Dekka's Angel

Of course it's an amnesty- at the most ideal level for those who will benefit from it because now nobody has to pretend anymore that they want to be here because they want to be US citizens because they are so much in love with the USA and what it stands for, when they really are here for the money to support their families back home. The proposal as outlined has no hard and fast cap on the numbers of years that an illegal worker can actually stay, by choice, before returning home. It says only that "at least one" three year extension to the guest worker permit will be available; which makes clear to me that between that and opportunities to AOS, those here illegally will face absolutely no consequence while they are collecting the very benefit they came here to collect. At least in the case of Mexican illegal immigration, it allows folks by the millions to now without without fear or consequence do even better what they have been doing anyway -- take US jobs at US wages and send as much money back home as possible to support their families in Mexico -- the place the vast majority still consider home. (If they are honest about this, and the vast majority other than their political representatives are, we should be too). You can't get much better than this, if you ask me, from that perspective. And it's a win for Mexico too, given that the third largest component of its economy is the billions of dollars sent home by US based Mexican workers.

Of course, since now they will become legal "guest workers", they can will receive higher wages -- and certainly more social protection -- than they get under the existing system (which is exploitative beyond belief, so I am not defending it at all) -- so long as they are still careful to undercut what a US citizen worker would have to be paid for the same work. Because if they do not, their employers in all likelihood cannot demonstrate that no US workers "are qualified, willing and available". This assumes of course that we won't see bogus advertisement of jobs for guest workers similar to those that occasionally plague the labor certification process, especially the RIR process, for skilled labor positions where the employer wants to hire an immigrant worker instead of a US based employee.

What a bunch of bullshit. Yes I said bullshit. Especially for the potential impact on the 36.4 million of us whose largely blue and brown collar communities will see the most job-related impacts from the proposal in terms of future work opportunity at decent wages. But I guess I should just get sanguine about it. After all, I don't see a whole lot of the advocates for this population standing up and raising hell about the possibility. Indeed, the collective shrug of silence about this issue is deafening other than a couple of platitudes tossed around to try to make folks feel better.

But the silence is also quite educational. It seems that Malcolm was right, after all.

jeffreyhy

nav,

New Jersey does still have some farms. I know some of the farmers.

Regards, JEff

Paul Gani

"supernav" <member16283@british_expats.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > I can make up my own little "business", file for 50 workers. Pay them
    > nothing, but they get visas. Now they can get SSN's. Now they can get
    > DL's. Now they can cross borders.

Another thing to keep in mind - why do you think we have so many illegal
aliens? What do you think is their primary motivation? They are not here
to lounge in their Florida vacation homes. They come here to WORK.

Paulgani

elviswasmydad

We will all be dead from mad cow disease so it doesn't matter.

Paul Gani

"Dekka's Angel" <member8849@british_expats.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > guess I should just get sanguine about it. After all, I don't see a
    > whole lot of the advocates for this population standing up and raising
    > hell about the possibility. Indeed, the collective shrug of silence
    > about this issue is deafening other than a couple of platitudes tossed
    > around to try to make folks feel better.
    > But the silence is also quite educational. It seems that Malcolm was
    > right, after all.

Oh please. If I can say one thing about the African American community, it
is that it is NOT shy about bringing injustice, whether perceived or real,
into the public light. The plight of the illegals, both on a national
level, and the local level (at least, in my part of the country), gets far
less attention.

Paulgani

Andrew Defaria

Dekka's Angel wrote:

    > Now, my son types 95 WPM, is computer literate, knows how to use a
    > cash register and answer office telephones, and has English as his
    > first language. (He also is an excellent cook so perhaps I should have
    > sent
    > him to PaulGani's chinese restaurant looking for a gig.) The only
    > thing he did not have was prior paying work experience and somebody in
    > Washington advocating for him to preferential access to millions of jobs
    > so that he can have "a better life" (I guess they figure his mama is
    > supposed to ensure that indefinitely for him even though he'll be 18
    > in two and a half months and will have graduated from high school in 5
    > having never held a paying job, something that when I was growing up
    > was anathema). One of the many downsides of being a US citizen
    > African-American male, I guess, even though technically he's 1/2 white.

(In my best imitation of Eddy Murphy): You're just saying that because
I"m black!

