Paulgani

"Matthew Udall" <member3997@british_expats.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > If so, than maybe they will need to put "more teeth" into the
    > sanctions against employers who continue to hire undocumented aliens
    > under the table.

You know, my wife can't figure out why the U.S. government doesn't seem to
be interested in deporting illegals (or, by inference, punishing businesses
who hire them.) She can find one, or a dozen, illegal aliens, every time we
visit a Chinese restaurant.

My theory is that ICE agents love Chinese food too much.

Paulgani

Mrraveltay

paulgani wrote:

    > "Matthew Udall" <member3997@british_expats.com> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >
    >>If so, than maybe they will need to put "more teeth" into the
    >>sanctions against employers who continue to hire undocumented aliens
    >>under the table.
    >
    >
    > You know, my wife can't figure out why the U.S. government doesn't seem to
    > be interested in deporting illegals (or, by inference, punishing businesses
    > who hire them.) She can find one, or a dozen, illegal aliens, every time we
    > visit a Chinese restaurant.

How can she tell there are "illegals"?

Paul Gani

"mrraveltay" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > How can she tell there are "illegals"?

My wife is from Fujian, China, where a sizeable majority of the illegal
Chinese in the U.S. originate from. If you can speak their dialect, they
usually love to tell you their stories. Indeed, my wife and I enjoy to hear
them as much as they enjoy to tell them.

Paulgani

Andrew Defaria

Paul Gani wrote:

    > "mrraveltay" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >> How can she tell there are "illegals"?
    > My wife is from Fujian, China, where a sizeable majority of the
    > illegal Chinese in the U.S. originate from. If you can speak their
    > dialect, they usually love to tell you their stories. Indeed, my wife
    > and I enjoy to hear them as much as they enjoy to tell them.

Your wife says she doesn't know why the ICE doesn't deport them. Tell
her "Perhaps they would if you reported them".

--
A singles bar is a place people go to in hopes of meeting the sort of
person who wouldn't be caught dead in a singles bar.

Matthew Udall

Why would he do that? That might drive up the cost of that meal, and cut down on the number of prospective employees (cheap chinese labor) for his business ;-).

Andrew Defaria

Matthew Udall wrote:

    > Why would he do that? That might drive up the cost of that meal, and
    > cut down on the number of prospective employees (cheap chinese labor)
    > for his business ;-).

Good point! ;-)

--
My wife keeps complaining I never listen to her ...or something like that.

Folinskyinla

Hi:

I'm not commenting on the merits of the proposal because I learned a long time ago that they either don't go anywhere or whatever is passed looks completely different.

However, in answering your question, things like that happened in the 1986 Legalization. That section required that an eligible alien had to have been present in "unlawful status" since 1-1-1982. Furthermore, if the person had entered in NON-immigrant status and had violated that status, they had to show that the violation was "known to the government." In Matter of S--, 19 I&N Dec 851, the Commisioner confronted the "classic" Filipino fraud of immigrating as the UNmarried daughter while really married. She was ordered deported in the beginning of 1986. With the passage of IRCA her deportation was stayed and she applied for legalization -- claiming that she was in "unlawful status" and the "known to the government" standard didn't apply to her. She won -- IMHO as a result of the law of unintended consequences.

Matthew Udall

Hi Paul,
One of the arguments for the worker program (right or wrong) is that there is a shortage of U.S. workers ready, willing and able to perform the job.

In your Chinese restaurant example, isn’t it possible that instead of there being no U.S. workers ready, willing and able to perform the job, there might be times when the employer simply does not want a U.S. worker and U.S. workers are not given the opportunity to get those jobs?

Granted, an employer like you might be able to exploit his or her follow countrymen with low wages (those employees here illegally), but in addition to that incentive, don’t some employers sometime discriminate against U.S. workers just so they can hire a relative, or they want to help a countryman start a life in the U.S., they speak the same language, or due to other similarities or other things in common with the illegal worker?

If so, justifying a new worker program on the fact that there are no U.S. workers ready, willing or able to accept the employment is a little disingenuous, don’t you think?

