Trump Trump Trump
#796
Re: Trump Trump Trump
I think I heard that four deaths were suicide ? If that's true I wonder why ? One police died from a heart attack after bear spray (I think).
#797
limey party pooper
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 9,979
Re: Trump Trump Trump
Oh and the weapons, read this.
President Donald Trump claimed on Fox News that there were no guns in the insurrection at the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021. Court records and news reports show that many insurrectionists were armed, and several were charged with having firearms on Capitol grounds or stashed nearby. https://www.statesman.com/story/news...ow/7963993002/
Last edited by bats; Jan 10th 2022 at 10:07 pm.
#798
limey party pooper
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 9,979
#799
Re: Trump Trump Trump
I see that you accept that some of his supporters thought he wanted them to act, I am not understanding why it need one persons authorization for it to be an attempt to overthrow the legitimate election process for the President. If those involved were trying to get the votes thrown out then isnt that enough for it to be such an attempt. I am not following why it would require Trumps authority.
I would like to know what you thought Trump's meaning was when he was demanding that Pence act to throw the votes out, an action that he does not have the ability to do, in law in the circumstances that existed. Or what you think Trump's meaning was when he recently said that Pence made a tragic mistake in certifying the election (I am assuming that none of us here think that Trump actually believes the election was fraudulent). Or what he means when he says of Pence "You can be a patriot or you can be a pussy" on his role on Jan 6th.
I would like to know what you thought Trump's meaning was when he was demanding that Pence act to throw the votes out, an action that he does not have the ability to do, in law in the circumstances that existed. Or what you think Trump's meaning was when he recently said that Pence made a tragic mistake in certifying the election (I am assuming that none of us here think that Trump actually believes the election was fraudulent). Or what he means when he says of Pence "You can be a patriot or you can be a pussy" on his role on Jan 6th.
I have no idea what the VP's powers were to stop the process on that particular day. Nor, it appears, did Trump.
#800
Re: Trump Trump Trump
I believe that 4 deaths, sometime after the event, were suicide. On the day, I believe one person was shot (by police), one died as a result of drugs they took, and the other 3, as you have stated, died of natural causes and the effects of bear spray.
#801
Re: Trump Trump Trump
You said you'd expect more injuries. So hiw many injuries were there and how many would you expect in an attempt to over throw a government? This was your premise and I'm asking you to clarify, how did you come to this conclusion?
Oh and the weapons, read this.
President Donald Trump claimed on Fox News that there were no guns in the insurrection at the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021. Court records and news reports show that many insurrectionists were armed, and several were charged with having firearms on Capitol grounds or stashed nearby. https://www.statesman.com/story/news...ow/7963993002/
Oh and the weapons, read this.
President Donald Trump claimed on Fox News that there were no guns in the insurrection at the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021. Court records and news reports show that many insurrectionists were armed, and several were charged with having firearms on Capitol grounds or stashed nearby. https://www.statesman.com/story/news...ow/7963993002/
It is not the case that, for example, had 10 people been shot, my position would remain the same but, had 11 people been shot, IMO, it would have been an attempt to overthrow.
I have first hand experience of insurrections (actually on the ground when they are going on) as a result of those experiences, I don't believe that this was an attempt to overthrow the government. Why can't you just leave it at that?
Last edited by Almost Canadian; Jan 10th 2022 at 11:04 pm.
#802
limey party pooper
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 9,979
Re: Trump Trump Trumap
FFS, I don't believe that it was an attempt to overthrow the government for the reasons I first referred to, looking at the totality of what happened. In the land where lots of people have firearms, I would think, and I fully appreciate that you may disagree, that if an attempt to overthrow the government was really planned, there would have been far more people with firearms, those people would have used those firearms and lots people would have been fatally injured as a result.
It is not the case that, for example, had 10 people been shot, my position would remain the same but, had 11 people been shot, IMO, it would have been an attempt to overthrow.
I have first hand experience of insurrections (actually on the ground when they are going on) as a result of those experiences, I don't believe that this was an attempt to overthrow the government. Why can't you just leave it at that?
It is not the case that, for example, had 10 people been shot, my position would remain the same but, had 11 people been shot, IMO, it would have been an attempt to overthrow.
I have first hand experience of insurrections (actually on the ground when they are going on) as a result of those experiences, I don't believe that this was an attempt to overthrow the government. Why can't you just leave it at that?
#803
Re: Trump Trump Trump
You have by stating several times, that you don't think it was an attempt at government change, and linking that with a belief that Trump didn't want to instigate it, while acknowledging that others did want that change.
Others do know those powers, Pence included, Trump included, as we are told that Trump was informed.
Trump wanted him to do, what he could not do legally. How is that not what you claim it not to be?
What makes you think Trump didn't know the powers Pence had. And what do you make of Trump's comments on Pence from my previous post?
Trump wanted him to do, what he could not do legally. How is that not what you claim it not to be?
What makes you think Trump didn't know the powers Pence had. And what do you make of Trump's comments on Pence from my previous post?
