amythyst

Alright... please note that before you read what I post I am not trying to break any laws I'm just asking questions!

I also apologize that I'm not affiliated with England but I'm having a hard time finding websites to ask these questions.

Ok here goes, I am dating a very wonderful man from Denmark. I'm a native US citizen. We've been visiting back and forth for a while. Now, in my own head, I've been thinking that this guy is THE ONE. So, on my own, I have been doing research on immigration etc...both to and from US.

Now, for the US... I know about this rule with the VWP and you cannot have the INTENT on staying here for any permanent reason. My question is, what determines intent? If he comes to see me again... and things go really well (mind you there is no intent at least on his part, that I know of...) and somewhere down the line marriage pops up. We haven't discussed marriage but its on my mind!! And say we got married. I know under normal circumstances he would have to go home. But I've seen (on this board) many people who have had this happen and then apply for a green card and then he can stay in the country while its processing. That would not be "visa fraud" right? The topic of marriage or him staying here may never come up, I'm just asking because its on my mind... I mean this rule seems so subjective and vague to me. Isn't it within reality that people can have every intention of just visiting hanging out have a really great time and then at some point figure out that they wanna be together?

I of course have no idea what the outcome of this is, but I just wanted to find out ahead of time to know what my options are. Its just I'm getting really really attached to him and being apart for 9-12 months would be total and complete agony. Visitation would also be very difficult.

Thanks in advance and please do not flame me for asking a possible "visa fraud" question. I just think that the rule is so convoluted. I read on one website that it said "maybe" considered fraud but that its generally ok if you wait like 60 days before you get married and then file after that?

Thanks in advance.

Ray

Thats just plain wrong ...

If he visits ..and you get marrried...he returns home
you file the paperwork ..
he returns to you with Green Card sorted

No problem
no worries
happy life

SecretGarden

Do a search on the marriage based visa forum for the key words, "ten foot pole". (Hint: there's a reason why they call it that....)

Happy reading!

~SecretGarden

amythyst

Thanks, I see that key phrase brings up a lot of posts... I guess its a hot topic.

Noorah101

Hi and Welcome to BE.

Very basically, it is illegal to use the VWP or tourist visa to enter the USA with the intent to remain and adjust status to permanent resident. So if either one of you is thinking "well, it MIGHT work out well, and if it DOES, he can stay..." that is having the intent (in my layman's opinion), because you're already considering the scenario ahead of time.

The very best guaranteed way to get what you want, legally, is to do either a K-1 fiance visa or a spouse Immigrant Visa. No worries, no wondering if you're illegal, no sleepless nights wondering if your AOS will be denied and you'll have to go home and get a ban from the USA....

A few months of separation is worth securing your whole future together.

Rene

Gepa

I would have to agree I am currently trying to sort it all out and was overwhellmed with all the info and the questions. The guys on here are Smart and are willing to lend you a hand with the info and there experience.

Don't do anything that could be considered trying to bend or break the rules. Myself and my Fiancee would rather spend 8 months apart than a have our case declined.

I know it is tough as I am going through it all myself. goodluck with what ever you decide.

penguinbar

Do not get married and stay on the VWP! If you do and your case gets denied you cannot appeal! Waiting 60 days and then getting married is still fraud. USCIS is well aware that many people try this route. How can you explain to USCIS that you or your other half just decided to stay in America with no ties at home. Job, Bank account , house or apartment? The laws are getting stricter and stricter. Apply for a K1 or a CR-1 visa. Do some research on here. Do you really want to take a chance that your loved one could be deported, and even jailed and banned from the US? It can and does happen. My husband and I went the K1 route. Better to be apart for a while and do it the right way.

jeffreyhy

a,

You've summarized the situation quite nicely, that's why you'll find so many threads on the subject and so little resolution of conflicting opinions.

If the situation comes up for you on one of your boyfriend's visits, have a consultation with an immigration attorney at that time to discuss what your best options might be based on the specifics of your situation.

As with investing, your own personal tolerance for risk will be a consideration in determining your plan of action.