I’m sure the larger the business, the less likely this is going to occur (discrimination against U.S. workers). Your Chinese restaurant example is a small operation, so lets instead look at a bigger farming operation where they hire hundreds of seasonal workers.

When I was in high-school (during summer breaks) I used to work at one of these seasonal farming jobs. My brothers and sisters all worked there before I, and while it entailed long hours and not the greatest of pay, it was honest work and darn good pay for a young man of my age back then (I was thrilled every time I received my pay check, and at that age, jobs are a little harder to come by).

So I spent a couple of summers working in a tomato packing shed in Livingston, Ca. right along many who I assume were here illegally in the U.S. I certainly wasn’t the only “white� high-school kid working there (there were many of us).

Yes, the employer needed many workers, but there were many of us who are U.S. citizens ready, willing and able to work. Would today be any different? Aren’t there scores of young men and women in this country sitting idle, just wishing for job or something to do over the summer (which is when much of this work will be taking place)?

Mrraveltay

Matthew Udall wrote:
    >
    > So I spent a couple of summers working in a tomato packing shed in
    > Livingston, Ca. right along many who I assume were here illegally in the
    > U.S. I certainly wasn’t the only “whiteâ€? high-school kid working there
    > (there were many of us).

Kind of similar to my experience detassling corn in Illinois as a
teenager, except I seem to recall the wage as being higher than I earned
at Dog & Suds (hotdogs and rootbeer, not a dog wash). I am wondering
if that was due to the differences between the amount of illegal labor
available at the time in Central Illinois versus the the illegal labor
market in California. In other words, there are legal people that would
do the job, but might require higher wages/benefits.

Paul Gani

First, I see no point in discussing Chinese restaurants in particular, as
there are a large multitude of reasons why the owners would desire to hire
Chinese staff, including that the clientele of said restaurants have come to
expect to see Chinese faces when patronizing such an establishment. For the
same reason, Chinese owners of say, Italian restaurants will often choose to
hire Caucasians to staff the front "office".

I have a friend with a retail business. When he started out, he frequently
hired Americans at minimum wage to staff his positions. He was always
complaining to me about how unreliable they were, theft problems, and very
frequent turnover.

I wasn't particularly surprised. He required them to work odd hours, and
demanded they perform janitorial duties in addition to their retail
responsibilities. I've seen otherwise honest employees resort to theft and
similar acts because they felt they were being exploited by their employers.

Obviously, even though his American employees took his jobs, they considered
the jobs to be stop-gap, i.e. they would be gone as soon as they found
ANYTHING better.

I told him - "Easy solution - pay them more, and give them better working
conditions". He was very adamant that he would not make any money if he did
so, as his rent and other expenses were very high.

Eventually, his business stablized after he hired foreigners. They were
paid the same amount as the Americans, but were willing to accept their jobs
for the long term, and didn't complain about the working conditions.

For every highly profitable Microsoft, Cisco, and Oracle, there are tens of
thousands of American businesses who are operating barely above solvency,
and can't afford to pay the relatively high wages and benefits that American
workers have come to expect and demand. These are the companies who are
indeed willing and able to offer legal wages and working conditions, but
have a difficult time finding American workers willing to stay at the jobs,
even if some do initally accept offers of employment.

Paulgani

Matthew Udall

I understand the reasons you mention (traditional to see Chinese faces in the restaurant) however I’m sure there are many U.S. citizens or LPR’s with the proper appearance to fill those jobs. And I assume the jobs you say you see filled by the illegal aliens are not the top management jobs, but rather more along the lines of bus boy, dish washer or waiter. These would be prime jobs for a young man or woman (or high-school kid) legally here in the U.S., needing to work (or an older worker who happens to want to do this type of work).

And if the job being filled is say, a specialty chef job, we already have a process in place in which to bring in that type of worker through legal channels.

But if it’s simply a matter of a restaurant owner wanting to exploit his or her countryman by only selecting those who are illegal so he can get away with paying them next to nothing (So he or she can put more money in their pocket, or even worse, if they are associated with the Snake Heads themselves and getting a piece of “that� action), than that is despicable behavior which I assume the employer will continue, even with a new worker program. I wonder if we will see the day when U.S. citizens and LPR (or perhaps simply anti-immigration folks) will picket restaurants like this (who employ illegal aliens) with signs saying, “eating here is supporting the human slave trade and/or economic terrorists�.

