Spare a thought for these families.
#273
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Somewhere between Vancouver & St Johns
Posts: 19,846
Re: Spare a thought for these families.
No and thats a whole other debate.
Those who were convicted like the Steven Truscotts and David Milgards of this world received justice and also compensation. Others havent.
Whats is justice anyway and by whos definition?
Spending 10 years in Prison for being wrongfully convicted then being found not guilty some would call justice. The conviction was overturned is justice.
Those who were convicted like the Steven Truscotts and David Milgards of this world received justice and also compensation. Others havent.
Whats is justice anyway and by whos definition?
Spending 10 years in Prison for being wrongfully convicted then being found not guilty some would call justice. The conviction was overturned is justice.
#274
Banned
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,088
Re: Spare a thought for these families.
I think this post eloquently makes the case that people can be in the police force too long. The idea that a trial is about the quality of argument presented by the police, with the accussed being peripheral, isn't one that would be advanced by anyone but a long term police officer. At some point experience should could count against police officers, their increased knowledge of criminal investigation is offset by their narrowing focus.
Have criminal trials become interminable games, in which the trial
of the accused is regularly overshadowed by the trial of the
investigation?....The Honourable Justice Michael J. Moldaver
Court of Appeal for Ontario
#275
limey party pooper
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 9,982
Re: Spare a thought for these families.
I tend to think the vast majority of coppers all over the world today will put on their uniform and see the gun as a tool and part of the uniform. They accept it is there and dont discuss if they will think they will have to use it today.
It is there for their own protection and the protection of others whom they have a duty to protect.
They will go about their day to day duties and look forward to going home to their families at the end of the shift.
The force they have joined dictates if they will carry a gun that day. All officers are professionaly trained by professionals. There is no cowboy shit taught on any course I have attended.
You cannot predict how an officer will react or if they change into some wannabe gun slinger. That is a decision the individual makes as they are certainly NOT taught that.
Every job has its good and bad apples and unfortunately the Police have theirs.
Because society has changed and become IMHO more violent removing guns from a police officer especially any North American force will prove almost impossible.
You can train an individual to the highest standards possible but there is no guarantee that the individual will always follow those procedures.
Shit happens sometimes in an instant moment and the officer has to make a split second decision.
Armed police forces are here to stay we can only hope the individuals who join their forces are professional and do their job.
I have no qualms in defending their actions when legally justified regardless of what others might think but I have no problem in attaching blame when they clearly go outside the rules.
Those who have never done the job really dont appreciate how hard of a job it can be at times and there are shit sides as well as rewarding aspects to the job. Yes you can have opinions but its not always black and white.
We can sit on our keyboards and post what we think blah blah but until you have done the job and faced certain situations then sometimes you have no idea what its like.
As you go about your daily mundane job today in whatever it is you do just remember some copper is likely informing a family that a loved one has been lost due to a fatal motor vehicle accident or something else.
Is that something you would like to do on a daily, weekly, monthly basis.
It is there for their own protection and the protection of others whom they have a duty to protect.
They will go about their day to day duties and look forward to going home to their families at the end of the shift.
The force they have joined dictates if they will carry a gun that day. All officers are professionaly trained by professionals. There is no cowboy shit taught on any course I have attended.
You cannot predict how an officer will react or if they change into some wannabe gun slinger. That is a decision the individual makes as they are certainly NOT taught that.
Every job has its good and bad apples and unfortunately the Police have theirs.
Because society has changed and become IMHO more violent removing guns from a police officer especially any North American force will prove almost impossible.
You can train an individual to the highest standards possible but there is no guarantee that the individual will always follow those procedures.
Shit happens sometimes in an instant moment and the officer has to make a split second decision.
Armed police forces are here to stay we can only hope the individuals who join their forces are professional and do their job.
I have no qualms in defending their actions when legally justified regardless of what others might think but I have no problem in attaching blame when they clearly go outside the rules.
Those who have never done the job really dont appreciate how hard of a job it can be at times and there are shit sides as well as rewarding aspects to the job. Yes you can have opinions but its not always black and white.
We can sit on our keyboards and post what we think blah blah but until you have done the job and faced certain situations then sometimes you have no idea what its like.
