter so that the client in that situation will have some time to get the $$ together and hire me or another attorney. But an attorney cannot abandon a client, even a non-paying one without risking her own license to practice law.

Many of you may have noted the lengths that Matt Udall and I go to emphasize that we don't have an attorney-client relationship with the posters on this board. That is why.

Andrew Defaria

mrtravel wrote:

    > Question number 1.
    > Do you pay someone to do your 1040 and accompanying forms?

Ah, well, I don't! Then again I'm a Quicken nut (See
http://defaria.com/Quicken).

Andrew Defaria

FreedomTrail wrote:

    > Help,
    > I realize that there are different quality ratings of attorneys and
    > that dollars are no indicator of how good they are. I realize they
    > should get a "fair" wage for their services. I see "flat rate" houses
    > out there offering AOS packages for $500. But it seems as if you want
    > to get an attorney to help personally if your case may have "issues",
    > they want at least $200 an hour and a $750 retainer. I can't even
    > afford the retainer let alone what could easily wind up being $5000 of
    > more for what I see might be a minimum of help or insurance if
    > something goes wrong. I mean if an attorney had to show up at a
    > hearing for you and billed for their drive time and sitting in the
    > hallway, you could have $1000 just for a 10 minute court appearance.
    > You have no promise of an upper limit, you could get halfway and run
    > out of money, then have nothing and have to send your wife back home
    > because you can't defend yourself. What options are there for people?

You could spend like 6 years of your life and perhaps hundreds of
thousands of dollars of your money and become a compentent legal
professional yourself. That said $5000 is a bargain.

    > Are there any good attorneys that work on a sliding scale or offer
    > payment terms?

I'm sure there are. Question is: How good of legal representation are
you buying with that money?

    > Will any let you do the work and just get advice and have them there
    > in case you get denied and have to have an attorney make a call for you?

Sure you can do your own work. Depending on your circumstances it may
not be that difficult either (you don't allude to your circumstances).
Of course this may be risky. It's your choice and sure you can hire a
lawyer if you fail. But much like fixing your own car it could end up
being doublely expensive if you screw up for a competent professional
come in and fix what you messed up. It's like a lot of things in life.

    > Other than corporate clients, where do they get people who can
    > possibly afford this, especially immigrants???

I would think that often immigrants sponsers are affording this or
immigrants who are poor or don't have wealthy sponsers are getting
subpar legal representation. But such is life. Sorry. I know how you
feel but I cannot change what is.

    > -f

Andrew Defaria

Folinskyinla wrote:

    > But an attorney cannot abandon a client, even a non-paying one without
    > risking her own license to practice law.

That's an interesting statement and one I have not heard before. What
happens when a case runs into thousands of extra dollars due to
unforseen circumstances? Are you required to just eat the cost? I find
that hard to believe.

Folinskyinla

Hi:

Believe it -- it happens more often than my spouse would like. At any given time, we will have at least one case which has become the case from hell and we have to eat the time and continue working on it.

Its just part of the business and part of our professional obligation of loyalty to the client.

Joe

I just recently filed my own AOS packet without the aid of an
attorney. And I have had previous INS wrong doings (placed under
deportation proceedings back in 92, currently working unauthorized &
out-of-status), and minor criminal convictions (2 misdemeanors) in the
past 5 years.

But what can an attorney do for me during the initial filing? The
documents themselves are pretty straightforward to complete. You just
have to remember to be completely honest and disclose everything.
However, if the INS decides to make things complicated for me, as they
did back in 1992, I would be sure to hire the services of an attorney.
I think I paid $1000 to an attorney back then just so he can go to an
immigration hearing on my behalf and have the immigration judge extend
my voluntary departure date. I firmly believe that the INS and the
immigration judges look upon you less favorably if you do not have
some legal representation.

However, I don't anticipate any complications even though I have had
legal issues in the past, as my recent marriage to a US citizen is
genuine.



mrtravel wrote in message news:...

    > The documents themselves aren't extremely complicated. If the immigrant
    > has no past legal or previous INS wrong doings, then there generally
    > isn't a problem.
    >
    > Question number 1.
    >
    > Do you pay someone to do your 1040 and accompanying forms?