Such a business owner would be disingenuous if he or she were to now say they had to do this because there were no U.S. citizens ready, willing or able to do the job (and I find it a little disturbing that due to the color of my skin or other non-Chinese characteristics I possess, that I would be passed over for one of these jobs…. Sounds like old fashioned racial discrimination to me).

Well, people (USC, LPR’S and aliens) can be pretty rotten sometimes and will engage in all sorts of bad behavior on the flimsiest of justifications. For example, I’m sure we would hear the same thing from USC’S who steal time from their employers by playing on the net while being paid to work, and will justify this for all sorts of ridiculous reasons (that were never contemplated, negotiated or agreed upon with their employer [and no, I’m not pointing my finger at anybody in particular or have anybody in mind by using this “common, everyday� example]).

If he’s not offering a career type of job, then it is understandable that he has employee turnover. All business has employee turnover, and it sounds like he’s offering a crummy working environment.

Here we have a business owner who is breaking the law, and justifying it so he can put more money into his pocket. Disgusting. And if the working conditions are so bad that U.S. workers don’t want to work for him than he should fix that situation, not use that fact to instead justify why he should exploit an illegal alien.

And all of this just lends credence to what I speculated about, that its not only the occasional inability to find U.S. workers ready, willing and able to do the work, but also sometimes the greed of the employer or discrimination by an employer who limits his choices of employees to illegal aliens.

Right, he’s got them right where he wants them. They won’t complain or move on and will be happy for the scraps he throws them. He’ll keep exploiting them for his own personal gain rather than improving working conditions and hiring legal workers.

And if he can’t afford to hire legal workers, than his business “should� fail (unless of course, you think it’s a good thing for him to exploit aliens).

If their business plan requires the exploitation of illegal aliens, than those business should fail and those former employers should go bus tables for a while and save their pennies for the next time they want to try staring a business.

Now the next questions is, why don’t “you� do something about this exploitation Paul, when you see it happening at this restaurant?

Paul Gani

"Matthew Udall" <member3997@british_expats.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > If their business plan requires the exploitation of illegal aliens, than
    > those business should fail and those former employers should go bus
    > tables for a while and save their pennies for the next time they want to
    > try staring a business.

As I've said before, the world has changed with globalization. The
struggling American business which can't afford to pay higher salaries is
often struggling because it must compete in the global marketplace, where
the competition doesn't have to pay even 10% of the salaries it is offering.
Even if the competition is local, say, the Walmart down the road, it must
compete against Walmart's highly efficient utilization of the global
marketplace.

Now, you may believe the proper solution is closing down. Would you presume
to tell the millions of Americans who have lost their jobs in steel,
manufacturing, and textiles that closing is indeed the morally correct
solution? Tell me, how many of those people who lost their jobs might have
preferred to accept lower compensation to keep their jobs?

I would rather have the companies HERE in the U.S., still in business,
rather than moving operations overseas, or just declaring bankruptcy and
closing up shop. If keeping the company IN business IN the U.S. requires
cheaper imported foreign labor, then that's how it should be.

Let's take chickens. Maryland's eastern shore has several huge chicken
processing plants each with hundreds or even thousands of workers. They do
utilize legal workers, but virtually all of them are of recent immigrants of
Latino origin earning near the minimum wage, probably TPS or some other
precarious status. They could hire Americans, but I'll bet when they do,
the Americans don't last long under the grueling but legal working
conditions. I'll bet the Latino workers provide dependable, long term
employment for the plants.

Now, these plants are competitive on the global marketplace. Indeed, they
export a lot of chickens products to RUSSIA!

What if the Latino workers disappeared? Do you think $5.15/hour in 40
degree slaughterhouses would interest Americans? Or, do you think that
Americans with their unions would be demanding $20/hour within months? At
$20/hour, these plants would DISAPPEAR. They could NOT compete against
foreign imported chicken, and certainly not export chicken to developing
nations such as Russia. Think of the enormous impact these factories
provide to the Eastern Shore economies, i.e. the property taxes, the income
taxes, the jobs to the American chicken farmers, as well as the American
management of the plant and all of its suppliers!