Regards, JEff

Rete

Welcome to BE

You do NOT have to be British to use the immigration forums. However, not being British means the rest of the forums will seem very strange to you. ;-)

Rete

I disagree with Rene on this interpretation of the intent issue. There are many other factors that make up proof that the intent was there to marry and remain to adjust status. Remember the USCIS does not at that point have to prove you had intent, you will be the one if questioned about intent to give proof that there was no intent.

ian-mstm

I agree... but only partially. To me, it doesn't matter if the USC has intent or not... the onus for intent is on the non-USC partner who is seeking entry to the US. Whether the USC is secretly thinking what a good idea it would be, has no bearing on the issue. The intent remains with the person seeking admission.

Ian

meauxna

Forget that 60 day thing.. I know some people swear on it like gospel but around here no one has followed that school of thought. If you look at the document they cite, you'll see it is for the State Dept, which is more typically for people OUTside the US.

You can't just throw up vague objections to doing things the 'right' way. We've all overcome all sorts of difficulties and 'impossibilities' to reach our objectives.
Likewise, the agony of separation card doesn't play well. This is part of a long distance international relationship.
Fact is, he is from a friendly, Western country that is inexpensive to get to/around and he has free travel privileges to visit the US as you have to his country.

What's wrong with him getting here, things going well and you two starting the petition for whichever visa you choose, together? Then he finishes his visit and gets to return home to close up his life there properly.
If you choose the K-1 route, it's more like 6 months, not 9-12.

Making a move like this can be a big thing; I think it's unfair to spring it on someone 'hey, now that you are here let's make this life changing decision quickly and you move halfway 'round the world starting... now!'
And this from someone who has done just that.
Er, the moving, not the demanding.

Songbird

I agree. imo it would be 'intent' if for example the non-USC prior to 'visiting', gave up their job, sold off their worldly possessions, had a bon voyage party, and turned up at JFK with a wedding gown or tux in their case Intent, in this respect is (imo) clearly defined by preparation ( in much the same way the judicial system distinguishes between murder and manslaughter - the end result may be the same but intent is the crucial difference).

Further as Ian says, the intent has to be on the part of the non-USC, they are the ones subject to the regulations not the USC. To make this issue even more complicated is the fact that it is perfectly legit for the non-USC to use the VWP with the intent to get married while visiting. In theory they could actually turn up at JFK with said wedding attire in a suitcase - though they would have to be able to convince the POE officer that they weren't planning on staying - good luck with that one! *lol*

When I returned to the US with my now hubby, I had no intention of staying. Plan was we would spend a bit more time together, I would return to the UK and visit later in the year. Sure we were in love, and yes I had decided he was 'the one' but I had no intention (or inkling) that I was going to marry him that trip, let alone end up staying here! The whole thing was totally chaotic, unplanned and to be perfectly honest every now and again when I stepped outside our 'love bubble' - seemed far too complicated to sort out everything I had left behind in the UK from the USA. Oh getting married was the comparatively easy part; docs fed ex'd from the UK, dress from ebay, cake from walmart, ceremony in the TV / bingo / community room of his apartment block , the hard part was trying to tie up my UK life from the USA. That was a total nightmare and it's still not all sorted nearly two years later

Yes I got married and AOS'd from the VWP - did I intend to do that when I entered with my one suitcase - nope. Did my USC hubby intend to ask me to marry him and stay ? I don't think so, but even if he had then that would have been legit on his part. I can tell you this, though I don't regret for one second marrying him, I DO regret the circumstances. While most newly wedded couples are basking in the warm honeymoon period glow, we were up to our necks dealing with USCIS and the chaos left behind in the UK to sort out. Not the sort of pressure any couple (no matter how much they are in love) really want to be dealing with. Speaking from my experience, there really are worst things than being apart for a few extra months - the VWP marriage and all the accompanying complications for one

jeffreyhy

I agree with Ian. But I'm not the CIS officer deciding this or any other case.

This never ending debate is always interesting, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder and intent is as determined by the CIS.

Those who wish to play the game roll the dice and take their chances.

Regards, JEff

Norri

To make it a hat trick, I agree with Ian too