Question: What happens IF a K3 is denied?
 

Hi All -

My hubby was asking today what happens if, after all we've submitted (sent via courier to the Consular Section on 12/27) in the way of evidence as well as the correct tax transcripts they requested at his interview, etc..., the Consular Officer in Cairo won't give him a K3 visa. I told him I wasn't sure but I'd ask the NG. I'm assuming the K3 isn't an "all or nothing" visa, right?

Do they have to give him/us a reason? If so, when? In writing? What is our "Plan B"? I assume our I-130 will make its way to the top of the heap at the NSC sometime this year and get to Cairo before the end of the year. Do we just wait for that and hope for a different Consular Officer? Should file for DCF? I was planning a visit there after we hear one way or the other from the Consulate anyway. If it's good news, I'll go over to fly back with him and if it's not, well, we'll need to be together.

I know I might be jumping the gun as we haven't actually been denied but knowing what our options are, in a strange way, will be comforting. You know the old saw, "Knowledge is power" kind of thing.

If anyone has actually experienced a K3 denial with a subsequent success story, I'd love for you to post here. Otherwise any and all advice is appreciated.

Patty Khadijah

Re: Question: What happens IF a K3 is denied?
 

You are further ahead of us on the K3. So I can't share with you on a denial exp because we are not there yet.

In my opinion, a person can be denied a K3 for the following 3 reasons.
1. They don't believe the marriage is genuine.
2. USC can't prove his/her financial resource
3. Alien has past visa violation

If one is denied a K3 because of #1 & 2, he/she will still have the same problem with I-130 unless they build up a stronger case/ change their situation.

If one is denied due to #3, then it depends on the violation. Some violation will prevent one from getting a K3 but not a Green Card. For example, an alien overstayed on a visitor visa for one month. If the consulate is not happy, it's possible they can deny the alien a K3. Both a visitor and a K3 are NON-immigrant visa. A person messes with one before, it jeopardizes the chance for getting a new one in the future. However, Green Card is an immigrant visa. So bad deeds with a non-immigrant visa in the past may not necessarily result in its denial.

Re: Question: What happens IF a K3 is denied?
 

Patty:

Go to this website and take a look at some of the notes and procedural notes from the Department of State Foreign Affairs Manual.

http://foia.state.gov/REGS/Search.asp

Take a close look at 9 FAM 121...but the entire chapter 9 FAM is filled with interesting information.

Dad of 3

Re: Question: What happens IF a K3 is denied?
 

Patty:

There are denials and then there are denials. There is a big difference between what I call a "hard" denial and what I call a "soft" denial.

A "hard" denial is something is very very wrong that results in a finding of inadmissiblity.

A "soft" denial is one that can be fixed.

Re: Question: What happens IF a K3 is denied?
 

Folinskynia - You are a silver lining in the clouds. I know those few selected words you wrote to this question were well chosen and made a lot of sense. I think you put a lot of good people's rest easier tonight. Thanks for all you do

Re: Question: What happens IF a K3 is denied?
 

Patty,

What are you so worried about? It will be Ok. I certainly don't want to see you denied. I think your fears are getting the best of you. Neither one of you has done anything wrong and nothing is going to happen that can't be fixed. Listen to Folinsky. Everything is going to be Ok (eventually). :)

Leslie

Re: Question: What happens IF a K3 is denied?
 

I totally understand the concepts of:

1. Always imagine the worst
2. Always have a Plan B
3. Always ask "what if"?

I just know things will be fine for you and Abdo.

HUGS,
Rene

Re: Question: What happens IF a K3 is denied?
 

Patty,

I know this is a question you should be asking. I've been paranoid and wondering about it as well. If you're denied for any reason, it's going to be because of the VCO. And I think that qualifies as a soft denial. Anyhow, if you do choose to do DCF, I learned from the consulate that you don't have to be physically present when you file. They say you have to be present to take an oath on the petition, but if you file P3 at the same time as the petition, you could just be there for the final interview and take the oath there. So basically, you can prepare everything and send it to Abdo (and have him prepare his share of documents) and then have him send everything TNT to the consulate. They'll then send him a letter with his visa interview appointment, which would be about 3 months (educated guesstimate) from the time he sends them the package. If I had known about this much earlier, it would have been a no-brainer option for me. I feel so dumb when I realize that my husband could have been here months ago if I had only listened to him and filed DCF while I was in Egypt. (No way I'm admitting that to him! :p)

Re: Question: What happens IF a K3 is denied?
 

Thanks, Leslie/Noorah/Folinskyinla.

Right now I'm more frustrated than fearful. I'm not known for my patience and Cairo hasn't answered my emails inquiring about what we can expect now that they have all our evidence. Unfortunately, they're probably backlogged due to the holidays and short work weeks and I'll just have to wait.

I keep telling myself that eventually (as you say) they have to believe we're truly married and approve his visa. However, unlike objective reasons for denial such as a criminal background, disease, or lack of sponsor resources - determining whether a marriage is valid, e.g., no intent to commit fraud, is very, very subjective. In our case, we're left with hoping the Consular Officer - probably the same one who doubts our ability to communicate - believes two people from completely different worlds can fall in love - especially when one of them is a 31 year old unemployed Egyptian.