Yeah right...

    > So yes, there are plenty of able and willing kids, at least in my neck
    > of the woods, who have had a couple of very bad summers in 2002 and
    > 2003 -- and it looks like 2004 and following will be no better. After all,
    > since they apparently don't have the right status (they aren't illegal
    > immigrants with a powerful lobby and a bunch of "owners of capital"
    > looking to squeeze even more cheap labor in the name of a global economy
    > just so they can get started on their next million in the bank) nobody
    > controlling US policy is interested in ensuring that they have the
    > opportunity to work. Probably because most of the sons and daughters
    > of those actually controlling US policy don't actually have to work to
    > be guaranteed a place at the economic table later (like, for example,
    > our commander in chief or others born to families who are well off).

At least blacks have advocators and quotas and the like. Just think of
the poor white US citizen kids! ;-)

(Why don't we simply advocate based on ability? Nah that'd be too logical!)

--
Does fuzzy logic tickle?

Andrew Defaria

jeffreyhy wrote:

    > nav,
    > New Jersey does still have some farms. I know some of the farmers.

I grew up in NJ and spent my first 24 years there. I always heard it was
the "Garden state" referring to small farms growing typical garden
vegetables but rarely saw any farms, until I was leaving and decided to
drive down a highway running the Southwestern backbone of the state.
There are (or were) tons of farms there.

--
Smile, it's the second best thing you can do with your lips.

Paul Gani

"Dekka's Angel" <member8849@british_expats.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > this, if you ask me, from that perspective. And it's a win for Mexico
    > too, given that the third largest component of its economy is the
    > billions of dollars sent home by US based Mexican workers.

Oh please. I challenge you to list a single country in the entire world
which has prospered due to foreign remittances from expat. workers. The
Mexicos and Philippines of the world remain dirt poor, due in no small part
to the exodus of their people.

It's so Economics 101. Take an island, put a million people on it, and have
them sit around and do nothing. They starve and die. Now, take those
people, and develop institutions to make them work. Now you have food,
roads, houses, art, etc... even if money doesn't exist.

The prosperity occurs where the work occurs. Imagine if all of the
productivity of the illegals in America was instead channeled into work in
their own countries. Their countries would be far wealthier than they are
now. It is America that benefits when people come here and work for us, for
this country.

Look at the oil rich Arab states. Yes, they get all this money from us, but
their lands would still be empty deserts if they didn't use the money to
hire foreign workers (mostly from India/Pakistan and other non-oil rich Arab
countries) to come to their countries and actually do the work of building
their homes and cities.

American companies moving factories overseas and putting people to work
overseas - that's bad. American companies putting people to work in
America, even if that means importing more people - that's good.

Paulgani

Andrew Defaria

Paul Gani wrote:

    > The prosperity occurs where the work occurs. Imagine if all of the
    > productivity of the illegals in America was instead channeled into
    > work in their own countries. Their countries would be far wealthier
    > than they are
    > now. It is America that benefits when people come here and work for
    > us, for this country.

Which, of course, begs the question: Why ain't they doing that
(channeling their productivity into their own country)? Then the answer
becomes crystal clear - it's because of opportunity. America is the land
of opportunity as is often said. Makes me wonder why other countries
cannot figure that out and offer opportunity too. They'd be much better
off in the long run. However, around the world, it's much more in vogue
to hate America and the opportunity and freedom it represents. So self
destructive...
--
I've always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been more specific.

Paul Gani

"Andrew DeFaria" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Which, of course, begs the question: Why ain't they doing that
    > (channeling their productivity into their own country)? Then the answer

You know, China once tried to round up their people, and told them "go to
work". They spent a lot of time working doing nothing. Then millions of
them starved to death.

You get people to work by forming institutions (i.e. government) and a
system that gets people to work in an organized, productive manner. Some
countries are very good at this. Most fail miserably.

We recently visited the new National Constitution Center in Philadelphia.
Apparently, America has the world's oldest continuously operating
constitutional government. I am quite impressed how a document so old still
continues to work so well.

