I-751 waiver - marriage in good faith - premarital agreement
Jun 18th 2009, 6:57 pm
#1
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I-751 waiver - marriage in good faith - premarital agreement
I obtained my conditional green card by marriage. We divorced before the 2 years was up. I am about to submit the I-751 application on the basis of marriage in good faith. Should our premarital agreement be submitted as part of the supporting documentation?
Here is the background. A prenup kept our assets totally separate with the exception of a house. According to the prenup, I acquired a 50% interest in the million dollar home she purchased just before our marriage in return for an obligation to pay 50% of the mortgage, property taxes, improvement costs, utility bills, joint expenses, etc. I was not on the title of the house nor on the mortgage nor on any of the utility bills. My ownership interest in the house (if that's the right term) and my obligation to cover 50% of the costs of acquiring, improving, and maintaining the home were solely by virtue of the prenup.
I wanted to submit the prenup as part of the supporting documentation to show that we had entered 50:50 into a million dollar commitment . Without the prenup, it looks as if we had no joint assets (and not even joint utility bills as all the utilities were in her name). I thought that the 38-page prenup showing we had entered into this huge financial commitment together would be very advantageous to my application.
But my immigration attorney disagrees. She says that the prenup (a) makes it look as if the marriage was more like a financial arrangement than love and (b) we were planning for the event that the marriage would fail. She does not want us to submit it.
I am very nervous that if we don't submit it, my case will be weak because it will appear that there were no joint assets.
If we do submit it, we will show we had a million dollar joint asset. But as my attorney says, we might give the impression the marriage was all about a financial arrangement rather than love.
What is the best strategy?
Here is the background. A prenup kept our assets totally separate with the exception of a house. According to the prenup, I acquired a 50% interest in the million dollar home she purchased just before our marriage in return for an obligation to pay 50% of the mortgage, property taxes, improvement costs, utility bills, joint expenses, etc. I was not on the title of the house nor on the mortgage nor on any of the utility bills. My ownership interest in the house (if that's the right term) and my obligation to cover 50% of the costs of acquiring, improving, and maintaining the home were solely by virtue of the prenup.
I wanted to submit the prenup as part of the supporting documentation to show that we had entered 50:50 into a million dollar commitment . Without the prenup, it looks as if we had no joint assets (and not even joint utility bills as all the utilities were in her name). I thought that the 38-page prenup showing we had entered into this huge financial commitment together would be very advantageous to my application.
But my immigration attorney disagrees. She says that the prenup (a) makes it look as if the marriage was more like a financial arrangement than love and (b) we were planning for the event that the marriage would fail. She does not want us to submit it.
I am very nervous that if we don't submit it, my case will be weak because it will appear that there were no joint assets.
If we do submit it, we will show we had a million dollar joint asset. But as my attorney says, we might give the impression the marriage was all about a financial arrangement rather than love.
What is the best strategy?
Jun 18th 2009, 7:35 pm
#2
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Re: I-751 waiver - marriage in good faith - premarital agreement
You can do anything you want. However, I agree with your attorney - it appears to me that the prenup has little to show in your favor. You should trust your attorney or get a new one if you don't.
I obtained my conditional green card by marriage. We divorced before the 2 years was up. I am about to submit the I-751 application on the basis of marriage in good faith. Should our premarital agreement be submitted as part of the supporting documentation?
Here is the background. A prenup kept our assets totally separate with the exception of a house. According to the prenup, I acquired a 50% interest in the million dollar home she purchased just before our marriage in return for an obligation to pay 50% of the mortgage, property taxes, improvement costs, utility bills, joint expenses, etc. I was not on the title of the house nor on the mortgage nor on any of the utility bills. My ownership interest in the house (if that's the right term) and my obligation to cover 50% of the costs of acquiring, improving, and maintaining the home were solely by virtue of the prenup.
I wanted to submit the prenup as part of the supporting documentation to show that we had entered 50:50 into a million dollar commitment . Without the prenup, it looks as if we had no joint assets (and not even joint utility bills as all the utilities were in her name). I thought that the 38-page prenup showing we had entered into this huge financial commitment together would be very advantageous to my application.
But my immigration attorney disagrees. She says that the prenup (a) makes it look as if the marriage was more like a financial arrangement than love and (b) we were planning for the event that the marriage would fail. She does not want us to submit it.
I am very nervous that if we don't submit it, my case will be weak because it will appear that there were no joint assets.
