Originally Posted by geedee (Post 10741310)

Novo, I think you must have read a paper by Dr. Lucretia Borgia, not the one by Lucija Tomljenovic, PhD, which I posted because it contains 29 references at the end…. references to "backup" that many had asked for. I linked it also to support my point "that the public's trust in the "authorities" has waned significantly in the last 10 years or so".

Originally Posted by Novocastrian (Post 10741332)

Hardly something you'd expect to read in scientific paper. is it?



See above.



Skimming is never a clever plan when reading science.

Originally Posted by geedee (Post 10741334)

Novo, who said it was a scientific paper? Oh, BTW, "that the public's trust in the "authorities" has waned significantly in the last 10 years or so". I said that, not the paper.

Originally Posted by geedee (Post 10741334)

Novo, who said it was a scientific paper? Oh, BTW, "that the public's trust in the "authorities" has waned significantly in the last 10 years or so". I said that, not the paper.

Originally Posted by Novocastrian (Post 10741347)

I thought the whole point of this thread (and others) was to discuss the scientific basis of the value of vaccination?

If it's actually about failure to understand science and rational risk analysis then I'm not surprised.

It actually turns out that you didn't link to Dr. Borgia's paper, I had to find it myself. I assume you've already read it but just in case you haven't, this is from the abstract..

"The application of the Hill's criteria to these data indicates that the correlation between Al in vaccines and ASD may be causal. "

Originally Posted by Novocastrian (Post 10741349)

You did.

Originally Posted by geedee (Post 10741360)

Novo, the link I posted ( http://www.ecomed.org.uk/wp-content/...omljenovic.pdf ) works fine. The quote you mention does not appear in the paper I linked to.... you've found the wrong paper.



No. I didn't.

Originally Posted by Novocastrian (Post 10741362)

Bullshit, always go to the primary literature.

Originally Posted by geedee (Post 10733551)

Well, as I started the thread I suppose I ought to chip in too!

Firstly, there is an overwhelming amount of opinion and "research" out there, both for and against. Some even have references to back them up! You could spend years reading through it all, and still end up none the wiser. No wonder the issue is emotive, and confusing!

Secondly, as most parents, my primary and overriding responsibility is to my kids….. not "the herd" (I am after all Human, not Borg! :) ). I'm sure all parents feel the same way. If I was asked to put my children at possible risk so that other members of society could enjoy reduced risk, I'd say no. When it comes to vaccinations, as an example, the emphasis is on the individual, not "the herd". Herd immunity is based, as far as I can see, on maximising the number of people who are vaccinated so as to protect those who are not vaccinated…… or have I misread something somewhere? The bottom line is, if you're worried about catching a particular illness, then get the vaccine…. it's really that simple. If you and yours are vaccinated, you have no need to worry, right?

Thirdly, there is plenty of "information" out there that indicates certain vaccines do carry with them a risk, however small, of severe adverse reactions. Between 1989 and this year, the "vaccine court" in the US has paid out over $2.6 Billion in compensation to vaccine injured children ( fact: http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensat...csreports.html ) For me, as a simple Dad, that boils down to "Do I risk damaging my kids brain with a shot, or do I go ahead and let them catch Chicken Pox?"…… a dilemma that faces us all at one time or another.

Fourthly, I am sure that we're all agreed that the public's trust in the "authorities" has waned significantly in the last 10 years or so. Politicians and "experts" are increasingly being found out as being only interested in their own bank accounts, not the public good. As an example, in 2011 a Dr. Lucija Tomljenovic, PhD (Neural Dynamics Research Group, Dept. of Ophthalmology and Visual Sciences, University of British Columbia) requested FOI from the UK Government. Her report makes gruesome reading.

After obtaining the transcripts of the JCVI/DH meetings from the period from 1983 to 2010, the report asserts that (for those that don't want to read all 45 pages!!):

1) Instead of reacting appropriately by re-examining existing vaccination policies when safety concerns over specific vaccines were identified by their own investigations, the JCVI either a) took no action, b) skewed or selectively removed unfavourable safety data from public reports and c) made intensive efforts to reassure both the public and the authorities in the safety of respective vaccines;
2) Significantly restricted contraindication to vaccination criteria in order to increase vaccination rates despite outstanding and unresolved safety issues;
3) On multiple occasions requested from vaccine manufacturers to make specific amendments to their data sheets, when these were in conflict with JCVI’s official advices on immunisations;
4) Persistently relied on methodologically dubious studies, while dismissing independent research, to promote vaccine policies;
5) Persistently and categorically downplayed safety concerns while over-inflating vaccine benefits;
6) Promoted and elaborated a plan for introducing new vaccines of questionable efficacy and safety into the routine paediatric schedule, on the assumption that the licenses would eventually be granted;
7) Actively discouraged research on vaccine safety issues;
8) Deliberately took advantage of parents’ trust and lack of relevant knowledge on vaccinations in order to promote a scientifically unsupported immunisation program which could put certain children at risk of severe long-term neurological damage;
Notably, all of these actions appear to violate the JCVI’s own Code of Practice.

The report, which is full of references and links to the NHS website (although many of them have since been archived) is here, for those who have asked for links etc: http://www.ecomed.org.uk/wp-content/...omljenovic.pdf

That was just to back up Cyasoon!

Fifthly, as an anecdote, I was discussing the Chicken Pox vaccine with colleagues and friends recently (about 7 or so). Three of them had been given the vaccine when they were kids…. all three went on to catch Chicken Pox, one of them twice! The other two caught Chicken Pox and had Shingles when they were older…… that's an anecdote, not some fantasy from the web! That herd thingy doesn't seem to work too well sometimes!

Finally, I'll just say it's a tough call for all of us. With the lack of trustworthy information out there, all we can do is protect ourselves the best we can. That will either be getting vaccinated, and breathing easy, or making the call that the illness is less risky than the shot. Good luck, whatever you decide!:thumbup:

Originally Posted by ann m (Post 10733669)

Do we have any BE'er's from Wales, or indeed anywhere else in the UK where the issue flared up, whose kids got measles in the past month or two, or who know someone who got measles? I'd be interested in your views.

Originally Posted by siouxie (Post 10741368)

Originally Posted by geedee (Post 10741389)

Interesting article Sue, thanks. I do think this bit is rubbish though "Anti-vaxers typically see conspiracies everywhere". The article is trying to make out that people that are wary of certain vaccines are all conspiracy nuts! In general, that couldn't be further from the truth. They're usually (in my experience) concerned parents trying to make sense of all the conflicting information out there. I really wish there was an authority out there that we could trust!! Which, at the risk of boring repetition, was the point of posting a link to that paper.... it's full of quotes that really call the independence and agenda of the JCVI into question.

Originally Posted by Alan2005 (Post 10741397)

I don't think people who are anti-vaccines are necessarily conspiracy nuts. They are just naive and easily manipulated by quacks.

Originally Posted by geedee (Post 10741398)

And people who just jab anything they're told to into their bloodstream aren't?