As you go about your daily mundane job today in whatever it is you do just remember some copper is likely informing a family that a loved one has been lost due to a fatal motor vehicle accident or something else.
Is that something you would like to do on a daily, weekly, monthly basis.
There are other jobs where workers face occasional violence. Should they be armed too??
#276
Binned by Muderators
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: White Rock BC
Posts: 11,682
Re: Spare a thought for these families.
I've done jury duty. I sat on five different trials and every time we were told to only consider facts. The fact that you had real power over the direction of somebodies life meant that everyone took it very seriously and took a lot of care to leave emotion out of it. Maybe that's not typical, but I was actually quite impressed by the way it worked.
What I leaned was that the Normans wanted to homogenize the administration of justice throughout their Kingdom so they trained judges in their laws in London and then sent them out to preside at courts around the country. (The origins of circuit judges?) The judges were experts in law but knew little of the places where they were presiding or the people involved.
Juries were selected from the population who would know the accused or complainants. Their job was to listen to the evidence given by the people involved to assess who was being truthful.
#277
Re: Spare a thought for these families.
The accused is on Trial. The fact you appear to fail to understand this is very worrying
Last edited by Almost Canadian; Sep 24th 2012 at 4:21 pm.
#278
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Somewhere between Vancouver & St Johns
Posts: 19,846
Re: Spare a thought for these families.
#279
Re: Spare a thought for these families.
No and thats a whole other debate.
Those who were convicted like the Steven Truscotts and David Milgards of this world received justice and also compensation. Others havent.
Whats is justice anyway and by whos definition?
Spending 10 years in Prison for being wrongfully convicted then being found not guilty some would call justice. The conviction was overturned is justice.
Those who were convicted like the Steven Truscotts and David Milgards of this world received justice and also compensation. Others havent.
Whats is justice anyway and by whos definition?
Spending 10 years in Prison for being wrongfully convicted then being found not guilty some would call justice. The conviction was overturned is justice.
#280
limey party pooper
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 9,982
Re: Spare a thought for these families.
Hospital staff have a responsibility for patient advocacy and care. It's fairly common for staff to be attacked by patients and relatives. One hospital I worked in a nurse had a gun aimed at her. A patient tried to strangle one worker. I've been hit, insulted, spat on. I work alone at night.
#281
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Somewhere between Vancouver & St Johns
Posts: 19,846
Re: Spare a thought for these families.
Depends on your point of view I guess or what you classify as things.
I describe things as an event given the context of this thread.
The tasering death at YVR was an event not a thing that happened.
Buying an iPhone 5 is an event to some but buying a thing to others.
Nobody said the world or society is fair.
If I turned around and said its not fair my mother would say Aye and its not raining either.
I describe things as an event given the context of this thread.
The tasering death at YVR was an event not a thing that happened.
Buying an iPhone 5 is an event to some but buying a thing to others.
Nobody said the world or society is fair.
If I turned around and said its not fair my mother would say Aye and its not raining either.
#282
Re: Spare a thought for these families.
Depends on your point of view I guess or what you classify as things.
I describe things as an event given the context of this thread.
The tasering death at YVR was an event not a thing that happened.
Buying an iPhone 5 is an event to some but buying a thing to others.
Nobody said the world or society is fair.
If I turned around and said its not fair my mother would say Aye and its not raining either.
I describe things as an event given the context of this thread.
The tasering death at YVR was an event not a thing that happened.
Buying an iPhone 5 is an event to some but buying a thing to others.
Nobody said the world or society is fair.
If I turned around and said its not fair my mother would say Aye and its not raining either.
#283
Banned
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,088
Re: Spare a thought for these families.
If they were acquitted and that was not successfully appealed they are innocent. If you don't believe that this is, legally, correct, please provide me with your legal authority for the position that they were not innocent in the criminal sense.
The accused is on Trial. The fact you appear to fail to understand this is very worrying
The accused is on Trial. The fact you appear to fail to understand this is very worrying
Sigh....
I ask you to show me where not guilty is "legally" considered innocent.
