Firebird

I am a Dutch guy and I'd like to get married to an American girl.

After some searching 6 months ago I came to something called a "Fiance(e) Visa".
Sounded interesting, but it also said that there was a waiting period of at least 6
months. So I decided to go there on a Tourist Visa.

Customs in Philadelphia found me to be an interesting specimen and wanted to make
sure I was not going to work.

I then didn't find out a lot but had heard rumors during the 3 months I was in the
States. I might be able to get married. Then I had to leave the States but I came
back after about a week. Very costly.

It is now 3 months later. In the meanwhile I found out that I can get married on a
Tourist Visa under the Visa Waiver Pilot Program in the state of Nevada. Very costly.

But here's the kicker: I heard rumors that I could just get married anywhere by going
to the courthouse and asking for permission from a judge.

Now I spent 6 months being unemployed and in hardship, knowing I want to get married,
but found only opposition.

When I read on the official INS website that I need a Fiance(e) Visa and also
knew/heard rumors that application for a Visa under the Waiver program would get me
deported for 5 years, I thought I would HAVE to wait 6 months, and me and she weren't
prepared to deal with the emotional aspect of this. That cost me an incredible amount
of money and hasn't solved much.

My question is this: Is it true that I can get married whenever and wherever I want
when I am in the states on a Tourist Visa under the Visa Waiver Pilot Program.

And once I am married, is it dangerous to apply for a Visa on the basis of being
married, yet under the Visa Waiver Pilot Program? Do I risk deportation?

The INS website is not very informative or clear on these specific issues. It almost
seems as if they do not want you to know. That is why I am trying it on this medium.

Any help would certainly be very appreciated.

James Donovan

"Firebird" <[email protected]>
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >

Customs? I thought the INS was the one who inspected you upon entry?

    >
    >
    >
    >

You can get married anytime you want, but if you get married and try to adjust
status, you are probably going to encounter problems if the marriage took place less
than 60 days after your entry.

    >
    >
    >
    >

What's so costly about it? And yes, you can get married and your spouse can
petition for you if you entered under visa waiver, not just in the state of Nevada
but anywhere.

    >
    >
    >

Different states have different requirements. You usually require a marriage license
before you get married. See: http://www.kamya.com/misc/license.html

    >
    >
    >

What's the problem? Have you been in the US for 6 months? Overstayed your visa?

    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >

YOu sound like you haven't been interpreting the site wrongly. Most of it is
clear cut.

    >
    >
    >

Yes.

    >
    >
    >

No it isn't, and you don't risk deportation. However it would be ill advised if you
marry less than 60 days after entry on any visa except K-1.

Ranjini

Here is an url to an excellent site which will give you all the information you want
on this subject: http://www.mindspring.com/~docsteen/...o/visainfo.htm Accept the
disclaimer and click on the link "Tourist Adjustment" link from the menu on the left.
Hope this helps. Ranjini

    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
period
    >
    >
    >
to
    >
    >
    >
was
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
anywhere
    >
    >
    >
get
    >
    >
    >
    >
program
    >
months,
    >
    >
    >
    >
wherever
    >
Pilot
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
trying
    >
    >
    >
    >

Firebird

Thank you very much for your help.

I went to the USA twice for 3 months at a time. I was there on a Tourist Visa twice.

The trouble was that I had read about the Fiance(e) Visa. Nowhere on the INS site it
said that I could get married in the states WITHOUT this Visa.

I wonder: If I can get married on a Tourist Visa, then why does a Fiance(e) Visa even
exist? A Fiance(e) Visa requires a 6 month waiting period, so why bother, if I can
just do the same on a Tourist Visa.

Fiance(e) Visa Tourist Visa stay 90 days 90
days work permit maybe no can get maried yes
yes have to adjust status yes yes Waiting
period 180 days min none

Why wait? Why does the Fiance(e) Visa exist? I'd love to do it the "official" way,
but I am not prepared to wait 6 months to get married. Personal matters are urgent.
If I had the time, I'd take it, but I don't.