In my line of work (quality management systems and the development of international standards in this area) we deal a lot with processes. So, I just want to know the process. What happens if this Consular Officer doesn't want to believe all the evidence we submitted? What are our options then? Do we have the option to plead our case to some "higher authority"? If we get a "soft" denial, will we know what the reasons are so we can "fix" them? What happens if while we're "fixing" something, our I-130 is approved and makes its way to Cairo?

Like Noorah said, one should always have a "Plan B". I'm really not sitting around like "40 days rain" - as my Mama would say. But I also believe in "forewarned is forearmed". The more I know and understand about what can and can't happen from here on out, the better we'll be able to quickly respond to whatever is required. God willing, we'll hear good news soon and won't need to do anything else. But, if we have some bumps ahead of us, I'd want to know what to do. Also, since my husband is still concerned, having an answer for him will make him feel better, too, like a light at the end of the tunnel, so-to-speak.

Patty Khadijah

Re: Question: What happens IF a K3 is denied?
 

This is good info about DCF. I guessing that if one gets a soft denial, then options such as waiting for the I-130 and DCF are still open. Hopefully, this will be clarified by one of our legal experts.

Here's another queston based on your info. Since the Consulate now has our evidence - would we get it back after a "soft" denial? Much of what they have is originals - especially in the case of my husband's P3 documents. We'd need these for either the I-130 or DCF petitions.

I promise when our hubbies meet, I won't spill your secret!

Patty

Re: Question: What happens IF a K3 is denied?
 

Whew,

What a relief!!! :o

I don't know if the consulate will return your doucments or not. I guess that is a question to ask them. I wouldn't send originals if I could avoid it. The police and military certificates are easily replaceable, but not the birth certificate. My husband just got his birth certificate this week after months of trying.

Re: Question: What happens IF a K3 is denied?
 

Heba! I see both our guys were having trouble in the birth certificate area, for different reasons! Sadegh also has been trying to get his for a couple of months, and as you know is in Iran now getting it - Inshallah! :-))) I, for one, never imagined it would all be this time-consuming and complex. But I know it will be well worth it :-) Glad your hubby got his docs in order :-)

Rene

Re: Question: What happens IF a K3 is denied?
 

Personally I think if the case is all about proving a bona fide marriage, you need to confront the same issue regardless of how you file it - K3, DCF or whatever.

I have heard of the gov failed to catch people who committed marriage fraud, but I've never heard of them flunking people who are truely in love and married!

If Cairo wants to deny the visa because they don't believe the marriage is bona fide, they have to show something more than just a consular staff with a bad hunch.

Look at the bright side. Yes, they are doubting him when they asked for more info, but equally they are doubting themselves too! Had the consulate been able to show something solid against him, they would have denied his visa by now.

His approval is when not if. To speed things up in convincing the gov, personally I would start to build things around a married life such as having joint credit card account, shooting family photos with parents/relatives included... Do things that a married couple do and keep a record of it, you know.

Best Wishes!

Re: Question: What happens IF a K3 is denied?
 

Khadija,

My husband (then fiancee) was denied for his K1. They did give all the originals back. We had three choices when they denied and sent the petition back. One, we could wait for the re-evaluation of the K1 petition, file a new petition, or do DCF. We chose DCF in Cyprus. At that point I was so emotional that I did not want to deal with the consulate in Abu Dhabi. The good news is he was approved and came under an immigrant visa versus the K1. Good luck and it will eventually work out.

Re: Question: What happens IF a K3 is denied?
 

That worked out because he was a K1 applicant, and your next option was to get married and do DCF. You went a totally different route from the original plan. Since Patty and Abdo are already married, it kind of limits the options, doesn't it? They can't switch gears from a K1 to a K3. I wonder, though, if they could choose another embassy to work with if Cairo gives them as hard a time as Abu Dhabi did for you. Being Egyptian, does he have to use Cairo? Now I'm curious to know a solid answer myself! :-)

Rene

Re: Question: What happens IF a K3 is denied?
 

Patty,

I re-read my post from last nigh and realized how insensitive I sounded. Of course you have every right to worry about these things. If you can imagine, it never crossed my mind that we would get denied. I'm glad you waited to post this thread. ;) You know what though, I have read other posts where people had to provide more proof of this or that, it seems like they always got approved after doing so.

I wish you nothing but the best.

Leslie

Re: Question: What happens IF a K3 is denied?
 

Leslie,

I never thought you anything but the best of intentions in your post!

Until his interview, I, too, never imagined anything negative. I knew we had to be thorough and we might have a few more hoops evidence-wise than other due to our age difference and his unemployment but I never dreamed we'd be in this limbo waiting for the other shoe to drop.

It does seem that outright denial is rare. God willing we won't have to way another other options because his K3 will eventually be approved. However, I'm the kind of person who likes to know the "worst case scenario" so I'm prepared. Hopefully, someone can give us a "step 1, step 2..." of what one does to turn "soft" denials into approvals!

