Scott

We are currently married. She came here as spouse of a US Citizen
(me). Her conditional Green Card expires in September 2003.
Our marriage has fallen apart. We have lived separately most of the
time since marriage, matter of fact, we have not even consummated the
marriage.

In spite of all this, she probably is looking to file I-751 to remove
conditions as she wants to live in the US. But I doubt if INS will
approve it and grant her permanent residency since we have only one
year's tax return which we filed jointly. Barring that, there are
absolutely no joint financial records, leases that have her name,
credit cards, etc. Absolutely none.

Besides, it is not right for her to petition the I-751 anyway since we
will soon be divorced. Now, we have not filed a divorce petition yet.
For reasons that I cannot go into, I am waiting until after her
conditional green card expires to file for divorce (if I do it now,
she and her family will contest the divorce and make my life hell). My
premise is that after her green card expires, she and her family will
not be able to contest the divorce as vigorously as the prospect of
deportation will be looming large.

The question is, what happens after her green card expires in
September? Will the INS send her a notice asking her to leave the
country? If they don't, should I write to the INS that the marriage
has broken down and that her visa has also expired? She lives in my
house now and I am wondering if I don't report anything to the INS, I
will be harboring an out-of-status alien.

Please help.

Andy Platt

It's a tricky issue but she could argue that you are abusing her by not
filing with her and/or holding up the divorce proceedings. If I were you I
would make things easy as you can and let it go.

Andy.

--
I'm not really here - it's just your warped imagination.

"Scott" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > We are currently married. She came here as spouse of a US Citizen
    > (me). Her conditional Green Card expires in September 2003.
    > Our marriage has fallen apart. We have lived separately most of the
    > time since marriage, matter of fact, we have not even consummated the
    > marriage.
    > In spite of all this, she probably is looking to file I-751 to remove
    > conditions as she wants to live in the US. But I doubt if INS will
    > approve it and grant her permanent residency since we have only one
    > year's tax return which we filed jointly. Barring that, there are
    > absolutely no joint financial records, leases that have her name,
    > credit cards, etc. Absolutely none.
    > Besides, it is not right for her to petition the I-751 anyway since we
    > will soon be divorced. Now, we have not filed a divorce petition yet.
    > For reasons that I cannot go into, I am waiting until after her
    > conditional green card expires to file for divorce (if I do it now,
    > she and her family will contest the divorce and make my life hell). My
    > premise is that after her green card expires, she and her family will
    > not be able to contest the divorce as vigorously as the prospect of
    > deportation will be looming large.
    > The question is, what happens after her green card expires in
    > September? Will the INS send her a notice asking her to leave the
    > country? If they don't, should I write to the INS that the marriage
    > has broken down and that her visa has also expired? She lives in my
    > house now and I am wondering if I don't report anything to the INS, I
    > will be harboring an out-of-status alien.
    > Please help.

jeffreyhy

Scott,

I think you may have made some errors in judgement.

First, if your wife has a "conditional Green Card", she is already a Permanent Resident. To remove the conditions she does not need to show a legitimate marriage with you now, she only needs to show that she had a legitimate marriage with you in the beginning. She's already done that once - otherwise she wouldn't be a conditional Permanenet Resident. So half her battle is already won.

Your failure to file for a divorce may help her to argue that the marriage is legitimate and was entered into in good faith. Indeed, nothing in your post indicates that the marriage was not entered into in good faith, only that it went bad quickly. You have not given any reason why the BCIS should not accept her application to remove conditions and let her stay in the US.

I don't know much about family law, and it varies in the details from state to state, but in general the longer the marriage the more entitled are the partners to share in the marital assets. The woman is living in the marital home. And you have abandoned it, you're not living together? It would not surprise me if your failure to file for a divorce had not only not weakened her arguements with the BCIS to remove conditions, it has also strengthened her hand in the divorce court when a divorce action is eventually filed.

As far as the lack of joint finances, joint finances is not a requirement for obtaining Permanent Residence based on marriage. Joint finances is one indicator of a legitimate marriage, but it's a legitimate marriage that is the requirement for Permanent Resident status and there are other indicator's of a legitimate marriage besides joint finances.

I think you should be talking to divorce and immigration attorneys, not an internet news group.