I don't know whether it was customs or INS, I know they were federal agents. Or
something. (It was clear I wasn't supposed to insult them... )

I am in Holland now and try to get money together to fly to the states AGAIN. It will
be my 3rd time.

It is very good to know that I can get married in the states. I could not open your
site, however. http://www.kamya.com/misc/license.html (Forbidden, no permission)

Why would it be "ill advised" to get married in the first 60 days?

"James Donovan" <[email protected]>
[usenetquote2]> > I am a Dutch guy and I'd like to get married to an American girl.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > After some searching 6 months ago I came to something called a[/usenetquote2]
"Fiance(e)
[usenetquote2]> > Visa". Sounded interesting, but it also said that there was a waiting[/usenetquote2]
period
[usenetquote2]> > of at least 6 months. So I decided to go there on a Tourist Visa.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > Customs in Philadelphia found me to be an interesting specimen and[/usenetquote2]
wanted to
[usenetquote2]> > make sure I was not going to work.[/usenetquote2]
    >
    >
    >
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > I then didn't find out a lot but had heard rumors during the 3 months I[/usenetquote2]
was
[usenetquote2]> > in the States. I might be able to get married. Then I had to leave the States but[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > I came back after about a week. Very costly.[/usenetquote2]
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > It is now 3 months later. In the meanwhile I found out that I can get married on[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > a Tourist Visa under the Visa Waiver Pilot Program in the[/usenetquote2]
state
[usenetquote2]> > of Nevada. Very costly.[/usenetquote2]
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > But here's the kicker: I heard rumors that I could just get married[/usenetquote2]
anywhere
[usenetquote2]> > by going to the courthouse and asking for permission from a judge.[/usenetquote2]
    >
    >
    >
    >
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > Now I spent 6 months being unemployed and in hardship, knowing I want to[/usenetquote2]
get
[usenetquote2]> > married, but found only opposition.[/usenetquote2]
    >
    >
    >
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > When I read on the official INS website that I need a Fiance(e) Visa and also[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > knew/heard rumors that application for a Visa under the Waiver[/usenetquote2]
program
[usenetquote2]> > would get me deported for 5 years, I thought I would HAVE to wait 6[/usenetquote2]
months,
[usenetquote2]> > and me and she weren't prepared to deal with the emotional aspect of[/usenetquote2]
this.
[usenetquote2]> > That cost me an incredible amount of money and hasn't solved much.[/usenetquote2]
    >
    >
    >
    >
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > My question is this: Is it true that I can get married whenever and[/usenetquote2]
wherever
[usenetquote2]> > I want when I am in the states on a Tourist Visa under the Visa Waiver[/usenetquote2]
Pilot
[usenetquote2]> > Program.[/usenetquote2]
    >
    >
    >
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > And once I am married, is it dangerous to apply for a Visa on the basis[/usenetquote2]
of
[usenetquote2]> > being married, yet under the Visa Waiver Pilot Program? Do I risk deportation?[/usenetquote2]
    >
    >
    >

Sylvia Ottemoeller

Firebird wrote:

    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >

Add this:

Risk of accusation of fraud: very little a lot more

    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >

Firebird, there is a thorough discussion of this whole topic available. Go to
http://www.mindspring.com/~docsteen/...o/visainfo.htm, accept the conditions, and
go to "tourist adjustment." Read especially "Intro," "30-60 Rule," "Entry Risks" and
"Tourist FAQ."

James Donovan

"Firebird" <[email protected]>
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >

The INS tries to encourage you to use the K-1 route, as this makes things easier for
them, as you have done your medical and some background checks etc. when you get your
K-1. It also clears up the question of intent when you enter at the port of entry,
and also makes your processing go supposedly smoother.

However, they say that you can adjust once you entered on any valid visa. There are a
few noted exceptions, which are on the website, like J-1 with the two year home
residency requirement etc. etc. Anyway let me not confuse you any more than you are.

    >
    >
    >
    >

Because of what I mention above, it clears up the "intent" question entirely. At the
port of entry the officer can deny you entry if you tell him/her that you plan to get
married on a tourist visa. There was a big problem of people getting tourist visas,
coming to the US and the minute they get off the plane, BOOM they marry and get a
green card. You will hear stories about "mail order brides from Russia" (and other
places too) and other scams which is the whole reason they changed up things.

