Hamid

Hello every body,

I am an Algerian citizen , we would like apply me and my fiancée for I-129f , but we
never meet each other in person , this is for many reason

1- I tried to get B-1 visa , but my request was denied (because of
214(b) & 101(a)(15) of INA) 2- My fiancée could not come to me neither to my
country nor an other because of 3 reasons:

First: she is unemployed , so she have not the necessary money to come

Second: my fiancée is from conservative family , so her father forbad her to go
anywhere outside USA ,

Third: the Algerian penal law forbid meeting of no married couple

This is the section 347 of Algerian penal law , they use this section to forbid
meeting of no married couple

“Article 347 (ordinance number 82-04 dated on February 13th,
215) Is sentenced to 6 months until 2 years of prison and to a fine of 1.000 to
20.000DA, anyone who through gesture, words, writings or any other way proceeds
publicly to solicit persons of both sexes in order to incite them to
debauchery. The attempt is sentenced by the same sentences as the committed
offence.”


Do I have any chance to get my fiancé visa without meeting? If yes, what documents
must I get? (Is a signed sheet from her father and copy certified from Algerian
lawyer of section 347 is sufficient to get it?

Paul

I'm sure I'll sound really ignorant but how does a man from Algeria meet a woman if
he can't be seen in public with one? How did you get engaged w/o meeting though? I
come from a conservative (and really religious) family and I'd say there is something
wrong with her dad? Before 09/11/01 I always said I'd never travel outside the US
because of people from a certain part of this world that seem to cause many problems.
I wasn't afraid of anything when I went to RU the last two times but dad said "I'd
never go there...no way" To say the least it was no luxury cruise. We looked at a few
apt's to rent when ours didn't have cold water for 8 days. It was an eye opener. I've
never seen such things in my life. SO

being conservative has nothing to do with it......what is his real reason? Can't she
find another relative to loan some money? Don't these parents care about her
happiness? That is what I'd ask her dad anyway.

Rete

More importantly don't they have to prove that you were trying to illict an debauched relationship before you can be arrested? Are you planning on bedding her when you two are together?

On the issue of the I-129F if it were to be approved in the service center you would not be approved at the US Consulate/ Why? Because she is unemployed and her parents won't approve of your marriage so who is going to be financial sponsor?

My parental thoughts on this is that she is best served to find a job and earn money for plane fare to go and met you in another country. Someone that young should not be marrying someone they have never laid eyes on. But that is just me speaking as a parent.

Rete

Melissa

It may be an arranged marriage with a Muslim woman in the US. It is common in many
Muslim countries to marry someone you have not dated, although usually you have seen
each other, and maybe even spoken to each other. A Muslim family in the US might
quite well arrange a marriage with a family back home who has a son of the right age
and suitability. The question on my mind though, is whether or not he can qualify for
extreme hardship. In Morocco, where MY fiancé is from, it is a custom to arrange
marriage, but usually the couple meet first. It is by no means the LAW that they
cannot meet. In devout families the couple cannot be alone together before marriage,
but they can and do meet at social gatherings, or with family members as chaperones.


"Rete" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > More importantly don't they have to prove that you were trying to illict an
    > debauched relationship before you can be arrested? Are you planning on bedding her
    > when you two are together?
    > On the issue of the I-129F if it were to be approved in the service center you
    > would not be approved at the US Consulate/ Why? Because she is unemployed and her
    > parents won't approve of your marriage so who is going to be financial sponsor?
    > My parental thoughts on this is that she is best served to find a job and earn
    > money for plane fare to go and met you in another country. Someone that young
    > should not be marrying someone they have never laid eyes on. But that is just me
    > speaking as a parent.
    > Rete
    > --
    > Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Just Jenney

I highly doubt this is an "arranged marriage," because he would have said it was an arranged marriage. Instead, he's gone on about how strict and conservative her parents are, and about this Algerian "debauchery law."

I have some questions for Hamid:

1) How is it possible that your future father-in-law would object to his adult daughter travelling outside the country, but does NOT object to her marrying a foreigner whom neither she nor her father has ever met face-to-face?

2) If your girlfriend is old enough to get married, why is she allowing her parents to dictate whom she can go to travel to meet?

3) How is being in a relationship "publicly soliciting persons of both sexes in order to incite them to debauchery"?? In other words, how can you possibly be breaking this law just by meeting and spending time with someone you love? Does being with your loved one -- even if unmarried -- automatically mean you're "inciting them to debauchery"?

This law you cite is a very big stretch. You've posted this question on the NG at least twice, and have received similar responses both times, so I'm guessing you're looking for someone to give you an answer you want to hear. But I honestly don't think that's going to happen.

