dunroving

That's the nature of the beast - every now and then I re-read a posting and think omigod! did I really say that? Unfortunately, the text is only part of it; the intent and intonation are missing (and the little faces really don't help to clarify things much - I have seen real flames followed by a winky smily face - so what does THAT mean?)

I think it's important (for all of us) to be mindful that when someone says how great the UK is, doesn't always mean that they're saying the US is crap, and vice versa. I think there are some absolutely crappy things about the US, but also some awesome things. The same for the UK. On the balance, I'd say I prefer the UK, which is why I'll probably go back (eventually, whether that's next year, my retirement, or straight to Handsworth Cemetary). It's not that we're saying the UK is BETTER, just BETTER for US.

dunroving

And seeing as you asked:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pulaski
It just kinda aggravates me to hear people say how much better things are in the UK, which always makes me wonder why did you leave?

- in 1983, there were not enough jobs in the UK for teachers, but plenty overseas (esp. Bahamas, where I ended up)

why did you stay away so long?

- After 7 years in the Bah., I realized I could no longer be outstanding in the field (I was a P.E. teacher - bad joke) and needed to retrain. The US is about the best place in the world for a graduate level education. In my masters degree I realized I loved statistics and research methods, and moved onto a PhD. Next step logically was to stay and teach (contribute to) the system I had benefitted from and now knew so well.

and why do things seem so bad to you (in the US), when most things seem, IMHO, to be no worse, and often a lot better, than in the UK?

- they don't seem so bad at all, to me (and certainly no worse than the UK, just bad in different ways). I think that (especially if you are imminently ready to leave the US), a protection mechanism kicks in that emphasises the negative, because this reinforces your decision.

- I think the nature of this section of the board is that it focuses on "why are you leaving?" Logically, this will result in more "US bad/UK good" comments than the contrary. It's not a "We hate the US" board by any means, I don't think.

- I'm glad you are a "New Yank"; I know plenty of New Yanks as friends, and they all love it here. Ironically, it's what is British about them that makes them loved by most of their USc friends. I think most of them will live here until they die and will be something between a Brit and a Yank when that happens. But I'm also glad I know that I don't want to follow that path. I'll continue contributing here until the right time comes and then I'll be off, leaving behind a trail of US/UK contacts that will last over time.

Now, if I met a real cutie in the meantime, all that could change.....

ladyofthelake

This is just a curious question, as I don't understand where your experience of UK schools comes from. As I see it, your 2 youngest children were born over here, so they obviously haven't attended UK schools. Did your 3 step sons live with you and attend schools in the UK before you moved over the atlantic? If you think I'm being too nosey, then I apologise. It's just you say that you have experience of both systems, but it seems unclear how.

bromleygirl

No, I don't mind you asking LOTL. I have family with school-age children in the UK and also many friends that have children within the UK school system.

I feel very comfortable with the knowledge that I have of the UK school system and when comparing it to that of the US system I do beleive that the UK system is better.

At the end of the day it's each persons personal preference. I think that UK school children are taught to have a broader outlook on the world that they live in. I also prefer that they start school earlier and how the school holidays are divided out throughout the year.

Lion in Winter

I have to agree, but since it looks as though, although I want to move back to the UK, it's not going to be possible during the next year or two, I have to address the issue of where my now four-year-old will go. In Chicago we now have a branch of the British School (also open in Washington, Boston and I think Phoenix) which imports UK teachers and follows the UK national curriculum. It was originally for children who were just going to be away for a few years and needed to take GCSE etc. but now has a mix of children. It's a private set up, of course. Disappointingly, it is extremely expensive, and worse, it seems to be using a streaming/tracking system which I thought went out with the Dark Ages. They classify children as "below average", "average" and "above average". They keep them in the same classroom, but say they teach them at "different levels".(!) This is done in the name of not holding children back, but from my own experience it is the children in the "lower" groups who feel stupid and are held back. How can it be that this philosophy still persists, and that as soon as I see a glimmer of hope in terms of where to send my child to school, I run up against this antique idea.

So anyway, where have people sent their children to school here? Any alternative experiences?