    >
    >
    >
    >
    >

Well you're correct on the last three, I'll make some corrections.

You can initially stay up to 6 months max on a tourist visa, depending on what the
officer at the POE stamps on your I-94. You can even get that stay extended to a year
if you show good reason.

Secondly, you can get an EAD if you adjust from any visa, and this includes tourist
visas. The K-1, however, allows you to work BEFORE you get married (in most cases).

    >
    >
    >
    >

If you enter with intent to marry and disclose that fact to an INS inspector, you
will be placed on the next flight back and it will screw up any future applications.
Guaranteed.

    >

Well then take your chances. Many succeed, and some do not.

    >
    >
    >

They were most likely INS inspectors. Customs usually gives you a blank stare while
you drop your form in the box provided.

    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >

Your ISP probably blocked it.

    >
    >

There is a rule contained in an INS memo called the 30/60 day rule. That rule states
that if the marriage occurred before 30 days have passed since the alien entered,
there is a strong presumption that the intent when entering was to adjust status.
After 30 days, but before 60 days, the presumption is less. After 60 days, they
cannot tell you that your intent when entering was to adjust status. Your case can be
denied on the grounds that you obtained and/or entered on a nonimmigrant tourist visa
for the purpose of immigrating to the US. This is what is called "visa fraud".

James Donovan

Sylvia Ottemoeller <[email protected]>
    >
    >
[usenetquote2]> > Thank you very much for your help.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > I went to the USA twice for 3 months at a time. I was there on a Tourist Visa[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > twice.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > The trouble was that I had read about the Fiance(e) Visa. Nowhere on the INS site[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > it said that I could get married in the states WITHOUT this Visa.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > I wonder: If I can get married on a Tourist Visa, then why does a Fiance(e) Visa[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > even exist? A Fiance(e) Visa requires a 6 month waiting period, so why bother, if[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > I can just do the same on a Tourist Visa.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > Fiance(e) Visa Tourist Visa stay 90 days 90 days[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > work permit maybe no can get maried yes yes have[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > to adjust status yes yes Waiting period 180 days[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > min none[/usenetquote2]
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >

I think the whole purpose of the K-1 was to clear up the whole "intent" issue.

Firebird

You have been most helpful, with the site and taking time to answer my questions.

I know how things work now. The mood of the INS officer at the POE is the important
factor. Lying will be punished.

As I made clear: My intent IS to marry. That is: I love her, and want tto get
married. I am from Holland, and the standard of living here is pretty much the same.
Could be a bit worse, or a bit better, I don't know.

I am not saying the states is better or worse, but I have enough chances here.

If I tell the INS officer that I have no job in Holland, will he look at that as a
very bad thing?

The very truth is: My (ex-)boss likes me a lot, and thinks I am a good employee. My
job was specialized and he still hasn't found anyone to replace
me. I couldn't get my job back now, because it is slow in the beginning of the year.
And because I want to leave for the states again, it was useless to hire me
during that slow time only.

If I were to stay longer I would get a contract immediately, and he'd hire me today.

Will the INS officer take time to listen to this, and what will he think of this?
Will he be like "yeah yeah, whatever. Sure, man, whatever you say!" and then send me
back to Holland?

I have gone to the States twice before for 6 months and it was hard to get through
the INS then. The second time they went through all my stuff.

I had letters in there that said: "I'd like to go to work, but it's impossible" to my
fiancee, who has to carry the entire financial burden alone. They found 3 screws and
a screwdriver and said "AHA! You're working as a computer guy, aren't ya!" And I'm
not. I like computers and fix them.

But I had also brought my two harddisks. I needed something to screw them in my
fiancee's computer with.

After their heavy suspicion they then decided to let me go. But I was not wrong then.
I was right. I did right. I didn't lie. Even when they asked if I was to get married,
I answered truthfully saying "I'd like to get married, but we can't because I don't
have a visa. If I do it the wrong way I get deported for 5 years." The officer then
said "How do you know this?" as if he really did not want me to know this stuff. I
said "INS website" I said we were going to get a K-1, but not yet because it was
going to take too long, and we couldn't wait and stay away from eachother that long.

