Almost Canadian

Leaving means leaving doesn't it? No one was ever able to argue with any credibility that the UK could leave, but still be part of it. This talk of "hard Brexit" or "soft Brexit" is nonsense. You leave and you may call that "hard" if you wish to and then you try and negotiate a new deal with the EU. No one ever suggested that leaving meant remaining part of the single market as that, automatically, requires the UK to accept the migration that is part of it.

Canada has a struck a deal with the EU that does not require each to allow citizens of the other to move freely; why can't the UK do the same?

The issue is that there are too many MPs that wish to remain and are doing all to ensure that happens. It's not simply the "extremists" in the government that are to blame as one could argue that the so called hard brexiteers are the only ones that are attempting to perform that which the referendum result mandated. I don't believe that one of the answers available in the referendum was, "Leave, but still remain part of the single market" Maybe I am mistaken, but I don't believe that I am.

macadian

No deal better than a bad deal? Anyone remember that?....time to walk long past!

Paul_Shepherd

I am of a very similar opinion, I think May has tried to please everyone and pleased no one. The no deal Brexit does scare me purely because of the reaction of companies potentially abandoning the UK because of the unknown future, which is understandable, there is no scenario to plan for, but like it or not, the UK is leaving the EU, so I hope a deal can be sought.

The EU should only ever have been a trading block between European countries.... no more. If it had stayed that way, I would never of had a problem with it, after all trade between countries is the life blood of any country’s economy. However it didn’t stay that way, the EU mutated into a bureaucratic monster over time, with closer and closer integration with the end goal being a United States of Europe.

I have a problem with this, not because I am anti Europe, on the contrary I love Europe, but common sense dictates that a United States of Europe would never work, How can you possibly force 1000s of years of opposing and differing cultures into and under one federal government in the space of 40-50 years?? If this is forced it will result in a two tier Europe.. the rich and the poor....and inevitably as you say the Euro will fail, i am not an economist, and its probably a little more complex than that....but thats how I see it in layman's terms.

I do think that the EU as it stands will eventually collapse, it will only take one more of the bigger members to leave and it will be a pointless union, it won’t survive, this may sound far fetched, but what would have happened if Le Pen had been elected? If this nearly happened last time, it could happen again, I think many Europeans are dissatisfied with what the EU has become.

DeanN

Prior to the referendum many prominent Brexiteers were saying that Britain could remain in the single market. In a video on the Vote Leave website, Daniel Hannan said 'Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market’, while Owen Paterson is quoted as saying ‘Only a madman would actually leave the Market’. At various times pre-ref Aaron Banks and Nigel Farage also spoke in favour of the Norway option, which would involve remaining in the single market.

macadian

This may provide some insight as to why we are where we are?

dbd33

I don't see how. The picture suggests that Ms. May knew she was being asked to do a stupid thing but took it on out of a sense of duty. She probably hoped to mitigate the ill effects. In the end she hasn't been able to adequately lipstick the pig but she's done as well as anyone could reasonably have hoped and, I think, done at least as well as anyone else would have done. I can't imagine Jeremy Corbyn successfully negotiating the purchase of a ticket at a tombola so certainly not him. Farage? Boris? Jacob Nineteenth-Century? You're having a laugh.

Note that I think May loathsome and incompetent in general but it's no good faulting her for this except for having the arrogance to think that she could somehow make it less of a disaster.

macadian

Yes, a pig is still a pig despite the lipstick.....it must have become apparent to her very quickly, how much of a pig her deal was.....If as you say, she took on a job she did not want....negotiating leaving the EU in the knowledge that the EU would play hardball personified, her being a "Remainer", with hindsight, she should have stood aside. As to who might have taken the helm, not much to choose from.
The current deal is a bad deal and I can't see the EU sweetening the pot for her. So, if it all falls down and we end up staying in the EU and simply cast aside the referendum result, then all the stalling and prevarication in the Commons will have paid off handsomely, A plague on all of their houses. Given where we are, I lean towards maintaining the stance of "No deal is preferable to a bad deal" and walk.
I read somewhere that futility can be defined as trying the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result......bring on the pig once more......

Almost Canadian

Unless you interview every one that voted to leave to determine what it was that convinced them to leave, it is a futile exercise to look at what vocal advocates of leave were suggesting and extrapolate that to mean what the electorate "meant" when it voted to leave. That's my view anyway and, as I didn't vote to leave or remain, my views on it are completely irrelevant.

Edo

In Conservative Party's case a pro EU leader is leading a eurosceptic party, and in Labour party's case a eurosceptic leader is leading a pro EU party. What an irony

Novocastrian

Yes, it does. In much the same way that sickness means anything from a cold to terminal cancer.

Almost Canadian

Not quite. It is my understanding that there were not any options as to what leave meant on the ballet paper. So the only mandate given was to become a non EU member.

If parliament is unable to agree upon what contract the UK wishes to make with the EU in the future, they may decide to hold another referendum that provides for options. Of course, if the EU says no to those options, it doesn't matter what the UK wants, it isn't going to get it.

But, from a negotiator's point of view, the hand that any UK government is going to be given by parliament means that any negotiation with the EU is going to be difficult as there is no consensus at all and, unlike the EU where differences are kept behind closed doors, the UK wishes to wash its dirty linen in public.

dave_j

Notwithstanding the arguments concerning how the referendum was or was not misrepresented on both sides, the question was put and an answer was set in stone.
There have been other referenda where the question was put and repeated until the 'right' answer was achieved.
I would hope that the UK electorate, and equally importantly their representatives in parliament, understand that a refusal to abide by the decision made will not be well received or understood by the man queuing patiently for the Clapham Omnibus. Likewise he'll not react well to the repeated attempts to pass an unpopular bill in parliament.
This continued bleeting by the remain lobby reminds me of Violet Elizabeth in Richmel Crompton's Just William stories who's favourite tantrum sob was "I'll scream and scream until I make myself sick and I can!", in fact it's well suited to become May's resignation threat.
What's left of this much dented can is running out of road, let's hope that the valuable time gained is used wisely and not wasted.

BristolUK

That's dancing around the issue

ann m

Completely agree with this. Dont like the woman at all, but it was going to be a mess any which way, and it was a poisoned chalice from the moment the votes were confirmed.
As an aside, as a Type 1 diabetic, how she has maintained the physical and mental energy to keep up the pace of these past few months without just collapsing in a knackered mess is quite astounding. Not many of us could keep up that frenetic pace.

Novocastrian

It's everyone's understanding that there were not any options as to what leave meant on the ballet paper. So yes, 3 years ago slightly more people were influence by the sunlit uplands than were by project fear, Even if you're comfortable with Cambridge Analytica etc. (which I'm not) then there are many ways to become a non EU member.

Parliament hasn't yet been given the option of coming to a consensus, although that might be productive very soon. You're right of course that the EU holds the 4 Aces, but that was patently obvious from the get-go. Duh.

Bullshit. If Parliament has the opportunity to instruct the UK Gov how to proceed, it would have necessarily already reached a consensus.