Taffyles

You are wrong there Pulaski. I have experience too of US schools directly (my own degree) and indirectly my three kids. US education for children does not compare with UK education, no way- and as mentioned in another post, recent research proves it. The education system here is very different- it is very narrow and standards are much lower than in UK. The biggest mistake I've made in my life was removing my two boys from their (old style) Grammar school in Essex- hindsight is 20/20 of course- and we didn't have the internet 11 years ago to do any real research, but if I had my time over again- I would have boarded them with friends and let them finish their education in UK. I see a lot of ex-pats doing that now- using boarding schools.
I have a lot of teacher friends in Uk and they have theri grumbles of course, but I've asked them all if standards have dropped- if A levels are getting easier etc- and they all say no. The A level results this year were outstanding again...... many kids are leaving school now with 4 or 5 good A levels!!!!

REgarding my own children they were all 2 years ahead of their age group when they came here to US and the two boys, in particular, pretty much twiddled their thumbs for years. I pulled my daughter out of school and home schooled her in the end- she got a scholarship to VSA at age 16.

MY 2 boys have very high IQ's and they couldn't stand it in school here-they were climbing the walls with boredom and there's no doubt they were stagnating in school here. They got to the stage that they used to turn up for the exams only (which they aced) and they'd bugger off to the beach the rest of the time- both made the National Dean's list and into the American High School Students of the year books and aced out their SATs- and they were hardly ever there. And the teachers didn't mind- they had strings of As in the grade books from them- they didn't care if the kids turned up or not for class. In their words "we know they know the work". It would have been laughable except they weren't being taught anything- and they were both too young to go straight into college. By the time we fully realised the extent of what we'd done they would have fallen wayyy behind their age group in UK- we couldn't uproot them again and throw them back in that system on their own.
Bromleygirl, as regards your children's education I wholeheartedly agree with you.

ladyofthelake

OK, now I understand. I think in general that I agree with everyone else. UK schools cater to each child as an individual and set the work levels accordingly. Here, I find they all work to the same level from the same work sheets regardless of the childs abilities. The problem is that I'm stuck with it now, so I have to try and make the most of it. I have subscribed to a UK based school education web site which I want my daughter to use regularly in order to keep up. When we return to England this December, we will be doing trips to Tower of London, etc so she ( and my son) can learn British History too. I, and all parents, have as big an influence on their children as the teachers do, so I am determined to use that to full effect.
Having said that, I also want to give some praise for the tuition my son has had so far. He is hard of hearing and has a speech and language delay, so he started school a year early and did Pre-K. He has made a marvelous improvement in the last year, going from moderate delay to slight delay. He would not have been ready to start the reading process this time last year, due to language problems, he does not have any learning dificulties.
What I'm trying to say is that I don't want to bash them too much, but I do wish the more personal school my daughter went to in Hampshire could be uprooted to here. My daughter experienced something similar to this in the UK. She was one of the youngest children in her year, so she was put in a mixed class with the oldest children from the year below. We were very concerned at first that the children in the higher year would be taught at the lower year level. This was not the case at all. The teacher had her work cut out for her as every child was given an individual education at their own level. At the end of the year, parents were very pleased with the end results, especially the ones who had year 2 SAT's. The school was also very careful not to label any child, so this "British School" sounds like it has picked up some American influences.

Taffyles

They've realised in UK that quicker kids need as much attention as those who need remedial help- and there's more provision for them in UK schools (plus the general standard is higher anyway and don't forget Uk children start school a full year earlier than US children).
Children don't all work at the same pace but all should be catered for. In the US there are "gifted" prgrammes but gifted often means a bit of extra reading or such- not working at a faster pace, which some children need. US schools have a lot of help available for children with learning disabilities etc and slower workers- they do not provide for the other end of the scale- which is why high IQ kids are at great risk of dropping out of High school. There's been plenty of research on this but they haven't done much about it.