If things were calm and painless, I'd wait my time.

I have arguments for the INS that I could never use. I could say: "The reson these
rules exist is: poor people come in to take advantage of the USA an get married to
commit fraude, to stay. The K-1 Visa is a 'wait-to-be-sure system so people will know
what they are doing better. But since I have allready known her for a long time (a
year last december) and been with her for 6 months, it is unlikely, and definately
unprovable that I have bad intent. At least that is what the statistics say. The
truth is: I want her, not America. I could care less about America, I have my own
country, culture, family, friends. All that I had to give up allready, because she
has kids she cannot leave behind. I came to the USA because I love her, and
specifically because of this, love, these rules exist. That many people take
advantage of these rules because "love" is abstract and unprovable, is not my fault."

In the end: America stands for freedom, personal freedom, the freedom to do as
you choose, yet it is clear about tolerance for criminality. That is where
freedom stops.

That is the way it is supposed to be. It would be easy for the government to say: No.
No marriages. Too much hassle. Go away, we don't need this.

I am grateful that the States grants me these rights. Without it I'd be lost.

Will they understand?

Anyway, this is not easy. I have a lot of adversity to battle already. She has mental
problems and a furious ex-husband. 4 kids with mental health problems because of the
abuse of their father. A lot of pent up anger and frustration, medical problems out
the wahzoo (near death even), and a general social deprivation. People tend to walk
away from people with problems. On top of that comes this "culture shock" and
"homesickness", a little "jet lag" here and there and lot's of depression.

I don't want to anger anyone, harm anyowe, or be in anyone's way. I just need some
help. I just need some mercy.

Oh well...

Just one more question. I hope someone has the answer.

Can I fly to the USA awaiting my pending K-1?

It would be costly, but PERFECTLY legal, _if_ I can fly there legally...

Thanks for the help!

"James Donovan" <[email protected]>
[usenetquote2]> > Firebird wrote:[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > > Thank you very much for your help.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > > I went to the USA twice for 3 months at a time. I was there on a[/usenetquote2]
Tourist
[usenetquote2]> > > Visa twice.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > > The trouble was that I had read about the Fiance(e) Visa. Nowhere on[/usenetquote2]
the INS
[usenetquote2]> > > site it said that I could get married in the states WITHOUT this Visa.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > > I wonder: If I can get married on a Tourist Visa, then why does a[/usenetquote2]
Fiance(e)
[usenetquote2]> > > Visa even exist? A Fiance(e) Visa requires a 6 month waiting period,[/usenetquote2]
so why
[usenetquote2]> > > bother, if I can just do the same on a Tourist Visa.[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > > Fiance(e) Visa Tourist Visa stay 90 days 90[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > > days work permit maybe no can get maried yes[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > > yes have to adjust status yes yes Waiting[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > > period 180 days min none[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > Add this:[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> >[/usenetquote2]
[usenetquote2]> > Risk of accusation of fraud: very little a lot more[/usenetquote2]
    >
    >
issue.

Rete

Right off the bat I can tell you that you are in for a difficult time the next time you enter or try to enter the US unless you get an examiner who is very very laid back and doesn't care to do his job. Why? Because this is your third trip. The other two trips were for 6 month durations. You have no job or ties to your home country. You have a "woman" friend that you are staying with for those months. You are carrying tools. Probably will be carrying more luggage than before because you intend to stay. Also if you mouth off with what you said in your last post, they will turn you around so quickly, your head will be spinning.

You mentioned your girl friend's mental health problems and that she has four children. You do know that someone has to sponsor you for your adjustment of status (green card). Does she make enough money to meet the 125% poverty guidelines for a family of 6? If not, does she have 5 times that amount in assets, i.e. a home, stocks, etc. If not, is there someone else that will be willing to sponsor you?