Regards, JEff

[email protected]

"Andy Platt" wrote in message news:...
    > It's a tricky issue but she could argue that you are abusing her by not
    > filing with her and/or holding up the divorce proceedings. If I were you I
    > would make things easy as you can and let it go.
    >
    > Andy.
    >
    > --
    > I'm not really here - it's just your warped imagination.
    >
    > "Scott" wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > We are currently married. She came here as spouse of a US Citizen
    > > (me). Her conditional Green Card expires in September 2003.
    > > Our marriage has fallen apart. We have lived separately most of the
    > > time since marriage, matter of fact, we have not even consummated the
    > > marriage.
    > >
    > > In spite of all this, she probably is looking to file I-751 to remove
    > > conditions as she wants to live in the US. But I doubt if INS will
    > > approve it and grant her permanent residency since we have only one
    > > year's tax return which we filed jointly. Barring that, there are
    > > absolutely no joint financial records, leases that have her name,
    > > credit cards, etc. Absolutely none.
    > >
    > > Besides, it is not right for her to petition the I-751 anyway since we
    > > will soon be divorced. Now, we have not filed a divorce petition yet.
    > > For reasons that I cannot go into, I am waiting until after her
    > > conditional green card expires to file for divorce (if I do it now,
    > > she and her family will contest the divorce and make my life hell). My
    > > premise is that after her green card expires, she and her family will
    > > not be able to contest the divorce as vigorously as the prospect of
    > > deportation will be looming large.
    > >
    > > The question is, what happens after her green card expires in
    > > September? Will the INS send her a notice asking her to leave the
    > > country? If they don't, should I write to the INS that the marriage
    > > has broken down and that her visa has also expired? She lives in my
    > > house now and I am wondering if I don't report anything to the INS, I
    > > will be harboring an out-of-status alien.
    > >
    > > Please help.
Sir,
whatever this individual has done to you if i were you i will rather
reflect on the good things she did while you were enjoying your love
and hence i will reconsider my decisions. the reason is that this
person has waisted her whole two years and has achieved nothing.You
must have probably abused her as well which is a common thing among
spouses of an alien and US citizen.if i knew this lady she will not be
sent out of this country and you will likely have to compensate her
for the time waisted here in the US which you are trying to avooid by
waiting till the green card to expire before the divorce
proceedings(you are a wicked man indeed). BCIS also knows that US
citizens take advantages of their spouses for the sake of seeking
immigration benefits forthem and as such any good lawyer or informed
person can turn this case down on ypu very easily without her having
to go back to her home country.
from the content of this postings you are doing everything possible to
satisfy your intentions to the fullest by using all tricks and
advantages at your disposal but this is going to affect the life of
someone you once told you love and convinced to move from her country
out of sacrifice because she probably had to quit her job and leave
her properties as well.Even if she was poor and jobless remember there
is no place like home.
i am speaking as a neutral person who wouldn't like to see this happen
to my sister.For heaven's sake think twice.

Folinskyinla

Hi:

If your marriage was a fraudulent marriage, then it is highly likely that BOTH of you engaged in the fraud. Think about that.

Also, when push comes to shove on a removal proceeding before the Immigration Judge -- the burden of proof is the other way compared to getting the green card in the first place. In getting the green card, the alien has to prove eligibility. To take it away, the BICE has to prove the fraud -- and that can be hard to do.

If I represented your wife in proceedings and you were to testify in the tone you display in your writing -- you'd come across as a vindictive son of a bitch not to be trusted -- and would preversely establish the bona fides of the marriage.

bobzy

Scott,

I'm going to be brutal and open this thread to the flame throwers, but you need to wake up real fast:

You have a lot more company than you might imagine. INS told me a few years ago that this is a common complaint, and from there they gave me a wake up call that I am about to give to you, telling me that "this is common knowledge on the streets of places like Guangzhou."

Good guess if she has stayed this long. Mr. F. is correct: you don't look so good if you have waited this long to make the discovery. And her family probably counted on this.

If INS hasn't changed since 1999, they don't give a damn about these things. And in the majority of cases, they don't do an interview. She could simply forge your name on the I-751 and there isn't a thing on this green earth that you can do about it. I am living proof. I believe that I am the first person to successfully use the Freedom of Information Act to force the INS to give me a copy of the I-751 with a forged signature.


Right and wrong aren't important at this point. By staying in this country without your association, she has shown that she has every intention of staying here.

That she could easily forge your signature on the I-751 is the least of your worries. For all you know, she might already have been documenting a case of abuse against you and be getting ready to file with that. If she does so, you could be in very deep trouble.

Do you have any idea of what it is like to have the police show up at your house, ready to arrest you, no matter how false are the charges? Can you say, "I lost my job, I lost the trust of my family and friends and colleagues, I lost every dime I ever saved in my life, I even lost my future income in payments to her?"

I got lucky. The police didn't believe her, and to my absolute shock, charged *her* and removed *her* from the house on the belief that I was in danger. The attorney at the local women's shelter took my case to keep her away from me.

