real estate prices in Canada sustainable?
May 14th 2021, 2:32 pm
#451
Yo
Joined: Nov 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,474
Re: real estate prices in Canada sustainable?
I don't see how more immigration drives house prices at this point in Toronto.
Given the state of salaries whether five people want a house or twenty people want a house- none of them can afford the current asking price so eventually it will have to dip to sell.
We're beyond the rational point of affordability in my opinion because the average salary is $60 to $70k while the average property price is $910k.
I also don't see many immigrants rolling into Canada with a $91k deposit when you look at the breakdown of their countries of origin and the GDP's of those places: https://www.immigration.ca/where-wil...e-from-in-2021
This is a bank report with a bias for maintaining their investment in housing stock.
Given the state of salaries whether five people want a house or twenty people want a house- none of them can afford the current asking price so eventually it will have to dip to sell.
We're beyond the rational point of affordability in my opinion because the average salary is $60 to $70k while the average property price is $910k.
I also don't see many immigrants rolling into Canada with a $91k deposit when you look at the breakdown of their countries of origin and the GDP's of those places: https://www.immigration.ca/where-wil...e-from-in-2021
This is a bank report with a bias for maintaining their investment in housing stock.
May 14th 2021, 3:50 pm
#452
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Re: real estate prices in Canada sustainable?
The biggest problem with renting in Canada is the instability it brings and how often as a renter one tends to have to move through no choice of their own, not many these days are in the rental business for long term, and its incredibly difficult to find stable rental housing in much of Canada.
There is also the simple fact insufficient rental stock has been built for many years now leading to unhealthily low vacancy rates pushing rents up.
There is also the simple fact insufficient rental stock has been built for many years now leading to unhealthily low vacancy rates pushing rents up.
I did a deep dive into German (and Dutch) rental arrangements, from an Anglo expat's perspective, for a potential relocation just over a decade ago, that eventually fell over during the GFC. (So, a view informed/constrained by expat considerations, a mildly-above-median income profile, and mostly English-language source material, plus considerable well-meant anecdotal advice/viewpoints from my would-be German colleagues. Take it FWIW...)
My take on it then, was that German tenancy laws are much more favorable to tenants than the Anglosphere-country (UK, US, Canada, Australia, NZ) average, and are particularly geared towards sustaining stable, longterm tenancies in dwellings of whatever type (houses, townhouses, apartments).
But that didn't mean that my colleagues, in the German office I was looking to relocate to, did not nonetheless prefer to own, rather than rent, their dwellings..
My take on it then, was that German tenancy laws are much more favorable to tenants than the Anglosphere-country (UK, US, Canada, Australia, NZ) average, and are particularly geared towards sustaining stable, longterm tenancies in dwellings of whatever type (houses, townhouses, apartments).
But that didn't mean that my colleagues, in the German office I was looking to relocate to, did not nonetheless prefer to own, rather than rent, their dwellings..
May 14th 2021, 4:02 pm
#453
Assimilated Pauper
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 40,018
Re: real estate prices in Canada sustainable?
The biggest problem with renting in Canada is the instability it brings and how often as a renter one tends to have to move through no choice of their own, not many these days are in the rental business for long term, and its incredibly difficult to find stable rental housing in much of Canada..
May 14th 2021, 4:15 pm
#454
Yo
Joined: Nov 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 24,474
Re: real estate prices in Canada sustainable?
I don't think this holds. Landlords don't want turnover, they want long term tenants at the market rate because turnover is expensive. Turnover in Vancouver fell from 2019 to 2020 (https://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/profe...rt-data-tables) presumably because property prices went up so fewer people bought a house and moved out of rental property.
May 14th 2021, 4:27 pm
#455
SUPER MODERATOR
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 88,021
Re: real estate prices in Canada sustainable?
More and more condo buildings in the GTA are not allowing AirBnB.
May 14th 2021, 5:16 pm
#456
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Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
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Re: real estate prices in Canada sustainable?
I bring you spreadsheets, charts and diagrams, and you got gossip?
May 14th 2021, 8:05 pm
#457
Dive Bar Drunk
Joined: Nov 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 8,649
Re: real estate prices in Canada sustainable?
It's pretty much banned in Toronto.
You can rent a room of a primary residence but a whole unit now has a whole list of fines and technicalities.
That also helped bring a lot of stock back onto the market in our neighbourhood which I think has contributed to the recent rent correction.
Yes I said we're neighbours
By the way do you live in the building that has its own pub/restaurant in it?
You can rent a room of a primary residence but a whole unit now has a whole list of fines and technicalities.
That also helped bring a lot of stock back onto the market in our neighbourhood which I think has contributed to the recent rent correction.
Yes I said we're neighbours
By the way do you live in the building that has its own pub/restaurant in it?
May 14th 2021, 8:07 pm
#458
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 88,021
Re: real estate prices in Canada sustainable?
It's pretty much banned in Toronto.
You can rent a room of a primary residence but a whole unit now has a whole list of fines and technicalities.
That also helped bring a lot of stock back onto the market in our neighbourhood which I think has contributed to the recent rent correction.
