Windza

Hi all....I am an Australian citizen currently staying in the U.S under the Visa Waiver program and my 90 days are coming up fast. I am here visiting my girlfriend who is a U.S citizen and was studying abroad in Oz where I met her. I am now looking to travel to Canada just before my VWP expires with the hopes of reapplying for the VWP after a few days in Canada. My thinking is that my case seems quite typical but I have had an unbelievable amount of trouble trying to get accurate information on what my options are. This was the only forum that contained anything related to this situation and I'm in desperate hope that someone can provide something of value as my flight is next week and I need to know if I should change it or not. ANY information or recommendations will be sincerely appreciated,
Kim Windsor
(I also posted this in the Canadian immigration forum as well in the hopes of getting some replies...I hope no-one minds)

flower6

yes you can fly into canada stay for a weekend and when u come back into the usa they will stamp you with another 3mos. I know a friend whos done it twice now and I'am in england with my husband who is UKC and I'am USC and I'am here on I-94 and I went to france for a weekend and came back to england and got another 6mos. Just make sure you dont enter back into the usa without a return ticket because then they may think u r up to something dodgy. Its that return ticket that saves the day because they know you are going to leave at some point. Good luck!!

Windza

Flower6,
Thanks for the prompt and positive reply (very relieving :-)...), i just have one question though, you mentioned flying into Canada....I would be driving over the border, would this make any difference (I realise I'm probably just being paranoid, but I want to make sure).
Thanks again,
Kim

CalgaryAMC

I am offering no advice on whether or not you should go ahead with your plan, but have some practical advice if you do decide to.

If you're driving over the border then make sure the Canadians take the green card (it should be in your passport, part of the I-94W) from you. I've driven across dozens of times and they have never taken it without me asking them to. It's important that they do take this so that your exit from the US is recorded.

On one occasion I was crossing at Sault St. Marie and the young Canadian customs/immigration fellow didn't know he could take it. He sent me back over the bridge to give it to the Americans. The American border guy told me to drive back and tell the Canadian guy to take it off me, which I did.

flower6

Yeah driving will work as well but like AMC said make sure they stamp your passport and take the I-94 out of your passport. borders between USA and Canada are a bit lax so make sure they do it. Its not as strict as the airports.

crg

The airlines do a better job of recovering I-94 cards, but in some ways the landborders are more strict.

If someone is here on the visa waiver, they may not be readmitted after a short visit to Canada. Under section 217, it's up to the officer if they give you another 90 days if you simply go to contiguous territory, or adjacent islands. The program isn't desgined for the 90 days, hop across the border and back for another 90 days. You're supposed to go home within 90 days.

They may admit you, but they may not. You'll be an applicant for admission again and subject to refusal if you can't prove your admissibility. If you wanted to stay more than 90 days, you really should have gotten a real visa.

Windza

From CANADIAN IMMIGRATION FORUM

Ashley or anyone else, are you able to point me to where the exact details of the VWP are located? I have been able to find where it says about not being able to re-new if you try to enter while the VWP is still valid, but nothing about attempting to re-enter from Canada after the VWP expires, my thinking behind this is what would happen in the situation where I had originally flown to Canada and then entered the U.S from there? One other thing...would the U.S have record of my travel in Canada (i.e: if I departed for Australia from Canada, would the U.S know this), if not, how would they know that I hadn't left North America, travelled back into Canada and then attempted to enter? I'm just clinging to the hope that I can still attempt to do this....thanks for the information though :-)
Regards, Kim

CalgaryAMC

The problem, Windza, is not that your plan isn't 100% technically legal, because it is. Which is why you haven't been able to find anything about not being able to re-enter.

The problem is that the officer at the port of entry has the right to refuse you entry if he (or she) is not satisfied that you are entering for a legitimate purpose and with non-immigrant intent. Jumping to Canada for the weekend and coming right back throws up an immediate red flag. They couldn't care less if you'd done a trip around the world in the interim. Remember, what you are proposing is the oldest trick in the book: the 90 day border run .

Now, the officer at POE might well not notice and not decide to investigate it. Or you might get some real a-hole who will grill you to death about it and/or decide not to let you back in. The problem is, POE is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get.

About your case in general. There is absolutely nothing unusual about it. But unfortunately the US doesn't have a hanging-out-until-you-decide-what-to-do-with-your-life visa. They want you to make a decision about this girl: get engaged or get married. If you can't decide to do either, get out! Sadly USCIS just doesn't give a damn how complicated life really is.