Folinskyinla

Hi:

Its early in the morning and you are making me LOL. Please consult and attorney AT ONCE. Yes the forms are straightforward, but you don't anticipate problems??? You may be OK depending on some details which you don't descirbe, but your fact scenario SCREAMS that you may have problems. If you don't chose to have an attorney, your US citizen wife should know who to call if, when you show up for an intervier, the interview is cut off before it begins when you are arrested.

BTW, the fees would be a lot higher in those circumstances than if you hired an attorney now.

Good luck.

Scarlett

    >I just recently filed my own AOS packet without the aid of an
    >attorney. And I have had previous INS wrong doings (placed under
    >deportation proceedings back in 92, currently working unauthorized &
    >out-of-status), and minor criminal convictions (2 misdemeanors) in the
    >past 5 years.
....snip.....
    >However, I don't anticipate any complications even though I have had
    >legal issues in the past, as my recent marriage to a US citizen is
    >genuine.


i'm sorry.... you're currently working illegally and don't anticipate any
problems adjusting status?

the mind boggles!

-=-
scarlett

Rete

Actually the working might not be a problem as long as he is not using fraudulent documents or has made fraudulent claims to be a US citizen. It is the deportation charge and the 2 criminal convictions that might prove to have him sent back to where he came even though he has apparently been living, working and enjoying the US as home for at least 10 years.

Rete

Andrew Defaria

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Folinskyinla wrote:

    >> That's an interesting statement and one I have not heard before. What
    >> happens when a case runs into thousands of extra dollars due to
    >> unforseen circumstances? Are you required to just eat the cost? I
    >> find that hard to believe.
    > Hi:
    > Believe it -- it happens more often than my spouse would like. At any
    > given time, we will have at least one case which has become the case
    > from hell and we have to eat the time and continue working on it.
    > Its just part of the business and part of our professional obligation
    > of loyalty to the client.

I guess that's true if your and honest lawyer (Isn't that an oxymoron?
    :-) It's a joke!). But wouldn't a lot of lawyers simply risk the law
suit assuming the client will not be able to pay for it anyway?

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Folinskyinla wrote:

That's an interesting statement and one I have
not heard before. What happens when a case runs into thousands of extra dollars
due to unforseen circumstances? Are you required to just eat the cost? I
find that hard to believe.

Hi:

Believe it -- it happens more often than my spouse would like. At any given
time, we will have at least one case which has become the case from hell
and we have to eat the time and continue working on it.

Its just part of the business and part of our professional obligation of
loyalty to the client.

I guess that's true if your and honest lawyer (Isn't that an oxymoron? :-) Â It's a joke!). But wouldn't
a lot of lawyers simply risk the law suit assuming the client will not be
able to pay for it anyway?



--------------050308010104040800020704--

Freedomtrail

Luxuries? What about people who simply don't have it? They haven't had a
vacation in 5 years, their company is laying off another round of workers,
they have 2 kids in school and the color TV now only works in black and
white. We are talking about immigrant families here, or future American's,
or even the average American family. I would love to know how many American
families have $3000 is cash available in an emergency for anything, let
alone attorney fees. My point is about value. I can buy a DVD player with
amazing technology and the ability to entertain me for years for under $200.
But there are attorney's in million dollar mansions charging $300 per hour
to fill out a form for you. It's ridiculous and absurd. They don't provide
that much value, not to most people since most can't afford them. And it's
not like you can say, "but if they get you out of a jam, what's the value to
you for that?". Well, who writes the laws and puts them in place to be
purposely difficult, obtuse and full of crazy regulations and stipulations
so as to require an attorney? Could it be...... attorneys? The bar
association is as powerful as the gun lobby and since most of congress and
the senate are attorney's by trade, do you think they will ever institute
anything that doesn't serve them? I believe our country needs major tort
reform, control of attorney fees, health care reform, and even automobile
repair reform. Sorry for sticking that one in there, but everything else at
least in my life has a somewhat moderately affordable value to price ratio,
my complaint areas are quickly pricing themselves out of the ballpark for
most people. We are going to be a group of toothless, limping, indigent
homeless people without transportation or credit because we can't defend
ourselves against frivolous claims and bankrupt government institutions.