FYI, I just checked the NSC timeline and my date for my I-130 is creeping up! They're up to 7/5/02 and mine is 7/23/02! If Cairo takes much longer, we might be working on is I-130 at this rate!

Cheers,
Patty Khadijah

Re: Question: What happens IF a K3 is denied?
 

** bump **

Just wondering if anyone had any other ideas?

Re: Question: What happens IF a K3 is denied?
 

Rene,

We're lucky they even have birth certificates. There was a time when birth certificates weren't provided for everyone, esp if they lived in rural areas. There can be a lot of problems with them too, particularly when someone other than the parents records the birth or if they don't do it right away. I had a friend from Pakistan whose father never had a birth certificate. When he grew up and needed one, he had to make up a birthday because he didn't know how old he was. (Isn't that a blessing in disguise? If I didn't know my birthdate, I'd flatter myself and make myself 24 years old. ;)) There are even crazier stories if you want to hear them. :rolleyes:

Re: Question: What happens IF a K3 is denied?
 

Heba....here's a funny one. When Sadegh finally got a copy of his birth certificate translated, I was worried that the dates somehow wouldn't match up with what I had already filled in for him on the forms. When I received the translation he sent me, lo and behold, it says the year he was born is 1352! LOL They translated the year exactly....from the Persian calendar! They didn't bother translating the year into the Grigorian calendar. I left it as is. But man, that makes him sound 600 years old. Just call him Noah. LOL!

Re: Question: What happens IF a K3 is denied?
 

LOL. Cool. He's seen a lot of action these past 600 years. What's the usual life span for Iranaians? :p

Re: Question: What happens IF a K3 is denied?
 

Well, since he's only about 1/3 through his life span now, I'd say it must be 1800 years. LOL

Re: Question: What happens IF a K3 is denied?
 

As I understand things they do have to give you a reason in writing and advise you as to whether or not there is a waiver available. I am very interested in this matter as we have a greater chance than most for a denial. I have read the code line by line and for every possible problem that we may encouter a waiver is available. It doesn't mean that they have to issue one; just, that they may issue one at their discretion. We will know on Feb. 9 I suppose.

Re: Question: What happens IF a K3 is denied?
 

Limits them to some extent but DCF could still be an option. They would need to find an embassy that would take the case -- she may get another embassy to agree under a humanitarian case, some will depending on the circumstances.

Re: Question: What happens IF a K3 is denied?
 

As for DCF, couldn't still go through Cairo but request a different Consular Officer? Same for waiting for our I-130 to make its way there?

Patty Khadijah

Re: Question: What happens IF a K3 is denied?
 

I would think it depends why the K visa was denied. If it were for example a CIMT, or fraud, or misrepresentation do you really think that you can forum shop and get approved at another consulate?

Re: Question: What happens IF a K3 is denied?
 

I doubt we'd use any other Consulate. I believe Mr. F. noted we can ask for a different ConOff (correct me if I'm wrong Mr. F.).

If it's denied it would be for reasons related to this ConOff's cynical misbelief that our marriage can't be real, e.g., why else would a 31 year old unemployed man marry a 44 year old chubby woman with a decent job if it not for a GC. Her animosity stems from him asking to have his interview in Arabic. She automatically jumped to the conclusion he couldn't speak any English and then jumped even further by accusing him of not being able to communicate sufficiently with me to be really married. She then seemed bothered by the fact that we didn't rush to submit the I-130 and K3 petitions. In both cases, she'd cut him off before he could give her answers to her questions. The final glitch was not having the tax transcripts so she sent him home with a note to send in the transcripts.

Afterward, the Consulate agreed via email we could send in our photos of us with family, of our flat in Cairo, videos of us at his sister's engagement party and wedding, letters, phone bills, proof of adding him to my health & life insurance, bank statements from our joint checking account, photos and passport stamps to show he's traveled with me on two business trips, etc... I wrote a letter detailing our ability to fully communicate plus I had two colleagues who spent time with us on these business trips write letters stating they could communicate with him. If we had it - we sent it in on the 28th of last month and mind you, our evidence spans 2 1/2 years of a relationship. The problem now is it seems to have gone in a big black hole. I've emailed the Consulate to confirm they have our documents as well as to ask what we can expect in terms of timing but have receive no response.

I'm fairly confident that, if the ConOff just looks at what we submitted, we'll be OK. I'm just nervous they won't look at the evidence. Can they ignore what a petitioner and beneficiary submit???

Patty Khadijah

Re: Question: What happens IF a K3 is denied?
 

Rene,

Well, at least you're not a cradle robber anymore. :D:D

Heba,

Neither one of my husband's parents have a birth certificate. They don't know their birthdays. I like astrology so I always ask for birth dates. When I asked his Mom's birthday they all just shrugged. Khalid said "We know the year but that's all." A lot of it had to do with home births and midwifery, and as you said just no reliable record keeping system in place yet.