Ray

Can a VWP applicant for Admission Be Readmitted To the United States Follwing a Short Trip To an Adjacent Island, Canada, or Mexico?
A:
Generally, VWP applicants admitted under the VWP may be readmitted to the U.S. after a departure to Canada or Mexico or adjacent islands for the balance of their original admission period, provided they are otherwise admissible and meet all the conditions of the VWP, with the exception of arrival on a signatory carrier - in which case the inspecting officers have the discretion to grant the applicants entirely new periods of admission.
The VWP applicant is admissible and may be readmitted to the U.S. under the VWP after a departure to Canada or Mexico or adjacent islands provided that: (A) their authorized period of admission has not expired, (B) they plan to depart the U.S. prior to the expiration date of their period of admission, (C) they present valid, unexpired passports which reflect admission to the U.S. under the VWP, and (D) they continue to meet all criteria set forth in 8 CFR 217 and section 217 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (Act), with the exception of arrival on a signatory carrier.

Basically.. what you are planning is not allowed

CalgaryAMC

I disagree with this. Do you have a source? This is the case for short trips to Canada or Mexico where you would not surrender your I-94W and are then re-admitted based on the pre-existing admission of 90 days.

Terminating one visit altogether, by giving up the I-94W, and then starting a whole new visit is a different matter.

Ray

Been there tried it ...the best source..soon as they saw the date stamp when I last came in that was it ..

Windza

This is interesting because to me this would indicate that any person who had ever been on the VWP can never again enter the U.S through Canada, Mexico or adjacent islands unless they obtain a different status, yet someone who flies to any other country and back is eligible...hmmm, hold on, I'm not allowed to contest this am I....dang....maybe I am screwed ?? Or is it really just the date you last entered that they look at?? Am I allowed to rip a page out of my passport?? ;-)

Windza

What is a "Short Trip" defined as??

Joachim Feise

Windza said on 2/19/2004 17:45:

    > From CANADIAN IMMIGRATION FORUM
    >
    >
    >>That is not correct. The
    >
    > poster from what I understand is wanting to extend
    >
    >>his stay in the US
    >
    > and has asked if he enters Canada then re-enters the US,
    >
    >>will he
    >
    > obtain another 3 months under the Visa Waiver programme?
    >
    > Unfortunatally this plan is not possible. You can enter Canada from the
    > US
    >
    >>but it is not possible to reknew your visa. The VWP for the US
    >
    > specifically
    >
    >>prohibits this. You have to travel outside of North
    >
    > America, to Europe,
    >
    >>Asia, Australia etc. then you can re-enter. If
    >
    > you go to Canada and your
    >
    >>Visa Waiver expires during your stay in
    >
    > Canada you will not be able to enter
    >
    >>the US and will be sent back to
    >
    > Canada.
    >
    >>Also if you fly to Europe for example and re-enter the US
    >
    > just days after
    >
    >>leaving be prepared to explain your reasons for
    >
    > entering the US so soon
    >
    >>after leaving. Even if you are admitted there
    >
    > is no guarauntee that you
    >
    >>will be allowed to enter for 3 months, it is
    >
    > entirely at the discretion of
    >
    >>the visa officer. My friend fly back
    >
    > and forward from Europe three times
    >
    >>like that. Each entry she had to
    >
    > explain more and more her reasons for
    >
    >>spending so much time in the US.
    >
    > The third time the officer said if she
    >
    >>tried again she would not be
    >
    > admitted.
    >
    >>Good luck
    >>Ashley Watson
    >
    >
    > Ashley or anyone
    > else, are you able to point me to where the exact details of the VWP are
    > located?

INA 217 and 8 CFR 217, online on the USCIS website.

    > I have been able to find where it says about not being able to
    > re-new if you try to enter while the VWP is still valid, but nothing
    > about attempting to re-enter from Canada after the VWP expires

The same rules.
You can be readmitted for the remainder of the 90 days. That implies if
the 90 days are over, you can not be readmitted. It's as simple as that.

    > other thing...would the U.S have record of my travel in Canada (i.e: if
    > I departed for Australia from Canada, would the U.S know this), if not,
    > how would they know that I hadn't left North America, travelled back
    > into Canada and then attempted to enter? I'm just clinging to the hope

They can (and most likely will) ask you to provide evidence for your claim.
According to US immigration lawy, everybody showing up at a POE is assumed
to be an immigrant unless that person can show otherwise.

-Joe

CalgaryAMC

I'm not at all surprised; but I dispute that there is any rule set in stone actually forbidding doing it.