I want MORE of these globally competitive operations here in the U.S., not
less. Heck, I may need a job one day, and I could manage their internal
networks or internet operations quite well.

Even Alan Greenspan has said (with regards to H1B tech workers) something to
the effect that it is better to have the world's talent IN the U.S., working
FOR U.S. companies, than OUTSIDE the U.S. working for our competition!

    > Now the next questions is, why don't "you" do something about this
    > exploitation Paul, when you see it happening at this restaurant?

Something I have learned in business is that regardless of what you are
capable or clever enough to negotiate in a contract, if the agreement does
not mutually benefit both parties fairly, the deal will *always* fall apart.
You may accuse business owners who hire illegals to be exploiting the
workers. The workers are indeed also exploiting the employer's willingness
to hire illegals and pay in cash.

I would not presume to be so arrogant as to play "God" and decide what is
good for the owner and workers of the restaurants I patronize!

Paulgani

supernav

I can soo scam this system.

I can make up my own little "business", file for 50 workers. Pay them nothing, but they get visas. Now they can get SSN's. Now they can get DL's. Now they can cross borders.

As an American, i doubt i'll get any fines. I'll just say business never took off.

Their visa's will never get revoked. They were illegal already. But the manpower to investigate all who work and don't work would be enormous. They can't even handle simple applications now.

It'll be an adminstrative nightmare dealing with all the various forms of fraud that could come out of this. With now every illegal having a SSN and a DL to enter/exit the country with ease. Even claiming to be a USC to get in.

Bush made this system so illegals can easily scam it,a nd get gc's. Yet Bush can word it so it doesn't sound like an amesty, which it really is.

Kinda like the last amnesty where there were "farms" in downtown New Jersey.

-= nav =-

Dekka's Angel

This past couple of summers in the Bay Area, a very large number of high school juniors and seniors went unemployed, because the lower paying seasonal low-, semi- and occasionally entry-level white collar jobs usually available to them (such as at places like Costco, Home Depot and the local hardware store; movie theatre hospitality, cashiering at the local pizzeria or grocery store or gas station, lifeguarding at the local swimming pool, temporary work in offices while administrative people go on vacation) were being restricted to adult applicants. According to the managers at a couple of places I inquired trying to help my son out a bit because he was getting discouraged -- "Why should we take a chance on hiring kids when adults are falling all over themselves to get these jobs?"

Now, my son types 95 WPM, is computer literate, knows how to use a cash register and answer office telephones, and has English as his first language. (He also is an excellent cook so perhaps I should have sent him to PaulGani's chinese restaurant looking for a gig.) The only thing he did not have was prior paying work experience and somebody in Washington advocating for him to preferential access to millions of jobs so that he can have "a better life" (I guess they figure his mama is supposed to ensure that indefinitely for him even though he'll be 18 in two and a half months and will have graduated from high school in 5 having never held a paying job, something that when I was growing up was anathema). One of the many downsides of being a US citizen African-American male, I guess, even though technically he's 1/2 white.

So yes, there are plenty of able and willing kids, at least in my neck of the woods, who have had a couple of very bad summers in 2002 and 2003 -- and it looks like 2004 and following will be no better. After all, since they apparently don't have the right status (they aren't illegal immigrants with a powerful lobby and a bunch of "owners of capital" looking to squeeze even more cheap labor in the name of a global economy just so they can get started on their next million in the bank) nobody controlling US policy is interested in ensuring that they have the opportunity to work. Probably because most of the sons and daughters of those actually controlling US policy don't actually have to work to be guaranteed a place at the economic table later (like, for example, our commander in chief or others born to families who are well off).

Paul Gani

"supernav" <member16283@british_expats.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > I can soo scam this system.
    > I can make up my own little "business", file for 50 workers. Pay them
    > nothing, but they get visas. Now they can get SSN's. Now they can get
    > DL's. Now they can cross borders.

Why don't you read my proposal in the "What are your ideas for the new
workers plan" thread? I have addressed exactly this circumstance.

Paulgani