Trump Trump Trump

Old Jan 10th 2022, 7:14 pm
  #796  
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

Originally Posted by Danny B
They were just letting off some steam and getting in some cardio
(Actually, weren't three of the deaths linked to heart attacks & strokes by over exuberant Trump supporters?)
Yeah, Trump was just joshin'.

I think I heard that four deaths were suicide ? If that's true I wonder why ? One police died from a heart attack after bear spray (I think).
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Old Jan 10th 2022, 9:43 pm
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
"Sufficient amount of injuries for what?" Where have I ever stated that there would be a "sufficient amount of injuries"?
You said you'd expect more injuries. So hiw many injuries were there and how many would you expect in an attempt to over throw a government? This was your premise and I'm asking you to clarify, how did you come to this conclusion?

Oh and the weapons, read this.
President Donald Trump claimed on Fox News that there were no guns in the insurrection at the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021. Court records and news reports show that many insurrectionists were armed, and several were charged with having firearms on Capitol grounds or stashed nearby. https://www.statesman.com/story/news...ow/7963993002/


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Old Jan 10th 2022, 9:51 pm
  #798  
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

Originally Posted by Shard
Yeah, Trump was just joshin'.

I think I heard that four deaths were suicide ? If that's true I wonder why ? One police died from a heart attack after bear spray (I think).
at a guess PTSD.
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Old Jan 10th 2022, 10:50 pm
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

Originally Posted by kimilseung
I see that you accept that some of his supporters thought he wanted them to act, I am not understanding why it need one persons authorization for it to be an attempt to overthrow the legitimate election process for the President. If those involved were trying to get the votes thrown out then isnt that enough for it to be such an attempt. I am not following why it would require Trumps authority.

I would like to know what you thought Trump's meaning was when he was demanding that Pence act to throw the votes out, an action that he does not have the ability to do, in law in the circumstances that existed. Or what you think Trump's meaning was when he recently said that Pence made a tragic mistake in certifying the election (I am assuming that none of us here think that Trump actually believes the election was fraudulent). Or what he means when he says of Pence "You can be a patriot or you can be a pussy" on his role on Jan 6th.
I didn't mention Trump's authority.

I have no idea what the VP's powers were to stop the process on that particular day. Nor, it appears, did Trump.
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Old Jan 10th 2022, 10:53 pm
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

Originally Posted by Shard
Yeah, Trump was just joshin'.

I think I heard that four deaths were suicide ? If that's true I wonder why ? One police died from a heart attack after bear spray (I think).
I believe that 4 deaths, sometime after the event, were suicide. On the day, I believe one person was shot (by police), one died as a result of drugs they took, and the other 3, as you have stated, died of natural causes and the effects of bear spray.
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Old Jan 10th 2022, 11:00 pm
  #801  
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

Originally Posted by bats
You said you'd expect more injuries. So hiw many injuries were there and how many would you expect in an attempt to over throw a government? This was your premise and I'm asking you to clarify, how did you come to this conclusion?

Oh and the weapons, read this.
President Donald Trump claimed on Fox News that there were no guns in the insurrection at the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021. Court records and news reports show that many insurrectionists were armed, and several were charged with having firearms on Capitol grounds or stashed nearby. https://www.statesman.com/story/news...ow/7963993002/
FFS, I don't believe that it was an attempt to overthrow the government for the reasons I first referred to, looking at the totality of what happened. In the land where lots of people have firearms, I would think, and I fully appreciate that you may disagree, that if an attempt to overthrow the government was really planned, there would have been far more people with firearms, those people would have used those firearms and lots people would have been fatally injured as a result.

It is not the case that, for example, had 10 people been shot, my position would remain the same but, had 11 people been shot, IMO, it would have been an attempt to overthrow.

I have first hand experience of insurrections (actually on the ground when they are going on) as a result of those experiences, I don't believe that this was an attempt to overthrow the government. Why can't you just leave it at that?

Last edited by Almost Canadian; Jan 10th 2022 at 11:04 pm.
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Old Jan 10th 2022, 11:21 pm
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trumap

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
FFS, I don't believe that it was an attempt to overthrow the government for the reasons I first referred to, looking at the totality of what happened. In the land where lots of people have firearms, I would think, and I fully appreciate that you may disagree, that if an attempt to overthrow the government was really planned, there would have been far more people with firearms, those people would have used those firearms and lots people would have been fatally injured as a result.

It is not the case that, for example, had 10 people been shot, my position would remain the same but, had 11 people been shot, IMO, it would have been an attempt to overthrow.

I have first hand experience of insurrections (actually on the ground when they are going on) as a result of those experiences, I don't believe that this was an attempt to overthrow the government. Why can't you just leave it at that?
Because you didn't explain yourself very clearly.
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Old Jan 10th 2022, 11:28 pm
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
I didn't mention Trump's authority.
You have by stating several times, that you don't think it was an attempt at government change, and linking that with a belief that Trump didn't want to instigate it, while acknowledging that others did want that change.

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
I have no idea what the VP's powers were to stop the process on that particular day. Nor, it appears, did Trump.
Others do know those powers, Pence included, Trump included, as we are told that Trump was informed.
Trump wanted him to do, what he could not do legally. How is that not what you claim it not to be?
What makes you think Trump didn't know the powers Pence had. And what do you make of Trump's comments on Pence from my previous post?

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Old Jan 11th 2022, 3:34 am
  #804  
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
FFS, I don't believe that it was an attempt to overthrow the government for the reasons I first referred to, looking at the totality of what happened. In the land where lots of people have firearms, I would think, and I fully appreciate that you may disagree, that if an attempt to overthrow the government was really planned, there would have been far more people with firearms, those people would have used those firearms and lots people would have been fatally injured as a result.