If someone's family knows the American ropes and has targeted you as a victim, what makes you think that they will change their minds after she is "free and clear"? It is to her advantage to wait until after she gains permanent residency to start cleaning you for all she can get.

Ain't gonna happen. Mr. F. is correct.

She is not out of status. The only thing that will happen is that she (and later, her family) will continue to live in your house, and you will continue to pay for it. In addition, your attorney will ask that all of your financial assets be put in escrow -- so you will suddenly be broke. You will eventually give up and let her have half. The point at which your attorney advises you to give up will be when the attorney is able to jack up enough fees and expenses to claim the other half.

Could you please register on the browser-based forum and write through a private message? You should consider some pre-emptive actions.

I know that the hypothesizing above sounds brutal, but it is not unrealistic. When it happened to me, I met quite a few others who had lived the same hell (mostly women, not men). I recently read that BCIS itself has estimated that as high as 40 percent of marriages to aliens is through this sort of fraud. (I was looking for something else and didn't think to bookmark it -- I'll look if anyone is interested.) But this is not how they define marriage fraud, and so they are not going to get involved.

You need to talk with others who have seen it happen -- this isn't the right place.

Dekka's Angel

OK, now I'm going to play Devil's Advocate a second. Why is there is an assumption that this person is vindictive and vengeful and somehow wrong for behaving strategically in when he times his divorce (to minimize her contesting it, something done ALL the time), merely because his wife is someone who immigrated to this country using their marriage as the vehicle to enter lawfully, but now theoretically doesn't want to leave for reasons having nothing to do with her husband?

I have some recent RL reasons (not my own situation, thankfully!) for feeling that there is an imbalance and unfairness in how we look at these situations when the deterioration of a marriage rapidly follows AOS where the US citizen is a man and the wife is the immigrant. For example, many people are willing to believe that female immigrants are often victimized and abused when they marry US citizen husbands and move to the US. This is a good thing because the abuse that many immigrant wives face is quite real, and finally there are remedies to address it without penalizing the abused spouse for being abused by making them subject to deportation against their will.

At the same time, however, sometimes folks seem quite resistant to the idea that there are immigrants who manipulate and rely on genuine feelings of love or even just deluded lust for them and marry for mercenary reasons having to do with getting permanent residency, and who maintain the facade of a legitimate romance just long enough to survive AOS, before withdrawing emotionally or legally from the duped spouse without which they could not have had the benefit of sponsorship for US residency. This difference in reaction seems most pronounced when men are the US citizen victim and women are the immigrants, if the differences in reactions on NGs is any indication about perceptions in the world at large.

I have no idea what the answers are, or the statistics for either vengeful or deceptive ex-spouses. Or what the impact on a legitimate marriage is of this almost-inhumane legal process of bringing a romantic partner to the US legally -- it would seem that it could fatally injure even the most genuine of marriages. But nobody has those answers, because in the end all we can do is read the words people write telling their stories after the fact.

Given this, I admit that it bothers me that all the presumptions favor the immigrant's remaining, so long as they just hang on to their marriage until AOS, even if it is actually true that the marriage was non-viable immediately after AOS, and the US citizen was misled and would not have married and sponsored the immigrant if the truth had been known. Making AOS the "magic line" which shifts the burden of proof on an immigrant's intentions for marriage troubles me because it is based on archaic notions about marriage that do not confront the reality of a country where far more people are trying to get in at any cost (including death, it seems) and by any means necessary than the number trying to get out. Anyone who has spent any time around someone truly mercenary or even just with a well-developed sense of selfishness will know that a few months or even a couple of years delaying one's departure from a loveless marriage would be nothing compared to the payoff of permanent residency in the US for someone who really wants it and has few viable options to get it. To me, this type of behavior is just as probable as the possibility that a US citizen person who feels hurt in love will unfairly lash out and try to harm the immigrant person that hurt them even though when the marriage began there was genuinely a romantic relationship between the parties.

The conundrum is that there has to be a consistent way of dealing with these possibilities fairly so long as the US chooses to sharply restrict its borders. For now it has chosen to adopt a policy establishing AOS as the arbitrary dividing line in deciding when a marriage is "likely bona fide at its inception". As commendable as that policy might be in some situations, it is highly problematic in application for others. It all comes down to the specific facts, of course. Which none of us know with certainty.