If we do submit it, we will show we had a million dollar joint asset. But as my attorney says, we might give the impression the marriage was all about a financial arrangement rather than love.
What is the best strategy?
Here is the background. A prenup kept our assets totally separate with the exception of a house. According to the prenup, I acquired a 50% interest in the million dollar home she purchased just before our marriage in return for an obligation to pay 50% of the mortgage, property taxes, improvement costs, utility bills, joint expenses, etc. I was not on the title of the house nor on the mortgage nor on any of the utility bills. My ownership interest in the house (if that's the right term) and my obligation to cover 50% of the costs of acquiring, improving, and maintaining the home were solely by virtue of the prenup.
I wanted to submit the prenup as part of the supporting documentation to show that we had entered 50:50 into a million dollar commitment . Without the prenup, it looks as if we had no joint assets (and not even joint utility bills as all the utilities were in her name). I thought that the 38-page prenup showing we had entered into this huge financial commitment together would be very advantageous to my application.
But my immigration attorney disagrees. She says that the prenup (a) makes it look as if the marriage was more like a financial arrangement than love and (b) we were planning for the event that the marriage would fail. She does not want us to submit it.
I am very nervous that if we don't submit it, my case will be weak because it will appear that there were no joint assets.
If we do submit it, we will show we had a million dollar joint asset. But as my attorney says, we might give the impression the marriage was all about a financial arrangement rather than love.
What is the best strategy?
Jun 19th 2009, 12:45 am
#3
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Re: I-751 waiver - marriage in good faith - premarital agreement
The "best" strategy, always, is the one that works for you and not against you. There is nothing wrong with having a prenup agreement... but in this case, I think the attorney is right. Since, by your own words, you had no obligation to pay the mortgage/utilities other than via the prenup, you don't really demonstrate that this was anything other than a financial relationship.
Ian
Ian
Jun 19th 2009, 2:15 am
#4
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Re: I-751 waiver - marriage in good faith - premarital agreement
Who is the "we" in your post? Your ex-wife or your attorney? I agree with your attorney as that was my first thought. Wow he married well and made sure his nest would be feathered in the future.
Go with whatever evidence you have of a commingled life together with your former spouse, i.e. pass health benefits jointly held, pictures and itineraries of vacations and/or business trips togehter, in your case letters from family and friends attesting to your marriage.
Hey good luck. Did you get your 50% of the interest in the million dollar home yet?
Go with whatever evidence you have of a commingled life together with your former spouse, i.e. pass health benefits jointly held, pictures and itineraries of vacations and/or business trips togehter, in your case letters from family and friends attesting to your marriage.
Hey good luck. Did you get your 50% of the interest in the million dollar home yet?
Jun 19th 2009, 4:07 am
#5
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Re: I-751 waiver - marriage in good faith - premarital agreement
Hi:
I am a lawyer, but I am not YOUR lawyer. I have not seen the paperwork. I am not familiar with Texas laws on marital property [which can vary even between "community property" states].
That said, my off-the-top of my head reaction is that I would put it in. However, this is a judgment call -- and I will not say what is "best."
I am a lawyer, but I am not YOUR lawyer. I have not seen the paperwork. I am not familiar with Texas laws on marital property [which can vary even between "community property" states].
That said, my off-the-top of my head reaction is that I would put it in. However, this is a judgment call -- and I will not say what is "best."
Jun 19th 2009, 7:05 am
#6
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Re: I-751 waiver - marriage in good faith - premarital agreement
The "best" strategy, always, is the one that works for you and not against you. There is nothing wrong with having a prenup agreement... but in this case, I think the attorney is right. Since, by your own words, you had no obligation to pay the mortgage/utilities other than via the prenup, you don't really demonstrate that this was anything other than a financial relationship.
An obligation to pay the mortgage/utilities via the prenup is still evidence of financial co-mingling, is it not? Why do you think it matters that the obligation arose as a result of the prenup? Originally, I wanted to be on the title of the house but my own attorney said a prenup that gave me a 50% interest in return for a 50% financial obligation was just as good. I now realize that is false -- I should have been on the title then I could have simply said in my I-751 petition that "We bought a house together" rather than going into convoluted explanations of how the prenup effectively meant we bought a house together.
Regarding the prenup you say: (a) nothing wrong with having one and (b) if you have one it suggests nothing more than a financial relationship. I don't mean to put words in your mouth but rather to say how I understood your remarks. Why would a prenup suggest it is "nothing more" than a financial relationship?
