US Police shoot man selling CDs
Jul 8th 2016, 8:09 pm
#46
Nuther day in paradise.ca
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Re: US Police shoot man selling CDs
ISIS must be pissing themselves laughing right now with the US at war with it self.
Man Opens Fire on Tennessee Highway Because He Was Upset About Incidents Involving Police, Blacks: Investigators | Video | TheBlaze.com
BRISTOL, Tenn. (TheBlaze/AP) — Authorities in Tennessee say a man who opened fire on a highway in Tennessee targeted police officers and others because he was troubled by incidents involving black people and law enforcement officers.
Man Opens Fire on Tennessee Highway Because He Was Upset About Incidents Involving Police, Blacks: Investigators | Video | TheBlaze.com
BRISTOL, Tenn. (TheBlaze/AP) — Authorities in Tennessee say a man who opened fire on a highway in Tennessee targeted police officers and others because he was troubled by incidents involving black people and law enforcement officers.
Jul 9th 2016, 1:30 am
#47
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Jul 9th 2016, 2:14 am
#48
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Re: US Police shoot man selling CDs
Since driving while black has already got a mention.....
Jul 9th 2016, 2:22 am
#49
Listen to the Music
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Fraser Valley BC
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Re: US Police shoot man selling CDs
I strongly suspect that the Louisiana cop will not be charged.
I'll play devil's advocate here.
Many cops, including some incidents in the UK, have not been charged because they claimed, truthfully or not, that they feared for their lives.
I think in the US, the defense available is broader than that in that the cop can claim just cause if he reasonably thinks that his life or that of another is in danger. In this instance, another cop is reported to have shouted 'he's got a gun'. I suspect that this shout was in response to an officer feeling the gun in the pocket of the deceased and instead of making sure that it couldn't be reached, simply yelled out. It's quite possible that the officer who fired the gun, rather than wait for explanation and in full knowledge that the man had earlier apparently threatened another with it, reacted to this shout thinking that the gun was in the hand of the deceased and as such posed a threat to life.
It's unsatisfactory because it's quite possible that a lack of sufficient training and tactical awareness allowed the situation to get out of control and escalate quite quickly and the incident developed to a point where everyone involved became so nervous that anything could have resulted in a fatal response.
Had the deceased wanted to use his gun then I think he would have attempted to do so earlier, suggesting that he had no immediate intention of doing so. However, actions by the officers will have hightened the tension with everyone involved and once this state of affairs has evolved then fear that the deceased would change his mind about the gun would have been on everone's mind and made them exceptionally fearful.
The cry 'he's got a gun' would have been the trigger (no humour intended) that led directly to the fatal shooting. The officer firing the shot will claim that it was this that led him to reasonably think that lives were in danger.
We don't have any facts relating to how the incident developed, but as Churchill once related 'Jaw jaw is better than war war', and I'm no fan of his, but perhaps that sad few US cops could learn a lot from it.
I'll play devil's advocate here.
Many cops, including some incidents in the UK, have not been charged because they claimed, truthfully or not, that they feared for their lives.
I think in the US, the defense available is broader than that in that the cop can claim just cause if he reasonably thinks that his life or that of another is in danger. In this instance, another cop is reported to have shouted 'he's got a gun'. I suspect that this shout was in response to an officer feeling the gun in the pocket of the deceased and instead of making sure that it couldn't be reached, simply yelled out. It's quite possible that the officer who fired the gun, rather than wait for explanation and in full knowledge that the man had earlier apparently threatened another with it, reacted to this shout thinking that the gun was in the hand of the deceased and as such posed a threat to life.
It's unsatisfactory because it's quite possible that a lack of sufficient training and tactical awareness allowed the situation to get out of control and escalate quite quickly and the incident developed to a point where everyone involved became so nervous that anything could have resulted in a fatal response.
