PM Boris
#571
Re: PM Boris
It's hard to encourage people to vote on cold, emotionless facts, and when most of the popular media is on the opposition's side. Leave had an advantage of having had the near-constant drip-drip of anti-EU stories for at least 20 yrs, creating fear and division, and the EU referendum gave readers of those publications an outlet for their voices.
#572
Re: PM Boris
True, that may be a difficult position to take, but the degree to which Brexit allows the UK to "take back conrtol" of immigration (and absolutely, the degree to which that is actually a desirable outcome) is certainly questionable. Much easier, though, to point out the fact that there were (indeed, until Brexit, there still are) already very many tools in the EU toolbox (such as requiring registration, requiring proof of gainful employment within a certain period, etc etc) for EU migrants that the UK chose not to implement. Those tools would have provided significantly greater control over immigration within the context of the EU.
#573
Re: PM Boris
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2. The UK's demand for cheap labour means that there will still be loads of impoverished immigrants, perhaps more Chinese and Indians, perhaps America's rejects, just from different countries. I don't think the average Britain particularly hates his or her house being burgled by Europeans, they just don't want their houses burgled, so it's out-of-the-frying-pan.
2. The UK's demand for cheap labour means that there will still be loads of impoverished immigrants, perhaps more Chinese and Indians, perhaps America's rejects, just from different countries. I don't think the average Britain particularly hates his or her house being burgled by Europeans, they just don't want their houses burgled, so it's out-of-the-frying-pan.
#574
Re: PM Boris
True, that may be a difficult position to take, but the degree to which Brexit allows the UK to "take back conrtol" of immigration (and absolutely, the degree to which that is actually a desirable outcome) is certainly questionable. Much easier, though, to point out the fact that there were (indeed, until Brexit, there still are) already very many tools in the EU toolbox (such as requiring registration, requiring proof of gainful employment within a certain period, etc etc) for EU migrants that the UK chose not to implement. Those tools would have provided significantly greater control over immigration within the context of the EU.
#575
Re: PM Boris
2. The UK's demand for cheap labour means that there will still be loads of impoverished immigrants, perhaps more Chinese and Indians, perhaps America's rejects, just from different countries. I don't think the average Britain particularly hates his or her house being burgled by Europeans, they just don't want their houses burgled, so it's out-of-the-frying-pan.
#576
Re: PM Boris
It's hard to encourage people to vote on cold, emotionless facts, and when most of the popular media is on the opposition's side. Leave had an advantage of having had the near-constant drip-drip of anti-EU stories for at least 20 yrs, creating fear and division, and the EU referendum gave readers of those publications an outlet for their voices.
Yes, Remain could have done better. Any suggestions on what they could/should have done?
Yes, Remain could have done better. Any suggestions on what they could/should have done?
#577
Re: PM Boris
Cummings is clearly driving Johnson to appeal to the emotive not the cerebral, I can promise you that my Facebook feed is testament to the success of that strategy. But hopefully in the final event, cerebral will win over emotion.
What fascinating times we live in. And all the while utterly ignoring the very real climate catastrophe that awaits our grandchildren.
#578
Account Closed
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 0
Re: PM Boris
From the Schumann Declaration, 1950 -
this proposal will lead to the realization of the first concrete foundation of a European federation indispensable to the preservation of peace.
#579
Re: PM Boris
True, but Polish plumbers cannot come to Canada and undercut the local workforce as they can throughout the EU. That is not an issue if you want to have your plumbing done cheaply, but is if you are a plumber that loses your livelihood, or has your income reduced, as a result.
#580
Re: PM Boris
Polish plumbers cannot legally undercut British plumbers, unless British customers are happy to break the law. And if an electorate is willing to break the law so readily, we may as well all move to Italy.
#581
Re: PM Boris
One needn't consider the electorate as a whole.... the informed on either side will vote according to their considered opinions. It's only the uninformed that you need to win over... to put it crudely, Sun readers, Mail readers, Mirror readers. And emotion trumps over fact with that lot.
Cummings is clearly driving Johnson to appeal to the emotive not the cerebral, I can promise you that my Facebook feed is testament to the success of that strategy. But hopefully in the final event, cerebral will win over emotion.
What fascinating times we live in. And all the while utterly ignoring the very real climate catastrophe that awaits our grandchildren.
Cummings is clearly driving Johnson to appeal to the emotive not the cerebral, I can promise you that my Facebook feed is testament to the success of that strategy. But hopefully in the final event, cerebral will win over emotion.
What fascinating times we live in. And all the while utterly ignoring the very real climate catastrophe that awaits our grandchildren.
I would have voted to remain, but I wouldn't attempt to argue that those that disagreed with me were uninformed. They simply have different priorities. None of which are any less valid than mine.
Many of my relatives live in Cornwall. Post 1992, they had nothing good to say about the EU. Many of my other relatives live in Ireland and, for them, the EU is a wonderful thing. Each equally valid and to dismiss one over the other simply because of how their lives, or yours, is affected is, sorry, bullshit.
#582
Re: PM Boris
I appreciate that an employer may not be able to pay their employers differently based upon nationality but, whether the employer gets the work in the first place is simple economics, is it not?
#583
Re: PM Boris
Oh, I see. The argument that those that don't agree with you are "uninformed."
I would have voted to remain, but I wouldn't attempt to argue that those that disagreed with me were uninformed. They simply have different priorities. None of which are any less valid than mine.
Many of my relatives live in Cornwall. Post 1992, they had nothing good to say about the EU. Many of my other relatives live in Ireland and, for them, the EU is a wonderful thing. Each equally valid and to dismiss one over the other simply because of how their lives, or yours, is affected is, sorry, bullshit.
I would have voted to remain, but I wouldn't attempt to argue that those that disagreed with me were uninformed. They simply have different priorities. None of which are any less valid than mine.
Many of my relatives live in Cornwall. Post 1992, they had nothing good to say about the EU. Many of my other relatives live in Ireland and, for them, the EU is a wonderful thing. Each equally valid and to dismiss one over the other simply because of how their lives, or yours, is affected is, sorry, bullshit.
I'm not saying they were stupid or racist, but - uninformed as to what Brexit entails - absolutely yes. Then and now.
#584
Account Closed
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 26,319
Re: PM Boris
Those who weren't persuaded by the arguments in favour of Leaving, and those who didn't vote for whatever reason, could have been assumed to have either been in favour of the status quo (Remain) or just didn't care enough to change it (discounting those Leavers who didn't receive ballot papers in time).
#585
Re: PM Boris
Of course they were uninformed. Even today, 3 and a half years later, they're still uninformed. Why did the government have to be legally forced to reveal certain documents like Operation Yellowhammer?
I'm not saying they were stupid or racist, but - uninformed as to what Brexit entails - absolutely yes. Then and now.
I'm not saying they were stupid or racist, but - uninformed as to what Brexit entails - absolutely yes. Then and now.