|
Re: Religion
Originally Posted by triumphguy
(Post 7306258)
One could also trace the roots of western democracy and freedom of the individual back to the writings of Paul.
Free thinkers have a lot to thank the old monks and priests for! In other words - one could not be an atheist without the church! |
Re: Religion
Originally Posted by triumphguy
(Post 7306258)
Regarding the church and intellect: without Franciscan scholars translating arab translations of Aristotle in the 12th centruy and onwards a scientific revolution in thinking would not have occured - or only many centuries later.
Irish monks in the dark ages could be argued to have kept the roots of Western Civilization alive. It quite possible we'd be even further ahead the church is responsible fro holding back the progress of Europe many times when that step conflicted with the teachings of the day Copernicus and Galileo spring to mind |
Re: Religion
Originally Posted by James Martindale
(Post 7306363)
Yes. Like it or not Atheist's have to accept that Western Society is founded on Christian principles and the law has developed on those principles of right and wrong over time. In the court of law people are made to swear on the bible when they testify etc.....
I don't see right or wrong as something exclusive to religion And I don't have to swear on a bible nor would any judge with common sense impose it ;) |
Re: Religion
Originally Posted by triumphguy
(Post 7306258)
Regarding the church and intellect: without Franciscan scholars translating arab translations of Aristotle in the 12th centruy and onwards a scientific revolution in thinking would not have occured - or only many centuries later.
It's not clear what this scientific revolution which apparently occurred soon after the 12C consisted of, but whatever it was, why was it more valuable for God to have it occur in Europe rather than, say, Persia? |
Re: Religion
Ah - that's an interesting conundrum!
The church was asking Copernicus to "prove" that the earth was not the center of the universe! Precisely what non-believers are asking believers to do! One has to break down the difference between fundamentalism and orthodoxy also. Thinking goes wrong when it resorts to fundamentalism. There's a difference between right thinking and thinking I'm right. When thinking becomes institutionalised there is a danger of "thinking I'm right." The church is always at it's best when counter cultural, rather than monolithic. Where a non-catholic can point to the institutional monolith of the Church in the middle ages, I can think of the thinkers who challenged that monolith from within and so helped change the world. The roots of the inquisition is not so different from today: monolithic catholicism 'defending' europe from the inroads of monolithic mohammedism, versus 'monolithic' 'western - read American - democracy (read capitalism)defending the world from encroaching Islam. Abu Gharib could be the new Inquisition! Instead of point at the past, we can use lessons of our human weakness in the past to point out current day wrongs, and place them in context. |
Re: Religion
Originally Posted by Novocastrian
(Post 7306465)
Or perhaps centuries earlier, but not in Europe first?
It's not clear what this scientific revolution which apparently occurred soon after the 12C consisted of, but whatever it was, why was it more valuable for God to have it occur in Europe rather than, say, Persia? It wasn't - Europe happened to invent the printing press a short time later.:rofl: |
Re: Religion
Originally Posted by triumphguy
(Post 7306469)
It wasn't - Europe happened to invent the printing press a short time later.:rofl:
|
Re: Religion
Originally Posted by triumphguy
(Post 7306467)
The church was asking Copernicus to "prove" that the earth was not the center of the universe! Precisely what non-believers are asking believers to do! The church is always at it's best when counter cultural, rather than monolithic. |
Re: Religion
Originally Posted by Novocastrian
(Post 7306483)
400 years later. Surely that's a ridiculously weak argument? And it wasn't Europe, it was a German called Gutenberg. It took another 400 years to get to the European Union. I suppose that was the inevitable consequence of typesetting?
When we all die we will know who is the true victor of the arguement. Until then I am putting religion in the same carpark as race and social class. |
Re: Religion
Originally Posted by James Martindale
(Post 7306505)
When we all die we will know who is the true victor of the arguement. |
Re: Religion
It's Sir Alex Ferguson, right?
Originally Posted by James Martindale
(Post 7306505)
When we all die we will know who is the true victor of the arguement.
|
Re: Religion
Originally Posted by triumphguy
(Post 7306467)
The church was asking Copernicus to "prove" that the earth was not the center of the universe! Precisely what non-believers are asking believers to do!
we're not asking you to prove anything, we may however point out that your proof may not be what you think it is I would add that some scientists would go further to suggest that the available evidence would suggest that their is scant reason for the existence of a creator and certainly enough is known about the fundamentals of the universe to suggest that its statistically more probable that there isn't a creator |
Re: Religion
Originally Posted by MikeUK
(Post 7306517)
No I don't think you quite understand the non-believer
we're not asking you to prove anything, we may however point out that your proof may not be what you think it is I would add that some scientists would go further to suggest that the available evidence would suggest that their is scant reason for the existence of a creator and certainly enough is known about the fundamentals of the universe to suggest that its statistically more probable that there isn't a creator |
Re: Religion
Originally Posted by Novocastrian
(Post 7306537)
I take it from that you've already come across "The Creation" by Peter W. Atkins? If not, I strongly recommend it.
|
Re: Religion
Originally Posted by James Martindale
(Post 7306363)
Yes. Like it or not Atheist's have to accept that Western Society is founded on Christian principles and the law has developed on those principles of right and wrong over time.
|
| All times are GMT -12. The time now is 3:31 pm. |
Powered by vBulletin: ©2000 - 2026, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.