Jun 19th 2009, 7:21 am
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Re: I-751 waiver - marriage in good faith - premarital agreement
Either, depending on context. When I said we entered into a million dollar commitment over a house, I meant my ex-wife and I. When I asked if we should submit the prenup as part of the application, I meant my attorney and I.
How do you read feathering of a nest into what I said? The prenup made me responsible for half the mortgage payments and every other expense associated with the house.
The prenup required us both to get an appraisal of the house and average the results. Then subtract the acquisition costs to determine the appreciation. Then divide the appreciation between the two of us. My then wife found an appraiser who came up with such a low valuation that she owed me exactly nothing. I helped her pay for that house for the year we were living in it together and at the same time I was paying all the costs on my old house that I had not yet managed to sell. I gave up my interest in the house at divorce for zero dollars (actually $10 because according to the lawyers you can't part with something for zero). Overall, the marriage was a financial drain on me and I'm surprised you appear to see it as mercenary on my part.
The prenup required us both to get an appraisal of the house and average the results. Then subtract the acquisition costs to determine the appreciation. Then divide the appreciation between the two of us. My then wife found an appraiser who came up with such a low valuation that she owed me exactly nothing. I helped her pay for that house for the year we were living in it together and at the same time I was paying all the costs on my old house that I had not yet managed to sell. I gave up my interest in the house at divorce for zero dollars (actually $10 because according to the lawyers you can't part with something for zero). Overall, the marriage was a financial drain on me and I'm surprised you appear to see it as mercenary on my part.
Jun 19th 2009, 7:27 am
#8
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Re: I-751 waiver - marriage in good faith - premarital agreement
What does the prenup say about what you give to her in case of a divorce? If you came into the marriage with nothing, then leaving with 50% of the increased value of a property is damn good.
And yes, that is not comingling.
I now realize that is false -- I should have been on the title then I could have simply said in my I-751 petition that "We bought a house together" rather than going into convoluted explanations of how the prenup effectively meant we bought a house together.
Regarding the prenup you say: (a) nothing wrong with having one and (b) if you have one it suggests nothing more than a financial relationship. I don't mean to put words in your mouth but rather to say how I understood your remarks. Why would a prenup suggest it is "nothing more" than a financial relationship?
Since your prenup went as far as to outline who would pay for utilities, in the eyes of some people, it would seen as a marriage where if things are not laid out then advantage would be taken of the other person. For instance I would view the prenup as you outlined as her saying to you "You can only have a 50% interest in the increased value of the house if you pay for the heat, gas, lights, maintenance, etc. If you don't do that, then you are not entitled to share in the increased evaluation of the house.
That is the rub.
But as I noted, your wife is very smart and has a damn good attorney.
Jun 19th 2009, 7:59 am
#9
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Re: I-751 waiver - marriage in good faith - premarital agreement
That's a thought provoking point. Some of the prenup is about having no community property - no comingling. But another part is about sharing the costs of purchasing the house, which is comingling.
A prenup doesn't say that it only shows that the persons involved in the marriage have decided NOT to comingle their assets obtained prior to marriage with their spouse.
Since your prenup went as far as to outline who would pay for utilities, in the eyes of some people, it would seen as a marriage where if things are not laid out then advantage would be taken of the other person. ....
Since your prenup went as far as to outline who would pay for utilities, in the eyes of some people, it would seen as a marriage where if things are not laid out then advantage would be taken of the other person. ....
My ex-wife is in fact a lawyer. She did not draft the prenup herself but had another lawyer do it. She did pay for the drafting of the prenup -- at the time, she made out she was being altruistic but I now realize it was to keep control of the wording of the prenup.
Jun 19th 2009, 8:05 am
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Re: I-751 waiver - marriage in good faith - premarital agreement
Hi:
I am a lawyer, but I am not YOUR lawyer. I have not seen the paperwork. I am not familiar with Texas laws on marital property [which can vary even between "community property" states].
That said, my off-the-top of my head reaction is that I would put it in. However, this is a judgment call -- and I will not say what is "best."
I am a lawyer, but I am not YOUR lawyer. I have not seen the paperwork. I am not familiar with Texas laws on marital property [which can vary even between "community property" states].
That said, my off-the-top of my head reaction is that I would put it in. However, this is a judgment call -- and I will not say what is "best."