Had the deceased wanted to use his gun then I think he would have attempted to do so earlier, suggesting that he had no immediate intention of doing so. However, actions by the officers will have hightened the tension with everyone involved and once this state of affairs has evolved then fear that the deceased would change his mind about the gun would have been on everone's mind and made them exceptionally fearful.
The cry 'he's got a gun' would have been the trigger (no humour intended) that led directly to the fatal shooting. The officer firing the shot will claim that it was this that led him to reasonably think that lives were in danger.
We don't have any facts relating to how the incident developed, but as Churchill once related 'Jaw jaw is better than war war', and I'm no fan of his, but perhaps that sad few US cops could learn a lot from it.
Jul 9th 2016, 9:05 am
#51
Crazy Cat Lady
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 65,493
Re: US Police shoot man selling CDs
I missed the video showing the guy trying to shoot the cop. The gun was in a pocket. Four or five bullets at extremely close range in the chest is just not right in any version of the event.
Jul 9th 2016, 10:05 am
#52
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Re: US Police shoot man selling CDs
More white people live in the US than black so that last statistic is misleading. From your link:
"Police killed almost five black people per every million black residents of the U.S., compared with about 2 per million for both white and hispanic victims"
"If this man, who was fighting with the police, resisting arrest, and who had just threatened someone else with a firearm, was able to access this gun, it is reasonable to think he would have used it, deadly force is then authorized."
Reasonably so. However, since he was laying on the ground with two fat men on top of him it seems unlikely to me that he could have reached into his pocket, pulled out a gun and shot them. I think they killed him because it was convenient to do that rather than struggle with handcuffs and putting him in the car and all that bother. His black life didn't matter to them.
"Police killed almost five black people per every million black residents of the U.S., compared with about 2 per million for both white and hispanic victims"
"If this man, who was fighting with the police, resisting arrest, and who had just threatened someone else with a firearm, was able to access this gun, it is reasonable to think he would have used it, deadly force is then authorized."
Reasonably so. However, since he was laying on the ground with two fat men on top of him it seems unlikely to me that he could have reached into his pocket, pulled out a gun and shot them. I think they killed him because it was convenient to do that rather than struggle with handcuffs and putting him in the car and all that bother. His black life didn't matter to them.
The link is not misleading, the interpretation at times is, that more black people are shot than white people, they are not, the figures speak for themselves. Add the words proportionately according to the population, and then absolutely they are, this is an important distinction. As is the appalling fact, quite rightly pointed out, that black people, in proportion, are stopped and prosecuted for an inordinate amount of minor traffic violations compared to other minorities, as was the case with Philando Castile in Minnesota. This incident truly is shocking and appears to be a gross overreaction.
It may well be the case that the officers concerned used force inappropriately because of race, this is yet to be proven though. As for him not being able to access a gun because someone is lying on top of him, you may be surprised how much weight and force is needed to subdue even the most slightly built person when they are seriously motivated to resist.
To be clear, I am not, not, arbitrarily defending the actions of these officers, I just take issue with them being hung out to dry automatically without full examination of ALL the facts.
Jul 9th 2016, 10:16 am
#54
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Re: US Police shoot man selling CDs
I wasn't there and have no idea what went down before hand, whether you're correct or not, nor do I know what was going through the police officers heads at the time. However when someone is already pinned to the ground(having already been tazered/stunned) by two large officers with no way of getting to his gun I cannot imagine a scenario where four bullets at very very close range are necessary.
I have no idea either as I was not there, this is what is important. If you have been in this situation you may, may have some idea, otherwise it really is all supposition and guesswork. Worryingly most of this is based on TV and film, which is about as far from reality as you can get. I don't mean to patronize, I actually do have to point this out to people.
Firing more than once is not uncommon, link below, this is due to training: firing until the threat is stopped.
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-police-...-times-at-once
And as for no way of getting to his gun, I could not see his hands in the video so it would be impossible for anyone to say this was the case, other than eye witnesses.
Jul 9th 2016, 10:27 am
#55
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Re: US Police shoot man selling CDs
It's always good to read your comments, Rae - welcome back.
