Thank you Canadians.

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Dec 21st 2011, 9:35 pm

#16

Novocastrian

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Re: Thank you Canadians.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan2005

Pulling out of Kyoto did damage Canada's reputation. The international press coverage was generally negative and I expect a few diplomats will have expressed their disappointment.

There will be no tangible consequences to this though; disappointment isn't going to translate into action.

It did last time, see previous link.

This time I'd fully expect the EU to categorize oil sand product as "dirty oil" and penalize all European companies for buying it.

Dec 21st 2011, 9:40 pm

#17

Alan2005

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Re: Thank you Canadians.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Novocastrian

It did last time, see previous link.

This time I'd fully expect the EU to categorize oil sand product as "dirty oil" and penalize all European companies for buying it.

How much Canadian oil does the EU use (genuine question - I don't actually know)? If the US did that then there really would be a big impact.

I have to confess that I don't really understand the oil sands; they just seem to be there to convert a relatively clean energy source into a dirty one and mess the place up in the process.

Dec 21st 2011, 9:42 pm

#18

Lord Vader

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Re: Thank you Canadians.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Editha

Lord Vader said:

What odds are you giving? Current measures put in place will only achieve 25% of the target reduction (see here)

I'll give you huge odds.

Dec 21st 2011, 9:43 pm

#19

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Re: Thank you Canadians.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Novocastrian

Pretty much everybody. I know you'd prefer to forget / ignore this, but ....

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1753222/

...and that was after Canada's atrocious behaviour in Copenhagen. You can add
Durban and the contemptuous withdrawal from the Kyoto Treaty to the list.

(Not to mention the Oil Sands).

Why would people hate the Oil sands as opposed to Middle East Oil or North Sea Oil? propaganda no? Whenever someone wants to pull sway to their dirty oil sands cause, why do they always show a mine?

Last edited by Lord Vader; Dec 21st 2011 at 9:47 pm.

Dec 21st 2011, 9:46 pm

#20

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Re: Thank you Canadians.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan2005

How much Canadian oil does the EU use (genuine question - I don't actually know)? If the US did that then there really would be a big impact.

If the EU does it, the pressure in the US (already strong) to do the same, would be greatly increased. Agreed, the outcome depends on next Novembers election.

Quote:

I have to confess that I don't really understand the oil sands; they just seem to be there to convert a relatively clean energy source into a dirty one and mess the place up in the process.

Nicely put. I may have mentioned EROEI before?

Dec 21st 2011, 9:46 pm

#21

Alan2005

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Re: Thank you Canadians.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Vader

Why would people hate the Oil sands as opposed to Middle East Oil or North Sea Oil? propaganda no?

Because of the EROEI and the environmental impact of getting said oil. The Saudi's just have to stick a pipe in the sand and out it comes.

Dec 21st 2011, 9:48 pm

#22

Alan2005

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Re: Thank you Canadians.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Novocastrian

Nicely put. I may have mentioned EROEI before?

Yeah. I thought the oil sands were close(ish) to 1:1 - but I'm not sure of the actual number. I guess I could google it...

Dec 21st 2011, 9:51 pm

#23

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Re: Thank you Canadians.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Vader

Why would people hate the Oil sands as opposed to Middle East Oil or North Sea Oil? propaganda no? Whenever someone wants to pull sawy with the oil sands why do they always show a mine?

Because when you look at the energy accounting for the whole process, it's a rubbish resource. Much more money and other benefits could be achieved by investing in renewables and conservation instead.

Everybody knows this but the present Canadian (and one or three provincial governments) are in thrall to (mostly foreign) oil companies. "In thrall" is putting it kindly, "have been bought by" is nearer the mark.

Dec 21st 2011, 9:55 pm

#24

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Re: Thank you Canadians.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan2005

Yeah. I thought the oil sands were close(ish) to 1:1 - but I'm not sure of the actual number. I guess I could google it...

Google (and better sources) will confirm that you're about right. It's most likely nearer 1.5, but even that doesn't include the costs of water remediation, air pollution, negative population health outcomes, ecological disruption etc.

Dec 21st 2011, 9:56 pm

#25

Alan2005

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Re: Thank you Canadians.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Novocastrian

Yeah, the internet says somewhere in the range of 1.5 and 5 depending on how you measure it.

(Edit: The oil drum is where I looked
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3839

And this table:
http://www.theoildrum.com/files/Tas_...EROI-Table.PNG)

Last edited by Alan2005; Dec 21st 2011 at 9:59 pm.

Dec 21st 2011, 10:08 pm

#26

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Re: Thank you Canadians.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan2005

Good googling. It's a tricky calculation (well, it's not but there are uncertainties on the input side). The EU have accepted a very modest figure that oil sand utilization produces 22% more CO2/energy output unit than conventional. I think that's low but its enough anyway to have them classify it as "dirty".

Dec 21st 2011, 11:20 pm

#27

CanadaJimmy

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Re: Thank you Canadians.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Novocastrian

The Canada Pension Plan will be privatized. (not quite yet, but the seeds are sown).

I heard something about them selling the Pension plan to banks but I was unable to find any articles, if anyone has anything on this I'd be really interested to read it.

Dec 22nd 2011, 1:23 am

#28

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Re: Thank you Canadians.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CanadaJimmy

I heard something about them selling the Pension plan to banks but I was unable to find any articles, if anyone has anything on this I'd be really interested to read it.

Not quite that. But this...

http://www.fin.gc.ca/n11/11-134-eng.asp

This is Flaherty's very own propaganda site, but you'll get the drift.

Dec 22nd 2011, 2:14 am

#29

Lord Vader

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Re: Thank you Canadians.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan2005

Because of the EROEI and the environmental impact of getting said oil. The Saudi's just have to stick a pipe in the sand and out it comes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Novocastrian

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan2005

Your link, (which I was going to post btw) also states that it is viable. It is also extremely likely that the EROI will improve as production increases and more recent extraction methods are used.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Novocastrian

Not quite that. But this...

http://www.fin.gc.ca/n11/11-134-eng.asp

This is Flaherty's very own propaganda site, but you'll get the drift.

So what do you see wrong with this Novo?