Last edited by kimilseung; Jan 10th 2022 at 11:57 pm.
#804
Re: Trump Trump Trump
FFS, I don't believe that it was an attempt to overthrow the government for the reasons I first referred to, looking at the totality of what happened. In the land where lots of people have firearms, I would think, and I fully appreciate that you may disagree, that if an attempt to overthrow the government was really planned, there would have been far more people with firearms, those people would have used those firearms and lots people would have been fatally injured as a result.
It is not the case that, for example, had 10 people been shot, my position would remain the same but, had 11 people been shot, IMO, it would have been an attempt to overthrow.
I have first hand experience of insurrections (actually on the ground when they are going on) as a result of those experiences, I don't believe that this was an attempt to overthrow the government. Why can't you just leave it at that?
It is not the case that, for example, had 10 people been shot, my position would remain the same but, had 11 people been shot, IMO, it would have been an attempt to overthrow.
I have first hand experience of insurrections (actually on the ground when they are going on) as a result of those experiences, I don't believe that this was an attempt to overthrow the government. Why can't you just leave it at that?
#805
Re: Trump Trump Trump
You have by stating several times, that you don't think it was an attempt at government change, and linking that with a belief that Trump didn't want to instigate it, while acknowledging that others did want that change.
Others do know those powers, Pence included, Trump included, as we are told that Trump was informed.
Trump wanted him to do, what he could not do legally. How is that not what you claim it not to be?
What makes you think Trump didn't know the powers Pence had. And what do you make of Trump's comments on Pence from my previous post?
Others do know those powers, Pence included, Trump included, as we are told that Trump was informed.
Trump wanted him to do, what he could not do legally. How is that not what you claim it not to be?
What makes you think Trump didn't know the powers Pence had. And what do you make of Trump's comments on Pence from my previous post?
I don't believe that the storming of the Capitol was an attempt to "overthrow the government." Firstly, because the actions taken did not, in my opinion, come anywhere close to that objective. Secondly, because the government at the time was "Trump"s". Had the argument been that the actions were intended to delay the process that would have lead to Biden acquiring the presidency, I would agree with such an opinion. One would think that, had such an objective been achieved, the process would have proceeded in time for Biden's inauguration to occur on the day scheduled.
I don't agree with the theory that Trump incited the storming of the Capitol, based upon the evidence put forward to date. One assumes that the authorities agree with me, otherwise he would be facing criminal charges at this time.
I have no idea what those that stormed the Capitol wanted to achieve and, again, if you want to know that, you will have to question each and every one of them. I made reference to the fact that some of them "..may have believed..." as, unlike certain posters, I accept that I am not able to state with certainly, one way or the other, what their beliefs actually were.
I have no personal knowledge of Trump's knowledge of procedure and you will have to ask Trump about what he expected Pence to do.
#806
Re: Trump Trump Trump
Are you not confusing "failed attempt" with "successful attempt" ? There seems to be some evidence that a mob, at Trump's behest, attempted to seize power. Perhaps some of the protestors did not have that intent, and simply found themselves in the Capitol as a result of mob dynamics, but others most certainly did have insurrection in their mind and heart. The US justice system is now trying those folk and delivering guilty verdicts.
I accept that the US justice system has tried, and will continue to try, some of them. I have no idea as to whether those charges relate(d) to assault/criminal damage/burglary (from an English perspective as I have no idea what the US equivalent is) but I believe that no such charges have been levelled against Trump. Above, I stated that it will be interesting to see what happens once the current investigation finishes and what evidence is turned up. Time will tell.
I do note that you have not been able to show what precise parts of Trump's speech caused you to come to your own conclusion. Is there any particular reason for that?
#807
Re: Trump Trump Trump
I don't think that holds. I see the current position as being that the investigators are trying to get to the bottom of the matter while the Trumpists pursue measures intended to delay any resolution until after the mid-terms. At that point they hope to have enough power to cancel the investigation. Trump has a long history of evading responsibility through legal manouevre and may well achieve that this time.
#808
Re: Trump Trump Trump
Don't argue with an idiot - they will drag you down to their level and will beat you with experience!
(he thinks it's just me )
#809
Re: Trump Trump Trump
I don't think that holds. I see the current position as being that the investigators are trying to get to the bottom of the matter while the Trumpists pursue measures intended to delay any resolution until after the mid-terms. At that point they hope to have enough power to cancel the investigation. Trump has a long history of evading responsibility through legal manouevre and may well achieve that this time.
I agree that Trumpists will do all that they can to delay the obtaining of evidence that is in their possession. There is also an argument that some will ensure that this issue is deliberately dragged out until the mid-terms, in the hope that, by doing so, the Republicans' prospects of being elected in those mid-terms are reduced.
Whatever side of the political fence one is on, I think that we can all agree that the US Capitol does not operate in a way that it was intended to - for the benefit of the residents of the US.
#810
Re: Trump Trump Trump
Yes!