YOu said she is in Pennsylvania. That is one plus. You can marry and file in person and in Philly the wait time for an employment document is about 3 weeks. In Pittsburgh it is issued the same day you apply in person. Philly use to be that way but is no longer doing it the same day but a few weeks later. There is a downsizing of US businesses at the moment. Do you have the skills to get a job? You mention being a skilled worker in Holland but is that a skill in demand here in the US?

Also the government is not saying No marriages. It cannot say that. But it can make you adhere to its laws concerning marrying a USC. And although the INS laws will allow you to marry under a VWP visit, it is not acceptable at the POE to enter for such a purpose.

You went on and on about the 6 months it might take to get the K-1. You would have been using the Vermont Service Center and the US Consulate in Amsterdam. You would have had the K-1 within 4 months tops. You could have applied for it while you were here in the US visiting and returned to Holland to complete your end of it while you were tying up your loose ends. Instead now you have placed yourself in a bit of a difficult situation by attempting to re-enter the US for a third time after being here for 12 months inside of one year and a few months. You, in my opinion, have "Warning, Visa Fraud Possibility" stamped across your forehead.

Read the sites that Ranjini gave you. Read it thoroughly and comprehensively. It will give you lots of details to what you are about to do.

Good Luck

Rita

James Donovan

"Firebird" <[email protected]>
    >
    >
    >
    >

Nope. Everything is factors in, your previous stays, the country you came from,
everything. And yes, lying will be punished. It's never good to lie to the INS.

    >
    >

Tell that to the INS inspector at the POE and they WILL turn you back.

    >

Then they'll tell you get a K-1 visa, because that is what it's for. Tourist visas
are not for getting married and adjusting status. That's why so many young women from
all over the world get denied for tourist visas. Every applicant for a tourist visa
is presumed to be an intending immigrant. It's up to you to show that you're not. Of
course if you get a tourist visa or enter on it and are in fact an intending
immigrant, you have shown that you have fraudulently obtained or abused the visa.
THAT is where the problem is.

    >
    >

That doesn't matter. They turn back Canadians at the canadian border if they tell the
inspector that they are entering to marry a US citizen.

    >
    >
    >
    >

Yes, probably.

    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >

Probably. It all depends on what they ask. Sometimes they ask nothing, sometimes they
grill you.

    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >

    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >

They won't give a shit about what you say. It's up to them to allow you or deny you.
As a matter of fact they'll probably deny you entry because you've been here two
times before and are now giving them lip on a third entry. Not good.

Even if they do not do you anything at the POE, your words could come back to haunt
you at your interview. Don't be a cowboy. Cowboys get deported and banned. Do it the
right way and you'll save yourself a whole lot of potential stress.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >

uhm, probably not... However, the wait isn't THAT long.

Tony & Roxy

getting married so you can get citizenship, that say`s a lot for what kind of
contribution you`ll make to this great country.

James Donovan

[email protected] (Tony & Roxy)
    >
    >

Huh? I was born here, and I even served 6 years in the US military. What ARE you
talking about?

ameriton

My fiance and I were considering going this route. We were even advised by an immigration attorney that it's easier to just get married on the visa waiver program then change status. However, I've recently heard some horror stories of people who have done this. True, a lot that are obviously in love get through, but many do not. Those who do not are deported and can be banned from even visiting the US for years.

At first we wanted to be together quickly, at any cost, but now that we think about it, it's worth waiting the 6 to 9 months now... god forbid he was deported. You could be perfect in every way, but it all comes down to an immigration officer and what kind of day he or she has had.

It doesn't seem fair, but when you think about all scum these laws keep out of the country it is. If everyone skipped the K-1 and married on the visa waiver, eventually the visa waiver would be obliterated. That's not fair to anyone.

FYI as well, in order to moniter people marrying on the vwp a lot of courthouses are only granting marriage licenses to people with approved K-1 Visas or social security numbers. I know my local courthouse here in southeastern PA is doing this, so when we considered the idea we had to consider flying to Vegas...and that's even more money.

Just think clearly, you love this person with all your heart so think about having a future with them. It hurts, but it will be worth it in the end if you do things legally. Good luck.

Bob

That posts a couple years old....

ameriton

hmm.. it's been a long day..