Many schools in the UK, and definitely in Wales, are fast tracking the more able students now as well as providing the usual remedial help for the less able. With the result many 11 year olds in Wales are sitting and passing GSCE Maths and English.
Some of the exciting changes in the UK system is that the kids who are capable will be able to bypass the GSCE's and go straight on to A level- too many kids have been held back by having to work at a slower pace. US schools concentrate on those who need help to attain average results and the more able are pretty much ignored....its pitiful really and nothing has changed much in the schools since I've been here. The only thing they've done is stop the bussing kids around to provide a racial balance in all schools here in FL- for the first time this year parents can choose which school to send their child now....of course this is creating havoc with the bus scheduling and class size!!!

Pulaski

Of course teachers would tell you that they are better teachers today, working harder and doing more, I say that A level today are devalued currency.

You, from your other posts, clearly have a political axe to grind and therefore your friends in the teaching profession are going to be "pro-Tony". I also have friends and acquaintances in the British teaching profession who tell a rather different tale!

dunroving

I agree with you that the UK system has certain advantages over the US system, but I'm not sure that higher and more passing grades at A level constitutes evidence of "improvement" in the UK system. Grade inflation explains at least some of this pattern.

I know that anecdotal evidence doesn't beat large scale evaluative research, but I also know my nephew is not "8 O-levels" smart (by the standards of the 70s, when I took my O-levels), but that's what he got in 2000, with almost no studying....

ladyofthelake

Has any one else noticed the huge amount of pressure that is placed on children over here? Young children, when tested, are actually told they are being tested, adding to the anxiety. If they don't pass certain tests they have to redo the entire year. I had this rammed home to me several times last year by my daughters teacher, but at the end of the year her report grades were "Exceptional" through out. Why cause so much unnecessary stress at such a young age?
I'm also puzzled by the USA ranking in the reading leagues. Surely all these "Accelerated Reading" schemes must have some effect? Maybe in the future? For all the problems it caused us I certainly hope so. Jessica (my daughter who is now 8) had to take a comprehension test and answer 10 questions for each book she read. If she got 100% correct, she would get either 0.5, 1.0 or 2.0 points, depending on how long the book was. Her goal for the final 9 week period was to get 14 points, which would equate to 14 chapter books. In reality she ended up reading roughly 20 books to reach her goal. This is far more reading than her same age friends have to do in UK, and far more pressure heaped than is necessary.

bromleygirl

LOTL please tell me what the address of the UK based school education web site you have subscribed to - I think that it would be very interesting to look at and may help me prepare my daughter for the move back next summer.

Also talking about testing in the school system here. When my step-sons have had state wide assesment testing we have recieved letters home from the school telling parents not to make any dental or doctors visits, not to let your children have any time off and to make sure that they go to bed early and have a good breakfast in the morning. In the weeks leading up to the 2 weeks of testing the teachers actually teach according to what is on the tests to prepare the children. It appears to me the US schools are more concerned with achieving statistics than childrens education.

Pulaski

Hurrah! I agree whole-heartedly with that statement. Perhaps that is one reason that I am not phased by the thoughts of my children going to a US school. I am an avid reader, and was taught from (shortly before) before I started school, and encouraged to read voraciously, by my mother, who read to me every night before bed when I was a child. I still read as much as I can (current affairs, politics, history, evolution and genetics, physics and other scientific topics etc as well as some fiction too), work and life commitments permitting, and intend to make sure that my children grow up in this environment.

I wish that more people realized that they can't just sit back and let the school system provide their children with education, discipline, and moral guidance.

ladyofthelake

I think you're so right there. Obviously so far the teaching techniques and obsession for results here don't seem to have the desired effect. Also, if they are actually teaching according to what is on the tests to prepare the children, then they don't actually have to understand the subject, just learn parrot fashion. It's all starting to make sense now.

The web site I mentioned earlier is called @school There is a tour you can go on and a few excercises to try out before registering. Once registered kids can attempt any level or exercise on the whole site, and there certainly lots to keep them occupied. They cater for the Early years up to age 11.

Pulaski

Errrr, ..... that is now exactly what is happening in the UK too, which is why I said that by the time I have children ready for school I doubt that the UK education system will be significantly different from the education system in the US!