I'm inclined to think it best to submit the prenup because it's the only evidence of financial comingling in a big way (i.e. our sharing of expenses over the house). But at least one of the other posters here is seeing it as evidence of keeping finances separate, therefore not comingling. The immigration officers reviewing my application might possibly see it in the latter light too, I suppose, especially if they don't read the prenup carefully.
Jun 19th 2009, 8:27 am
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Re: I-751 waiver - marriage in good faith - premarital agreement
Thank you, I appreciate your comments. My ex-wfe is a Texas lawyer. Her assets far exceeded mine and she drafted the prenup to ensure that there was no community property whatsoever with the exception of the house where there were detailed rules on how to share expenses and how to deal with it in the event of divorce.
I'm inclined to think it best to submit the prenup because it's the only evidence of financial comingling in a big way (i.e. our sharing of expenses over the house). But at least one of the other posters here is seeing it as evidence of keeping finances separate, therefore not comingling. The immigration officers reviewing my application might possibly see it in the latter light too, I suppose, especially if they don't read the prenup carefully.
I'm inclined to think it best to submit the prenup because it's the only evidence of financial comingling in a big way (i.e. our sharing of expenses over the house). But at least one of the other posters here is seeing it as evidence of keeping finances separate, therefore not comingling. The immigration officers reviewing my application might possibly see it in the latter light too, I suppose, especially if they don't read the prenup carefully.
I've seen the prenup argument used both ways against an applicant. This thread shows that there are differences in opinion. Getting another opinion (sanctioned by your lawyer) seems like a good idea with no downside.
Jun 19th 2009, 8:40 am
#12
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Re: I-751 waiver - marriage in good faith - premarital agreement
Regarding the prenup you say: (a) nothing wrong with having one...
... and (b) if you have one it suggests nothing more than a financial relationship.
Ian
Jun 19th 2009, 10:03 am
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Re: I-751 waiver - marriage in good faith - premarital agreement
I wanted to use the prenup to prove we had a house together. However, the divorce decree makes reference to the Premarital Agreement and Property Agreement, states that these documents are incorporated into the decree by reference, and states my interest in the house is divested out of me and into her name. In addition, my ex-wife gave me an affidavit of "marriage in good faith" which contains the sentence "We selected a house together and the house was purchased on [date]". Affidavits from friends also speak about visiting us in our home. So maybe the allusions to shared assets will suffice. Of course, it's possible the authorities will ask for the Premarital Agreement and Property Agreement agreement anyway since these are referenced in the decree.
Jun 19th 2009, 10:26 am
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Re: I-751 waiver - marriage in good faith - premarital agreement
My attorney has checked with her senior partner and he concurred that the prenup should not be submitted. Having seen the responses on this thread, I'm now fairly satisfied that the prenup could be misinterpreted by the authorities in a variety of ways, so I think I am going to accept my attorney's advice and not submit it.
I wanted to use the prenup to prove we had a house together. However, the divorce decree makes reference to the Premarital Agreement and Property Agreement, states that these documents are incorporated into the decree by reference, and states my interest in the house is divested out of me and into her name. In addition, my ex-wife gave me an affidavit of "marriage in good faith" which contains the sentence "We selected a house together and the house was purchased on [date]". Affidavits from friends also speak about visiting us in our home. So maybe the allusions to shared assets will suffice. Of course, it's possible the authorities will ask for the Premarital Agreement and Property Agreement agreement anyway since these are referenced in the decree.
I wanted to use the prenup to prove we had a house together. However, the divorce decree makes reference to the Premarital Agreement and Property Agreement, states that these documents are incorporated into the decree by reference, and states my interest in the house is divested out of me and into her name. In addition, my ex-wife gave me an affidavit of "marriage in good faith" which contains the sentence "We selected a house together and the house was purchased on [date]". Affidavits from friends also speak about visiting us in our home. So maybe the allusions to shared assets will suffice. Of course, it's possible the authorities will ask for the Premarital Agreement and Property Agreement agreement anyway since these are referenced in the decree.
Out of idle curiosity -- who is your lawyer? You can PM me on it if you wish.
Jun 19th 2009, 10:48 am
#15
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Re: I-751 waiver - marriage in good faith - premarital agreement
Your immigration law firm is excellent. Again, this may be a judgment call -- and I've heard of some pretty weird things coming out of Texas. One of my best professional friends practices in Dallas and what she deals with often causes a "WTF" response from yours truly.
I think it would be an interesting discussion between lawyers on this one and there just might be honest disagreement. As mentioned above, there is often no "best" way.