Here is what legal dictionaries consider it:
not guilty
2) verdict after trial by a judge sitting without a jury or by a jury, stating that the prosecution has not proved the defendant guilty of a crime or that it believes the accused person was insane at the time the crime was committed.
Its such a well established principle I'm genuinely surprised at your apparent lack of knowledge .....innocent actually means you didn’t do something while not guilty is a legal term that means there wasn’t enough evidence to convict. the two are not mutually exclusive.
The presumption acts as a shield at trial, and only at trial until and if the accused is found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The presumption does not exist outside of the actual trial, ie while the accused or his lawyer may consider him innocent (which is their perogative), the courts don't. If he's guilty he's not innocent. But if he's found not guilty, he's considered not guilty of the charged offence/offences but not innocent of the offence, ie the case was not proved.
Similarly, one may be found not guilty of a certain offence but guilty of another. It does not mean they were innocent of the original offence, that is they did not do it.
For example, suppose there's no doubt someone stabbed someone (maybe it was on live tv or something....) He's charged with attempt murder. The judge is not convinced as to the evidence of intent and finds him:
1. not guilty of attempt murder
2. but guilty of assault weapon
To have ruled innocent, ie he didn't do anything, would be factually wrong. He did stab the person but was only guilty of assault and not attempt murder.
The courts don't make a finding of innocence. The presumption does not apply in any setting other than at trial and reverse onus cases even challenge this notion, creating a bit of legal quandary.
So, there is really no such thing as innocent until proven guilty, only a presumption of innocence during trial.The courts don't care if the person considers themselves not guilty or innocent. It is not the place of the court to consider such matters.
Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms: Section 11(d): the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law
The Supreme Court of Canada has referred to this constitutional right as “the golden thread” that runs through the criminal law. The burden is always on the prosecution to prove a criminal case. The presumption of innocence acts as a shield to protect an individual where the evidence falls short of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Section 11(d) entrenches the long standing common law principle that no person can be convicted if there exists a reasonable doubt that they committed the offence. It is because of s. 11(d) that the court is constitutionally required to prove every element of the offence beyond a reasonable doubt and also to disprove the validity of any defence beyond a reasonable doubt. The Supreme Court has ruled that it would contravene s. 11(d) if the defence was required to disprove an element of the offence or to prove the existence of a defence. Thus, at minimum, the defence must show that the case, as presented by the prosecution, leaves a reasonable doubt as to whether the defendant is guilty.
http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/charter_digest/s-11-d.html
Criminal Code under section 6(1) (a): a person shall be deemed not guilty of the offence until he is convicted or discharged under section 730 of the offence: and.......
Last edited by Boy d; Sep 25th 2012 at 1:08 am.
#284
Banned
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,088
Re: Spare a thought for these families.
If they were acquitted and that was not successfully appealed they are innocent. If you don't believe that this is, legally, correct, please provide me with your legal authority for the position that they were not innocent in the criminal sense.
The accused is on Trial. The fact you appear to fail to understand this is very worrying
The accused is on Trial. The fact you appear to fail to understand this is very worrying
I was not literally suggesting that the accused was not on trial, of course he/she is. I would have thought that obvious, but the nature of the adversarial system requires the crown to prove guilt not the accused to prove they are not guilty. Defense attack the crown's case, which are the fruits of the police's investigation. We are not like the USA and the crown are not permitted to direct the investigation or conduct aspects of it. In essence, and I quote many legal layman, the police investigation is what is on trial:
Justice David Watts said the following: The trial of the accused has become a mere side-show; the trial of the investigation is now the main event”.
See top of page 7 in the linked address from another Canadian Justice.
Have criminal trials become interminable games, in which the trial
of the accused is regularly overshadowed by the trial of the
investigation?....The Honourable Justice Michael J. Moldaver
Court of Appeal for Ontario
__________________
http://www.lsuc.on.ca/media/tenth_co...m_moldaver.pdf
It is of course only intended to highlight that it's the nature of how police gather evidence that is largely considered at trial, and is often central to what takes place in the court room. This has certainly been my experience. there are certainly more police witnesses called than any others.
Last edited by Boy d; Sep 25th 2012 at 12:28 am.