Yes I said we're neighbours
By the way do you live in the building that has its own pub/restaurant in it?
You can rent a room of a primary residence but a whole unit now has a whole list of fines and technicalities.
That also helped bring a lot of stock back onto the market in our neighbourhood which I think has contributed to the recent rent correction.
Yes I said we're neighbours
By the way do you live in the building that has its own pub/restaurant in it?
Unfortunately no.
May 15th 2021, 12:58 am
#459
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Joined: Apr 2009
Location: SW Ontario
Posts: 19,879
Re: real estate prices in Canada sustainable?
I personally know of 3 people that have had to take action against landlord because the landlords were trying to evict them 'for personal use requirements' - when they were actually doing them up to rent them at a higher rate and / or sell them. There is a house directly across from me where the tenants (main and upper floor and basement apartments) have all been evicted at short notice because the landlord 'needs the property for their own use' - judging by the amount of people going into the property over the last week, I suspect this is not the case at all. "Bad Faith".
For more than two decades in Ontario, as successive governments have tinkered with rent control, there’s been a moment between tenancies when landlords can raise rents to whatever they’d like.
That ability is known as “vacancy decontrol.” Some see it as a kind of pressure valve, allowing property owners to bring rents up to market rates after long-term tenants leave. But others see it as driver of increasing rental costs, and an incentive to displace renters from affordable units.
“While most landlords are fair and honest, some aren’t, and vacancy decontrol really gives an incentive to those landlords to give notices that aren’t in good faith,” Fleming said.
From 2015 to the end of 2018, the LTB saw a 77 per cent increase in eviction applications for landlord’s own use, and a 149 per cent increase in applications to evict for renovations.
They argue that cutting vacancy decontrol would preserve Ontario’s affordable rental stock, and prevent landlords from trying to evict tenants in bad faith, to charge a new tenant more.
That ability is known as “vacancy decontrol.” Some see it as a kind of pressure valve, allowing property owners to bring rents up to market rates after long-term tenants leave. But others see it as driver of increasing rental costs, and an incentive to displace renters from affordable units.
“While most landlords are fair and honest, some aren’t, and vacancy decontrol really gives an incentive to those landlords to give notices that aren’t in good faith,” Fleming said.
From 2015 to the end of 2018, the LTB saw a 77 per cent increase in eviction applications for landlord’s own use, and a 149 per cent increase in applications to evict for renovations.
They argue that cutting vacancy decontrol would preserve Ontario’s affordable rental stock, and prevent landlords from trying to evict tenants in bad faith, to charge a new tenant more.
Last edited by Siouxie; May 15th 2021 at 1:01 am.
May 15th 2021, 1:48 am
#460
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Re: real estate prices in Canada sustainable?
Disagree - if you have a tenant for 5 years paying $1,000 a month and you can get a new tenant who will pay $2000 a month by gettiing shot of the old one - what do you think their choice will be?
I personally know of 3 people that have had to take action against landlord because the landlords were trying to evict them 'for personal use requirements' - when they were actually doing them up to rent them at a higher rate and / or sell them. There is a house directly across from me where the tenants (main and upper floor and basement apartments) have all been evicted at short notice because the landlord 'needs the property for their own use' - judging by the amount of people going into the property over the last week, I suspect this is not the case at all. "Bad Faith".
I personally know of 3 people that have had to take action against landlord because the landlords were trying to evict them 'for personal use requirements' - when they were actually doing them up to rent them at a higher rate and / or sell them. There is a house directly across from me where the tenants (main and upper floor and basement apartments) have all been evicted at short notice because the landlord 'needs the property for their own use' - judging by the amount of people going into the property over the last week, I suspect this is not the case at all. "Bad Faith".
For many years market rents were climbing more than 0% to 4% a year and so turnover of tenants was desired by enough landlords that got the government changed parts of the RTA to make it harder for landlords to evict.
Prior to the changes, a fixed term rental agreement had an option for the landlord to include a move out clause, basically instead of the agreement going month to month as they do now, when the term ended with a move out clause, the existing tenant had to move, or pay whatever the new market rent was, sometimes going up $400-$500+ a month vs the previous year.
Even in government housing your not entirely safe, a certain political party in BC has been known to sell social housing to private developers who then tear it down, and don't hold up their end of the bargain and end up with less social housing and not just sell but sell it to a foreign company under a secret contract, evicting 700 people, and tearing down 224 units of social housing, of which only 53 units have been rebuilt, and this saga has been on going since like 2008/2009.
https://vancouversun.com/news/local-...social-housing
https://littlemountainproject.com/
May 15th 2021, 2:10 am
#461
Assimilated Pauper
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 40,018
Re: real estate prices in Canada sustainable?
Disagree - if you have a tenant for 5 years paying $1,000 a month and you can get a new tenant who will pay $2000 a month by gettiing shot of the old one - what do you think their choice will be?