Paulgani

Andrew Defaria

Paul Gani wrote:

    > "Andrew DeFaria" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >> Which, of course, begs the question: Why ain't they doing that
    >> (channeling their productivity into their own country)? Then the answer
    > You know, China once tried to round up their people, and told them "go
    > to work". They spent a lot of time working doing nothing. Then
    > millions of them starved to death.

Where did I say that some authoritarian entity needs to tell others what
to do? Answer: Nowhere. I asked why aren't they (i.e. the people not the
government) doing that in their own country? You're response seems
typical of a socialist/authoritarian type. Governments aren't supposed
to tell you what you should do with your life. The best way for
governments to help is to allow opportunity to thrive (IOW largely get
out of businesses way) by letting individual's freedom thrive.

    > You get people to work by forming institutions (i.e. government) and a
    > system that gets people to work in an organized, productive manner.
    > Some countries are very good at this. Most fail miserably.

China (meaning the Chinese government) should not be sticking its head
into its people's business rounding them up nor telling them what to do
rather it should just allow and/or set it up such that productive people
can reap the rewards of their own efforts. What you state above is often
why so many other countries fail at this.

    > We recently visited the new National Constitution Center in
    > Philadelphia. Apparently, America has the world's oldest continuously
    > operating constitutional government. I am quite impressed how a
    > document so old still continues to work so well.

Why or why then aren't others following our lead instead of bemoaning it!

--
I used to have a handle on life, then it broke.

Paul Gani

"Andrew DeFaria" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Where did I say that some authoritarian entity needs

You didn't. I was just giving an example of the wrong thing to do.

    > Why or why then aren't others following our lead instead of bemoaning it!

Because they have civilizations that go back thousands of years and are
indignant that the one with only 200-300 years of history is telling them
what to do.

Paulgani

Mrraveltay

elviswasmydad wrote:

    >
    > We will all be dead from mad cow disease so it doesn't matter.
    >

Not in California, we only have happy cows.
http://www.realcaliforniacheese.com/ (click on the picture, then select
"HAPPY COWS"

Andrew Defaria

Paul Gani wrote:

    > "Andrew DeFaria" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >> Why or why then aren't others following our lead instead of bemoaning it!
    > Because they have civilizations that go back thousands of years and
    > are indignant that the one with only 200-300 years of history is
    > telling them what to do.

Well then the only solution is to let their supposed superior intellect
screw themselves up!

--
"More hay, Trigger?" "No thanks, Roy, I'm stuffed!"

Texas Ranger

"Paul Gani" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > First, I see no point in discussing Chinese restaurants in particular, as
    > there are a large multitude of reasons why the owners would desire to hire
    > Chinese staff, including that the clientele of said restaurants have come to
    > expect to see Chinese faces when patronizing such an establishment. For the
    > same reason, Chinese owners of say, Italian restaurants will often choose to
    > hire Caucasians to staff the front "office".
    >
    > I have a friend with a retail business. When he started out, he frequently
    > hired Americans at minimum wage to staff his positions. He was always
    > complaining to me about how unreliable they were, theft problems, and very
    > frequent turnover.
    >
    > I wasn't particularly surprised. He required them to work odd hours, and
    > demanded they perform janitorial duties in addition to their retail
    > responsibilities. I've seen otherwise honest employees resort to theft and
    > similar acts because they felt they were being exploited by their employers.
    >
    > Obviously, even though his American employees took his jobs, they considered
    > the jobs to be stop-gap, i.e. they would be gone as soon as they found
    > ANYTHING better.
    >
    > I told him - "Easy solution - pay them more, and give them better working
    > conditions". He was very adamant that he would not make any money if he did
    > so, as his rent and other expenses were very high.
    >
    > Eventually, his business stablized after he hired foreigners. They were
    > paid the same amount as the Americans, but were willing to accept their jobs
    > for the long term, and didn't complain about the working conditions.
    >
    > For every highly profitable Microsoft, Cisco, and Oracle, there are tens of
    > thousands of American businesses who are operating barely above solvency,
    > and can't afford to pay the relatively high wages and benefits that American
    > workers have come to expect and demand. These are the companies who are
    > indeed willing and able to offer legal wages and working conditions, but
    > have a difficult time finding American workers willing to stay at the jobs,
    > even if some do initally accept offers of employment.
    >
    > Paulgani

thanks for your wonderful posts Paul