I agree with Rita -- you and your girlfriend need to concentrate on figuring out how to meet in person, which you should do anyway, not just to satisfy this requirement. If her parents are against it, then all the more reason you should meet -- if they're this controlling of her now, that's not going to end just because she marries you. She needs to get a job and save up for a trip, plus the expenses which come from applying for a K1 and supporting you once you're here. Also, you could send her money to help pay her travel expenses. If you are serious about being together, you can both make this happen.

Either way, I think it's very important to meet before you decide to take this incredibly big step in your lives. It's one of the requirements of the K1 that I happen to think is there for a good reason.

~ Jenney

Paul

oh, so visit and have a pseudo wedding to satisfy the natives or do it for real :O)

mailmena

I found a couple sites (http://www.portermatthews.com/k-1.htm), including http://travel.state.gov/visa;fiancee.html that saids .......
"The Attorney General may waive the requirement of a prior meeting if it can be shown that it is not customary to meet prior to marriage in an alien's particular culture or religion."

Margaret

[email protected] (hamid) wrote in message
news:<[email protected] om>...
    > Hello every body,
    > I am an Algerian citizen , we would like apply me and my fiancée for I-129f , but
    > we never meet each other in person , this is for many reason
    > 1- I tried to get B-1 visa , but my request was denied (because of
    > 214(b) & 101(a)(15) of INA) 2- My fiancée could not come to me neither to my
    > country nor an other because of 3 reasons:
    > First: she is unemployed , so she have not the necessary
    > money to come
    > Second: my fiancée is from conservative family , so her father forbad her to
    > go anywhere outside USA ,
    > Third: the Algerian penal law forbid meeting of no married couple
    > This is the section 347 of Algerian penal law , they use this section to forbid
    > meeting of no married couple
    > “Article 347 (ordinance number 82-04 dated on February 13th,
    > 1982) Is sentenced to 6 months until 2 years of prison and to a fine of 1.000 to
    > 20.000DA, anyone who through gesture, words, writings or any other way
    > proceeds publicly to solicit persons of both sexes in order to incite them
    > to debauchery. The attempt is sentenced by the same sentences as the
    > committed offence.”
    > Do I have any chance to get my fiancé visa without meeting? > If yes, what
    > documents must I get? (Is a signed sheet from her father and copy certified from
    > Algerian lawyer of section 347 is sufficient to get it?




Two comments here....one of the conditions of being able to get a Fiance Visa through
the U.S. Embassy/Consulate is that your fiancee must show proof that she can support
you in the U.S. however she is unemployed and is not able to afford to visit you as
it is, so what now? Who will be supporting you? The other condition is that you have
had to met your fiancee face to face in the past 2 years.

I don't know what I can advise you but wanted to point out these 2 conditions to you.

Margaret (Canadian now living in U.S. via K-1)

Folinskyiinla

Rete <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
    > More importantly don't they have to prove that you were trying to illict an
    > debauched relationship before you can be arrested? Are you planning on bedding her
    > when you two are together?

    > My parental thoughts on this is that she is best served to find a job and earn
    > money for plane fare to go and met you in another country. Someone that young
    > should not be marrying someone they have never laid eyes on. But that is just me
    > speaking as a parent.
    > Rete

Hi, Rete:

I've seen these "arranged marriages" from tiime to time, and as long as they are not
fraudulent or "solely" for immigration benefits, the law does allow for them. On the
I-130/485 arena, I've had a couple Muslim arranged marriages where the US citizen
girl is 17 -- and they went through the California State procedure of having obtained
judicial permission to marry. And when the husband comes back later for the 751 and
later naturalization, they are still married and have a kid. BTW, at least in my
experience, although the girls are young, the men are older and have entered into
business or a profession already.

I once had a case where the US citizen was young woman with a history of mental
illness. The Muslim family arranged for a suitable husband from India, a physician,
concealed the mental illness, had a large wedding in India, paid a large dowry and he
immigrated. This was done since she had no marriage prospects in the US. The
marriage broke up quite quickly. The wife then sued for annullment on the basis of
his marriage fraud. But most of the suit was demand for refund of the dowry. The
court found that dowry need not be returned, but made a finding of immigration fraud.
However, on the I-751, the INS disagreed with the court and waived the joint
petition. It was an interesting case.

karen86

Read the instructions right on the form I-129. It talks about this in the first few paragraphs:
'Who can file?'

Mrtrave;

I find it interesting that the penal code is in English.

If they are prosecuting people of the opposite sex for just talking, then their
interpretation of "debuachery" is not the normal one.