Don't get me wrong - if it was left up to me I'd have a lot looser borders, so I am by no means anti-immigrant. But at the same time, I am a realist and pragmatist, particularly in the area of family law. In marriages where both parties are US born citizens fraud and deception about feelings and true motives, even before a marriage, are more depressingly-common than we would like to think. Particularly where differentials in status and/or money come into play. Why should how we view the parties (culturally, we applaud men who divorce gold digger wives, as an example) to an early divorce automatically change just because the immigrant might have to leave the US against their will, when but for their marriage they would not have been here in the first place?

bobzy

You're right on the money. There is no easy way to prove that someone did or did not enter into a marriage with bad intentions, and so that is an issue in which the BCIS won't involve itself. And this can go both ways -- I have posted on this forum for USCs who appear to be getting scammed, but I have also posted for alien spouses who entered into a marriage with a USC who appears to have destroyed someone's life and career. The latter is especially sad when it leaves someone homeless, penniless, dis-allowed to work, and with no friends or relatives in a country with a foreign language, culture, and legal system.

I know that some people think that these threads take the forum too far off topic, but I think that such occasional diversions are valuable if they cause individuals on both sides of the crick to consider red flags of potential trouble. I wish I had these insights in 1995; my life would be very different today.

The good news is that Zhengyu and I have each been through rough marriages and divorce, and the insights have given us each confidence in our choice of the other. Perhaps others can learn without having to experience the pain.

Folinskyinla

Hi Angel:

Please note that **I** made no presumptions whatsover. I just noted how he sounded and how he would come across in court.

From the contents of his posting and based upon my experience, I doubt very much if she would get deported.

As an attorney, you are aware that if the evidence is in equipose, the party with the burden of proof loses.

Paul Wolaver

Whew... I don't pick up on this vindictive stuff at all...

Sounds to me like a poor dood who's been used, and is really lost as to what
to do!!!

what indicates this attitude?

I'm just curious...



Folinskyinla wrote:

    > Originally posted by Scott
    > > We are currently married. She came here as spouse of a US Citizen
    > > (me). Her conditional Green Card expires in September 2003.
    > > Our marriage has fallen apart. We have lived separately most of the
    > > time since marriage, matter of fact, we have not even consummated the
    > > marriage.
    > >
    > > In spite of all this, she probably is looking to file I-751 to remove
    > > conditions as she wants to live in the US. But I doubt if INS will
    > > approve it and grant her permanent residency since we have only one
    > > year's tax return which we filed jointly. Barring that, there are
    > > absolutely no joint financial records, leases that have her name,
    > > credit cards, etc. Absolutely none.
    > >
    > > Besides, it is not right for her to petition the I-751 anyway since we
    > > will soon be divorced. Now, we have not filed a divorce petition yet.
    > > For reasons that I cannot go into, I am waiting until after her
    > > conditional green card expires to file for divorce (if I do it now,
    > > she and her family will contest the divorce and make my life hell). My
    > > premise is that after her green card expires, she and her family will
    > > not be able to contest the divorce as vigorously as the prospect of
    > > deportation will be looming large.
    > >
    > > The question is, what happens after her green card expires in
    > > September? Will the INS send her a notice asking her to leave the
    > > country? If they don't, should I write to the INS that the marriage
    > > has broken down and that her visa has also expired? She lives in my
    > > house now and I am wondering if I don't report anything to the INS, I
    > > will be harboring an out-of-status alien.
    > >
    > > Please help.
    > Hi:
    > If your marriage was a fraudulent marriage, then it is highly likely
    > that BOTH of you engaged in the fraud. Think about that.
    > Also, when push comes to shove on a removal proceeding before the
    > Immigration Judge -- the burden of proof is the other way compared to
    > getting the green card in the first place. In getting the green card,
    > the alien has to prove eligibility. To take it away, the BICE has to
    > prove the fraud -- and that can be hard to do.
    > If I represented your wife in proceedings and you were to testify in the
    > tone you display in your writing -- you'd come across as a vindictive
    > son of a bitch not to be trusted -- and would preversely establish the
    > bona fides of the marriage.
    > --
    > Certified Specialist
    > Immigration & Nat. Law
    > Cal. Bar Board of Legal Specialization
    > Posted via http://britishexpats.com

Folinskyinla

Hi:

When a marriage breaks up, the truth about the breakup is usually hard to find. That is one of the reasons the US has pretty much gone to a "no-fault" divorce system.

I don't know what the facts truly are and who is to know? Also, who says a marriage has to be "consumated"? Under the immigration laws, that is only required if the marriage is of the "proxy" variety. In the one BIA case on the subject, the BIA ruled that a marriage need NOT be consumated in order to be considered a valid marriage. [BTW, in that 1968 case, the US husband wanted a housekeeper to take care of him, he was in poor health and was incapable of intercourse, she liked him and wanted to take care of him -- the BIA opined that their reasons were "better than most" for getting married. I LOL every time I read that sentence].