-f

"Rete" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Your point being? Attorneys charge fees. Some for the whole fangdangle
    > and some for just filing. Some are hourly and some are set fees.
    > There are pro bono attorneys available to deserving immigrants and there
    > are agencies that help only particular filers, i.e. abused spouses, on a
    > sliding scale. And there are also attorneys that will provide a 1/2
    > hour consultation for $75 to $100. If you feel that your case needs an
    > attorney it is well worth doing without some luxuries until you can
    > afford one to help you over the bad spots.

Freedomtrail

Good point, and I know that part of your attorney/client relationship in not
abandoning clients. Perhaps just like medical malpractice cases are driving
up medical insurance to the point doctors are abandoning certain medical
areas and those left are charging rates we can't afford (attorney's again
     ), attorney's afraid of having to work pro bono are charging exorbitant
fees, asking for large retainers, or billing hour after hour. It frightens
people. I went to one attorney for my $100 "consult", wound up finding I
knew more than them, they then did "research" to figure out how to tell me
what I already knew, and then billed me $380 all without saying anything
about it going over my consult! If I wanted someone who wasn't already an
expert, I would have done it myself. Now I know why they call it a
"practice". I got absolutely no value from that transaction and I find
the self-serving and self-policing nature of the industry to be a problem.
It seems all about status. I'm not sure if I want an attorney with a
Porsche and a Million Dollar home, or the person who drives a beat up Chevy,
but I'm struggling with it in my head.

So my complaint is relative. To me it is like paying $40 for loaf of bread.
It just shouldn't cost that much. Who decides these rates? How can anyone
justify $300-$400 an hour for family law? I realize expertise and
experience ant time costs money. But what is a fair exchange? Frankly, I
have found you in particular to seem to break my cynical view in several
ways, not the least of which is offering so much help here for free. I'm
sure it is good marketing for you, but I know you don't have to do it and
you would still be able to bill all of your billable hours for the month.
God bless you.

The majority of attorney's I talked to regarding a divorce case and an AOS
case were not helpful and it was clear all that mattered was the money. I
HAVE found others who were willing to negotiate, it just took a while and a
lot of calls. Even then it is still pretty much over $150 an hour for
anything here in the southeast. I suppose, confess and apologize that I
consulted with attorney firms for several years and saw them from the
inside, so I am tainted by that frightful experience. A good friend of
mine was a very successful attorney and is now a Senator. I think a good
one. It gives one hope. Maybe he will get some reforms. I've vented now,
thanks for the debate.

-f

    > Hi:
    > I don't know where you live and I don't anything about your case, so I
    > can't really comment about the amount of a fee.
    > Although I often do work on a flat fee basis, my retainer agreement has
    > a paragraph that if I am REQUIRED to do work outside of the scope of the
    > flat fee, I will bill for that work on an hourly basis and set my rate.
    > What I DON'T say is that I will not perform the work if I don't get paid
    > that rate. The reason I don't say that is becuase I am not allowed to
    > abandon my client "on the courthouse steps". I can't and I don't. I've
    > done a lot of work which ended up being "free" to that particular
    > client. In setting my flat fees, I anticpate that I MIGHT be required
    > to do work for which I will never be paid. But I never say "you've
    > exhausted your retainer, you need legal services NOW and I ain't doing
    > them." If I can I will stabilze the matter so that the client in that
    > situation will have some time to get the $$ together and hire me or
    > another attorney. But an attorney cannot abandon a client, even a
    > non-paying one without risking her own license to practice law.
    > Many of you may have noted the lengths that Matt Udall and I go to
    > emphasize that we don't have an attorney-client relationship with the
    > posters on this board. That is why.
    > --
    > Certified Specialist, Immigration & Nat. Law, Cal. Bar Board of Legal
Specialization
    > Posted via http://britishexpats.com