What prevents the people in question from meeting in another country? I understand if
their religion forbids them meeting in person, but AFAIK, they didn't mention that. I
think the biggest thing I got out of the original post was she didn't have any money
to travel to Algeria. In such different cultures, I would think you should meet them
in person first. Their have been many sad stories regarding people that marry someone
from a strict islamic country. I am not saying you are headed for one, but I can not
imagine deciding to marry someone from a country like that without first meeting the,

Rete

But he is not talking about an arranged marriage. I understand those and know that INS will bend to accommodate this type of marriage as long as the marriage has been or will be consummated.

This gentleman is affianced to a what appears to be a very young woman with no employment, current or past, living at home with Mom and Dad and under their thumb emotionally, financially and physically.

This is his SECOND post on this subject. His first being more informative on the living conditions of the USC then this one was.

Rete

rogerpenycate

215) Is sentenced to 6 months until 2 years of prison and to a fine of 1.000 to
20.000DA, anyone who through gesture, words, writings or any other way proceeds
publicly to solicit persons of both sexes in order to incite them to
debauchery. The attempt is sentenced by the same sentences as the committed
offence.”


I'm no expert or have any knowledge of Algerian law however
the way I read that, is if there is any involvement from a third party eg: advertising for couples to make blue movies !!
The word "solicit" jumps out at me.
I may have blown any credibility I have, that's the way I read it as I cannot see the word debauchery being used in any language in connection with "Love" and a relationship between
two people.
Come back Hamid and explain this law in more detail.

Hamid

Jenney &amp; Mark <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
    > Originally posted by Melissa:
    > > A Muslim family in the US might quite well arrange a marriage with a family back
    > > home who has a son of the right age and suitability.
    > I highly doubt this is an "arranged marriage," because he would have said it was an
    > arranged marriage. Instead, he's gone on about how strict and conservative her
    > parents are, and about this Algerian "debauchery law."
    > I have some questions for Hamid:
    > 1) How is it possible that your future father-in-law would object to his adult
    > daughter travelling outside the country, but does NOT object to her marrying a
    > foreigner whom neither she nor her father has ever met face-to-face?
    > 2) If your girlfriend is old enough to get married, why is she allowing her parents
    > to dictate whom she can go to travel to meet?
    > 3) How is being in a relationship "publicly soliciting persons of both sexes in
    > order to incite them to debauchery"?? In other words, how can you possibly be
    > breaking this law just by meeting and spending time with someone you love? Does
    > being with your loved one -- even if unmarried -- automatically mean you're
    > "inciting them to debauchery"?
    > This law you cite is a very big stretch. You've posted this question on the NG at
    > least twice, and have received similar responses both times, so I'm guessing you're
    > looking for someone to give you an answer you want to hear. But I honestly don't
    > think that's going to happen.
    > I agree with Rita -- you and your girlfriend need to concentrate on figuring out
    > how to meet in person, which you should do anyway, not just to satisfy this
    > requirement. If her parents are against it, then all the more reason you should
    > meet -- if they're this controlling of her now, that's not going to end just
    > because she marries you. She needs to get a job and save up for a trip, plus the
    > expenses which come from applying for a K1 and supporting you once you're here.
    > Also, you could send her money to help pay her travel expenses. If you are serious
    > about being together, you can both make this happen.
    > Either way, I think it's very important to meet before you decide to take this
    > incredibly big step in your lives. It's one of the requirements of the K1 that I
    > happen to think is there for a good reason.
    > ~ Jenney



hello everybody, thanks you a lot for these replies but I have to give some comment
and some clarification ,

1- I send the question twice because I thought my first one did not give all details
about my case and the algerian law , I like only know what is your opinion , because
we are in real world and we'll get what will happend not what we wish 2- about this
"algerian penal law , meeting dont automatically mean I am "inciting them to
debauchery", but , they can take you to prison if they like , on using this law , I
mean hier they apply law as they like for this I prefer dont run this risq ,

3- about her dad , its a long story , first time he did not accept this relationship
at all, but after I sent him many email he accept , but he said " its you who must
come to her if you like marry her ", I requested B1 visa to go , but it was denied ,
her dad did not know anything about visa and that's verry hard to come , this time I
am talking him to explain him , I guess it will take several months , for this I
liked apply for I 129 without meeting

4- my fiancée is adult she is 23 , but because she is unemployed she is financely
dependent to her dad , so she did not like do anything without dad permition , 5-
about support , I dont know , but I have question for you , could another person send
me I 134 , I have mom's cousin there ,


finally thank you again, I undertood that praticly impossible to get K1 visa without
meeting , we have to make this happen

rogerpenycate

All I can do is wish you both good luck, as one of the other posters has said, it may be possible due to you religious beliefs.

Good luck with your future and hopefully you will be together.