In this case, though, I fear your bias is showing. If somebody had been "reportedly" threatening another person with a firearm, wouldn't some rudimentary investigation of that report be a good place to start? Why was the guy "challenged" at all? Why not talk to him? Why not attempt to have a conversation with the guy, instead of all this stuff about challlenges, tasers, takedowns and then shooting the guy in the chest? Your own language is very indicative of your interpretation of these events, which don't seem to be on a par with many other people's.
From the two videos that have been circulated online, I am not at all sure you're talking about the same incident when you talk about "fighting with the police, resisting arrest," etc. As dbd says, two fat men sat on him, one of whom then shot him. All the while it appears he might have had a pistol in his pocket. If only we were living in a world where smutty euphemisms were for real, and he really had just been happy to see them
And how in the name of your chosen deity does any self-respecting police chief expect anybody to believe that two officers involved in this incident both had unfortunate accidents such that their body cameras fell off just prior to this chain of events? That, frankly, beggars belief.
In this case, though, I fear your bias is showing. If somebody had been "reportedly" threatening another person with a firearm, wouldn't some rudimentary investigation of that report be a good place to start? Why was the guy "challenged" at all? Why not talk to him? Why not attempt to have a conversation with the guy, instead of all this stuff about challlenges, tasers, takedowns and then shooting the guy in the chest? Your own language is very indicative of your interpretation of these events, which don't seem to be on a par with many other people's.
From the two videos that have been circulated online, I am not at all sure you're talking about the same incident when you talk about "fighting with the police, resisting arrest," etc. As dbd says, two fat men sat on him, one of whom then shot him. All the while it appears he might have had a pistol in his pocket. If only we were living in a world where smutty euphemisms were for real, and he really had just been happy to see them
And how in the name of your chosen deity does any self-respecting police chief expect anybody to believe that two officers involved in this incident both had unfortunate accidents such that their body cameras fell off just prior to this chain of events? That, frankly, beggars belief.
Hi, thank you, I like your comments and DBD's and the different perspective you both have, whether I agree.....
I don't have a bias, I really don't. Actually I do, I am biased toward an open, transparent and accurate investigation and depiction of events. If I have a bias it would be against the officers, mainly because I see so many automatic defences on police forums its embarrassing. They are no more automatically innocent than they are guilty.
I agree that an opening conversation would have been a good idea, but this is where our training as UK police, as Ann points out, and that of the US differ unfortunately. Plus we have no idea whether this did take place before the video starts. As for my language, this is simply a description in police terminology of what happened. If it is not on a par with others maybe this is simply because they are jumping on the bandwagon to court popularity. Happens a lot on here.
Simply speaking, especially in the US, if you are not complying, immediately and absolutely, you are resisting. Like it or not that's how it is there. And lets not forget this was a big guy too, two people on him, that's really not much.
As for the cameras falling off, yes I agree that is troubling to say the least. The police do themselves no favours when this sort of thing happens. But, it is possible I suppose. I know I have had protracted encounters with people, rolling around the floor, and afterwards I look like Mrs. Rae has had a go at me after half a bottle of red. What I would say is they must have been recording prior to falling off so where is that evidence?
Jul 9th 2016, 11:31 am
#56
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Re: US Police shoot man selling CDs
Given what happened - being shot a few times at close range while being held down - it sounded a really understated, bland description of something anything but.
Jul 9th 2016, 9:02 pm
#57
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Re: US Police shoot man selling CDs
Ah I see what u mean. Sorry just military brainwashing I'm afraid. It does sound cold I agree. Not meant that way.
Jul 9th 2016, 9:50 pm
#58
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Jul 12th 2016, 11:47 pm
#60
Nuther day in paradise.ca
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Re: US Police shoot man selling CDs
Anyone notice something about the 3 guys arrested for shooting cops in Baton Rouge? Look closely !! They are all, erm, yes, I am guna say it, they are "Young"