I personally know of 3 people that have had to take action against landlord because the landlords were trying to evict them 'for personal use requirements' - when they were actually doing them up to rent them at a higher rate and / or sell them. There is a house directly across from me where the tenants (main and upper floor and basement apartments) have all been evicted at short notice because the landlord 'needs the property for their own use' - judging by the amount of people going into the property over the last week, I suspect this is not the case at all. "Bad Faith".
I personally know of 3 people that have had to take action against landlord because the landlords were trying to evict them 'for personal use requirements' - when they were actually doing them up to rent them at a higher rate and / or sell them. There is a house directly across from me where the tenants (main and upper floor and basement apartments) have all been evicted at short notice because the landlord 'needs the property for their own use' - judging by the amount of people going into the property over the last week, I suspect this is not the case at all. "Bad Faith".
That said, if someone is renting an apartment for $1000 and can increase the rent in annual increments so as to arrive at $2000 five years later, it's better to keep the existing tenant than to throw the tenant out, withstand a month of empty property, redecorate, and recruit a new tenant. Even if the landlord can only charge $1800 in a $2000 market, it's still better to keep the original tenant.
If there is a rent control policy that precludes charging anything like the going rate for rent then, of course, the tenants are going to get the heave-ho by any means necessary. If cities need private landlords then their rent control policies need to take into account the landlord's opportunity cost in not evicting, in the example, they need to set the rent at $1800 or so not $1100 or similar.
May 15th 2021, 2:26 am
#462
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Re: real estate prices in Canada sustainable?
City's at least in BC have no power over rent control policy, its a provincial regulation, honestly actually surprised the BC Liberals never removed it during their 17 year reign. NDP wont touch it. 40+ years of poor rent control policy is what led BC to the place its in when it comes to rental shortage.
Last edited by scrubbedexpat091; May 15th 2021 at 2:36 am.
May 15th 2021, 4:06 am
#463
Dive Bar Drunk
Joined: Nov 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 8,649
Re: real estate prices in Canada sustainable?
City's at least in BC have no power over rent control policy, its a provincial regulation, honestly actually surprised the BC Liberals never removed it during their 17 year reign. NDP wont touch it. 40+ years of poor rent control policy is what led BC to the place its in when it comes to rental shortage.
With all the madness going on with real estate market or the housing market as it was called in Blighty the rent controls in Toronto have kept some sanity for me.
8 years in my unit and thankfully during that period my rent has gone up approximately 16%.
May 15th 2021, 4:26 am
#464
Banned
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: SW Ontario
Posts: 19,879
Re: real estate prices in Canada sustainable?
Firstly, I assume most small scale landlords act in bad faith and that clauses such as "housing a relative" or "move into the property" are rarely used honestly. It's a sleazy business and, generally speaking, people are shit.
That said, if someone is renting an apartment for $1000 and can increase the rent in annual increments so as to arrive at $2000 five years later, it's better to keep the existing tenant than to throw the tenant out, withstand a month of empty property, redecorate, and recruit a new tenant. Even if the landlord can only charge $1800 in a $2000 market, it's still better to keep the original tenant.
If there is a rent control policy that precludes charging anything like the going rate for rent then, of course, the tenants are going to get the heave-ho by any means necessary. If cities need private landlords then their rent control policies need to take into account the landlord's opportunity cost in not evicting, in the example, they need to set the rent at $1800 or so not $1100 or similar.
That said, if someone is renting an apartment for $1000 and can increase the rent in annual increments so as to arrive at $2000 five years later, it's better to keep the existing tenant than to throw the tenant out, withstand a month of empty property, redecorate, and recruit a new tenant. Even if the landlord can only charge $1800 in a $2000 market, it's still better to keep the original tenant.
If there is a rent control policy that precludes charging anything like the going rate for rent then, of course, the tenants are going to get the heave-ho by any means necessary. If cities need private landlords then their rent control policies need to take into account the landlord's opportunity cost in not evicting, in the example, they need to set the rent at $1800 or so not $1100 or similar.
https://www.ontario.ca/page/residential-rent-increases
May 15th 2021, 5:23 am
#465
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Re: real estate prices in Canada sustainable?
16% over 8 years isn't bad. Over the last 8 years in BC maximum would have been 21.6% increase spread over the entire 8 years.
When we paid market rent, our biggest issue was income wasn't keeping pace with all the other increases, so every year became harder and harder as income was flat but everything else kept going up, most years the raises I did get wouldn't even cover basic inflation let alone actual inflation of prices for food and other essential needs.
When we paid market rent, our biggest issue was income wasn't keeping pace with all the other increases, so every year became harder and harder as income was flat but everything else kept going up, most years the raises I did get wouldn't even cover basic inflation let alone actual inflation of prices for food and other essential needs.
Rent control in Toronto is good. I think it will help stabilize prices in the longer term.
With all the madness going on with real estate market or the housing market as it was called in Blighty the rent controls in Toronto have kept some sanity for me.
8 years in my unit and thankfully during that period my rent has gone up approximately 16%.
With all the madness going on with real estate market or the housing market as it was called in Blighty the rent controls in Toronto have kept some sanity for me.
8 years in my unit and thankfully during that period my rent has gone up approximately 16%.