Pizzawheel

Farage says something smart!

Pizzawheel

Even worse- he was right.

Oink

Why didn't they just join the Lib Dems?

dave_j

Perhaps a little off the original topic but consistent with the thread title.
Those among us who see and have seen the european commission as a self serving organisation have witnessed the negotiations between the UK and the EU as being eminently predictable.
The manner in which the EU dealt with the greek crisis should have taught the UK a lesson in that the EU would act to ensure that the EU commission, like the EU banking system in the greek crisis, would be uppermost in the negotiations and the greek people are still suffering as a result while the EU banking system continues to flourish.
The EU could from the outset have agreed to establish post-brexit trade rules whilst discussing details of brexit itself but refused to do so because it always understood that we would eventually see ourselves at a moment in history, as the EU understands well, when the train would be near to hitting the buffers. No doubt, as unelected officials, they viewed the political class much as I do.. a group of individuals who view life as a series of events each evaluated and acted on to improve their personal standing irrespective of the health of the wider community. Such people are incapable of seeing the wider picture and agreeing compromise and as politicians, having initiated a referendum, would be unwilling to accept the consequences for fear of personal blame.
Although shocked, the EU sought to negate the outcome of brexit by maneuvering the UK into a far off but predictable corner.
As a supporter of a no-deal brexit, even though it'll hit me in the pocket, I see the UK as a beneficiary of a no-deal exit. The EU will become even more bureaucratic over time and the EU structure of rich north versus poor south will inevitably cause the euro to fail or to be retrenched into a two or even three speed europe. This continual papering over the cracks will provide opportunities to an independent and revitalised UK.
In the short term brexit will be difficult for the UK but it has shown that the EU commission to be nobody's friend but itself.
For those of us who value democratic decision making, this might be worth a look...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiUF...ature=youtu.be

Vulcanoid

The reason negotiations were "eminently predictable" is that the Quitlings' entire position is predicated on non-members of a club being given an equal or better treatment than members of said club, and no club in history has been dumb enough to make that offer.

dave_j

I agree that it was always unreasonable to have expected the EU to agree to any document that appeared to show that the UK would benefit from leaving the club.
I believe that the UK completely misunderstood the EU commission in that they would fail to behave like politicians. The commission have no electorate to concern them and were single minded enough to push for a pro EU outcome, not to satisfy their nation contingents, but to ensure that the commission's future existence.
May thought that the EU would seek to ensure mutual benefit and for this reason agreed a number of points early on, eg the payment, but this was never reciprocated and throughout the process she continued to buckle thinking that at some point the dictates of political common sense would kick in.. but of course they never did.
Had May realised how the EU would behave following the triggering of article 50 then preparations for a no-deal outcome would have been made a first order priority from day 1. The fact that this didn't happen is a major argument for May's resignation. Her appalling decision to test the electorate at the last general election ensured that we would get to where we are.
Her deal is bad, no it's awful. Why would the EU, given their stance during the past two/three years, agree to any trade deal that wasn't overwhelmingly to the EU advantage before allowing the UK to leave? I don't have a great of faith in the average UK politician but rejecting May's deal lifted them from the swamp of everlasting stench into bright daylight from which I expect them to fall back again before this business is finished.
Although late in the day and ill prepared, I still think that no-deal is better than May's deal.

Vulcanoid

May's insistence that the only acceptable "deal" is the one that appeases the extremist fanatics, whilst ignoring every promise they made during the campaign of lies, is the sole reason for this situation.

The closest thing she has a mandate for is EEA membership (as the promise beforehand on which the vote was predicated was "nobody is threatening our place in the single market").

Unfortunately, the Quitlings, as is their wont, immediately rewrote the rules, to demand that having lied to bare permission for a minimal change, the only acceptable outcome was wholesale vandalism.

There's not a lot anyone in Brussels could do to save Westminster from that once she decided to surrender to the ERG.

scot47

The Rees-Mogg Gang win. Up here in Scotland we will be leaving the UK. Goodbye !

dbd33

That's their job.

Taking the eggs our of the omelette was always a stupid idea bound to result in a mess. The omelette administrators are obliged to try to prevent the egg removers from taking the cheese too.

I'm still not certain though that voting for Brexit was more stupid than voting for Trump. Probably, but he could still start a nuclear war.

DeanN

Agreed. You can be a Remain voter, as I was, and disagree with Brexit in principle but also recognise that the country voted to leave.

Had May gone about things by standing up for her party's extremists and pushing for a soft Brexit, which is what such the referendum result called for, then things would have been very different.

Blaming the EU is delusional. This mess is May's alone.

dbd33

Cameron. May had no chance. And the country voted to leave by a margin of two men and a dog, it's not the mandate for dramatic action May claims.

So, the scale of this cock up; is it a bigger mistake than the Iraq War, the partition of Ireland, the partition of India, the Balfour Declaration, the Boer War - how far back to we have to go to find a shower of dickheads comparable to Cameron and the Current Parliamentarians?

Edo

dave_j while you were typing up your long posts about the bad boys of the EU, the petition to revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU has been gaining an increasing number of signatures by the British public. Safe to say you know something that they don't.

Snowy560

I signed it. I knew Brexit was going to be horrific but I didn't dream it would be this awful.
The thing that irritates me profoundly is how May keeps going on about the will of the British people when what she really means is the will of the extremists in her party that she can't stand up to.

dave_j

You misunderstand. The EU aren't bad boys, they simply understood what was required and stood their ground. They may have overplayed their hand a little, but who wouldn't when holding four aces against a pair of twos.
But we are where we are, the options are limited. It'll be a little like investing, whatever you do will be seen with hindsight as being wrong.

dbd33

It's not like that at all. It's like you're in the pub, smoking man and a fat guy with untidy hair say, for a laugh, "why don't you hit yourself over the head with a hammer?" so you do and then you complain that your head hurts.

Future generations of children will not hear "if Johnny told you to stick your head in a gas oven, would you do it?" but "If Nigel told you to leave the EU ... "