It is not the case that, for example, had 10 people been shot, my position would remain the same but, had 11 people been shot, IMO, it would have been an attempt to overthrow.

I have first hand experience of insurrections (actually on the ground when they are going on) as a result of those experiences, I don't believe that this was an attempt to overthrow the government. Why can't you just leave it at that?
Are you not confusing "failed attempt" with "successful attempt" ? There seems to be some evidence that a mob, at Trump's behest, attempted to seize power. Perhaps some of the protestors did not have that intent, and simply found themselves in the Capitol as a result of mob dynamics, but others most certainly did have insurrection in their mind and heart. The US justice system is now trying those folk and delivering guilty verdicts.
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Old Jan 11th 2022, 12:52 pm
  #805  
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

Originally Posted by kimilseung
You have by stating several times, that you don't think it was an attempt at government change, and linking that with a belief that Trump didn't want to instigate it, while acknowledging that others did want that change.


Others do know those powers, Pence included, Trump included, as we are told that Trump was informed.
Trump wanted him to do, what he could not do legally. How is that not what you claim it not to be?
What makes you think Trump didn't know the powers Pence had. And what do you make of Trump's comments on Pence from my previous post?
OK. It appears that I need to make my position clear:

I don't believe that the storming of the Capitol was an attempt to "overthrow the government." Firstly, because the actions taken did not, in my opinion, come anywhere close to that objective. Secondly, because the government at the time was "Trump"s". Had the argument been that the actions were intended to delay the process that would have lead to Biden acquiring the presidency, I would agree with such an opinion. One would think that, had such an objective been achieved, the process would have proceeded in time for Biden's inauguration to occur on the day scheduled.

I don't agree with the theory that Trump incited the storming of the Capitol, based upon the evidence put forward to date. One assumes that the authorities agree with me, otherwise he would be facing criminal charges at this time.

I have no idea what those that stormed the Capitol wanted to achieve and, again, if you want to know that, you will have to question each and every one of them. I made reference to the fact that some of them "..may have believed..." as, unlike certain posters, I accept that I am not able to state with certainly, one way or the other, what their beliefs actually were.

I have no personal knowledge of Trump's knowledge of procedure and you will have to ask Trump about what he expected Pence to do.
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Old Jan 11th 2022, 1:00 pm
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

Originally Posted by Shard
Are you not confusing "failed attempt" with "successful attempt" ? There seems to be some evidence that a mob, at Trump's behest, attempted to seize power. Perhaps some of the protestors did not have that intent, and simply found themselves in the Capitol as a result of mob dynamics, but others most certainly did have insurrection in their mind and heart. The US justice system is now trying those folk and delivering guilty verdicts.
I will agree that people stormed the Capitol. For what reason only they can explain as, unlike some posters, I don't intend to speak for them.

I accept that the US justice system has tried, and will continue to try, some of them. I have no idea as to whether those charges relate(d) to assault/criminal damage/burglary (from an English perspective as I have no idea what the US equivalent is) but I believe that no such charges have been levelled against Trump. Above, I stated that it will be interesting to see what happens once the current investigation finishes and what evidence is turned up. Time will tell.

I do note that you have not been able to show what precise parts of Trump's speech caused you to come to your own conclusion. Is there any particular reason for that?
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Old Jan 11th 2022, 1:12 pm
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian

I don't agree with the theory that Trump incited the storming of the Capitol, based upon the evidence put forward to date. One assumes that the authorities agree with me, otherwise he would be facing criminal charges at this time.
I don't think that holds. I see the current position as being that the investigators are trying to get to the bottom of the matter while the Trumpists pursue measures intended to delay any resolution until after the mid-terms. At that point they hope to have enough power to cancel the investigation. Trump has a long history of evading responsibility through legal manouevre and may well achieve that this time.
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Old Jan 11th 2022, 1:25 pm
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

Don't argue with an idiot - they will drag you down to their level and will beat you with experience!
Nice to see so many "idiots"

(he thinks it's just me )
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Old Jan 11th 2022, 2:09 pm
  #809  
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

Originally Posted by dbd33
I don't think that holds. I see the current position as being that the investigators are trying to get to the bottom of the matter while the Trumpists pursue measures intended to delay any resolution until after the mid-terms. At that point they hope to have enough power to cancel the investigation. Trump has a long history of evading responsibility through legal manouevre and may well achieve that this time.
I would suggest that the authorities do not have enough evidence to charge Trump at this time, or they would have done so.

I agree that Trumpists will do all that they can to delay the obtaining of evidence that is in their possession. There is also an argument that some will ensure that this issue is deliberately dragged out until the mid-terms, in the hope that, by doing so, the Republicans' prospects of being elected in those mid-terms are reduced.

Whatever side of the political fence one is on, I think that we can all agree that the US Capitol does not operate in a way that it was intended to - for the benefit of the residents of the US.
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Old Jan 11th 2022, 2:27 pm
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Default Re: Trump Trump Trump

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
I would suggest that the authorities do not have enough evidence to charge Trump at this time, or they would have done so.
Agreed. The type of conspiracy case that might apply to Trump, either over the Capitol, or over his finances, is difficult to build and often depends on flipping a co-conspirator. He die before any such case comes to court.

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
I

Whatever side of the political fence one is on, I think that we can all agree that the US Capitol does not operate in a way that it was intended to - for the benefit of the residents of the US.
Yes!
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