Maybe the guy did get shafted. Maybe not. Why do I consider him vindictive? He did NOT ask HOW do I get out of this marriage; he did NOT ask what are MY liabilities under the affidavit of support? What he DID ask -- how will she be deported -- that strikes me as vindictive. His vindiveness may be justified, but it is still being vindictive.

bobzy

Sounds like the poor guy has allowed her to live in his house without his presence -- that hardly strikes me as mean spirited. For USCs to presume that there is some kind of rule that says that the couple is supposed to show evidence of living as husband and wife is not something that I see as vindictive. It is simply a naive expectation about the way that our government cares about its citizens.

The movie Pacific Heights (Michael Keaton in his bad guy role) reminds me so much of what happened to me and to many other people that I met a few years ago. I don't know if it is so easy for a "professional tenant" to swipe a landlord's property as depicted in the movie, but immigration policy (policy, not law) makes it it easy for a trained immigrant to hijack a USCs life. The USC is naive to actual practice while the alien is very knowledgeable of the process, so the USC is caught by suprise, and doesn't realize what happened until it is too late. (Not always, of course -- just in the case of thieves!)

This poor fellow very well might end up paying for a house that her alian family will one day inhabit. That might be technically right in terms of current BCIS policy and local divorce court practice, whether or not law, but it is morally wrong. If the package date says the fish is still technically fresh but it stinks, it flunks the smell test and I won't buy it. This marriage doesn't pass the smell test.

And in my case, with a forged signature on *at least one* federal document, my ex-wife broke a federal law which, as I understand, could put her in federal prison before deportation. But instead, I am the villian; I am the vindictive person for having such naive thoughts that this is what should happen.

The good news is that BCIS policy does seem to be changing, and I would like to think that the noise that some of us made a few years ago resulted in positive change.

Folinskyinla

Hi:

Forged signature is something else.

I had one case where USC wife filed for dissolution of marriage -- in the morning, she had a hearing on the OSC in Superior Court in order to get a TRO to keep him from dissapating the assets of the marriage community. At conclusion of the hearing, she walked 6 blocks to INS and executed an oath about the fraudulent nature of their marriage.

In the ensuing deportation proceedings, the INS attorney stipulated to termination upon being shown the transcript from the Superior Court -- she had given sworn testimony in two different forums which contradicted each other. Which one was true? I don't know -- but she wasn't credible any more and she just appeared vindictive.

As I've mentioned, its hard to tell what is true and what isn't in situations like this. If the USC comes in with "I want to protect my interests", that's one thing -- but if the stated goal is to nail the alien spouse -- that raises all types of red flags.

Dekka's Angel

I wasn't there, obviously, and didn't review any of the testimony. But absent a direct contradiction in her testimony about something material (i.e. affirmatively saying in one place there was no fraud, and in the other saying there was), going to both places in the order she did is totally normal behavior and frankly conduct I'd personally recommend *from a family law perspective*. In a community property state, if you truly have a dissipation concern the only way to prevent it is to get an unnoticed TRO/OSC simultaneously with filing divorce or legal separation to lock everything down. Until that type of order issues, your spouse has free dominion and control over everything in the marital estate and you could in very short order be penniless. It happens ALL the time; and a subsequent order saying that that the dissipator must pay you back is meaningless when the money is gone. Many ex parte calendars are first thing in the morning so there's nothing special about her going to family court before heading down to BCIS. I myself might have advised her to do it in that order - since once the INS is notified, if the immigrant spouse really was No Good, the odds of him cleaning her out and using her funds to go underground were markedly increased if he wasn't taken into custody.

If the USC was ultimately trying for annulment or divorce based on fraud at the inception, the steps she took to report that fraud and get it handled when she learned of it are probative of the ultimate question of whether she was in defrauded (i.e she can waive and ratify the fraud by inaction after knowledge), from a family law perspective. In that situation, there is nothing about going to the BCIS and reporting fraud that changes, without more, the self-protective character of her actions. And nothing inconsistent about also going to the family court to protect yourself. That's not vindictiveness to me. That's smart. And thorough.

But again, I do concede that I wasn't there and did not see the testimony before either the Court or the BCIS official. But if a proceeding was dismissed only because her mere actions indicated vindictiveness and a lack of credibility to immigration folks (again I'm not speaking about her actual testimony, which I assume contained a material inconsistency) then that is fundamentally unfair to the USC spouse. IMO.

Folinskyinla

Angel:

In the Superior Court she took the measures to preserve the "community" [in quotes for you non-California non-legal types -- its a term of art] which they had accumulated in their life together.

To La Migra, she stated the marriage was sham and they had no life together.