PM Boris
#106
Re: PM Boris
When you say "do people" (care) what you actually mean is "do the English" as most Scots, Welsh, NI do have firm views one way or another on the union. Hard to know how England would vote on a trade off between keeping the UK together and remaining within the EU. One would think that European identity is even more an abstract concept than British identity, but the gutter press has whipped up such a paranoia about the EU that some are prepared to see a break up of the four nations.
#107
Re: PM Boris
Maybe, but I don't believe that there will be a change in the result from the last one. Those that wished to remain are unlikely to have changed their minds and I doubt there will be much of a change from those that wished to leave. If, as alleged above, they were ill informed, they are likely to be just as ill informed this time.
There were also many people who didn't vote. It seems a reasonable assumption that those wanting to leave did actually vote because not voting to leave was more likely to result in remaining.
Of course, it's also possible that some of those would now vote to leave because of the failure to do so since. But I imagine that would be few.
As to people being just as misinformed this time - I'm sure many people now know that the £350m for the NHS was a lie. If that was a major factor - and one assumes the effort put into it was not misguided (a bit like if advertising doesn't work why spend so much money on it?) then it would be less of a convincer this time, perhaps even the opposite.
I'm certain that some people also know the fines for offences (and the number of offences themselves) imposed on the leave side by the electoral commission massively exceeded those on the remain side, indicating a high level of disonhesty on the leave side compared to remain. Quite possibly, though, the uninformed may remain uninformed in that respect but some will have been informed (by family, friends, forums, even if their 'news' source of choice hasn't told them.
Will they still vote for the shown to be dishonest side?
I like to think not, but there's increasing evidence that since the integrity bar was lowered, enough don't give a damn about such niceties anymore.
#108
Re: PM Boris
When you say "do people" (care) what you actually mean is "do the English" as most Scots, Welsh, NI do have firm views one way or another on the union. Hard to know how England would vote on a trade off between keeping the UK together and remaining within the EU. One would think that European identity is even more an abstract concept than British identity, but the gutter press has whipped up such a paranoia about the EU that some are prepared to see a break up of the four nations.
Having patrolled NI prior to the Good Friday Agreement I know that, in those times, virtually everyone felt one way or the other, as result of events that related to events that occurred prior to Brexit. I have no idea if that has changed, but I doubt it.
The recent independence referendum in Scotland showed what the position was then and, while that may have changed since, polls suggest otherwise. My experience of having to deal with lots of Scots resulted from my time in the Army and, when I first met them, I was taken aback by how their views of the English had been affected by what they had learned in school. My recollection of school history was that there was no mention of anything related to the battles between the two countries. I have never experienced any animosity towards Scots from the English, but I have experienced lots that went the other way. So I accept that Scots may feel very differently towards the English than the English about the Scots.
I would argue that most in Wales really don't care but I accept that residents of rural north Wales hate the English with a passion. Whether that is because of events from centuries ago, or more recent events, is debatable but, again, politicians aside, I have no experience of the Welsh wanting to break away from the UK and go it alone.
One never hears of the Scots having an issue with the Welsh, or those in NI, or the Welsh having an issue with those in NI or Scotland. I accept that those in NI that wish to have a united Ireland always refer to "Brits" rather than the "English." As a result of this, I believe that Scotland has an issue with "England" rather than with NI or Wales, but I accept that I may be wrong.
I believe that most English identify as being "British", most Scots identify as being "Scottish", most in Wales are somewhat ambivalent between being "Welsh" and being "British" and those in NI will identify as either "Irish" or "British" along sectarian grounds.
Last edited by Almost Canadian; Aug 9th 2019 at 2:15 pm.
#109
Re: PM Boris
There have been several opinion polls indicating a vote the other way. Of course such polls were wrong last time and have been wrong before. But mostly, they've been fairly accurate.
There were also many people who didn't vote. It seems a reasonable assumption that those wanting to leave did actually vote because not voting to leave was more likely to result in remaining.
Of course, it's also possible that some of those would now vote to leave because of the failure to do so since. But I imagine that would be few.
As to people being just as misinformed this time - I'm sure many people now know that the £350m for the NHS was a lie. If that was a major factor - and one assumes the effort put into it was not misguided (a bit like if advertising doesn't work why spend so much money on it?) then it would be less of a convincer this time, perhaps even the opposite.
I'm certain that some people also know the fines for offences (and the number of offences themselves) imposed on the leave side by the electoral commission massively exceeded those on the remain side, indicating a high level of disonhesty on the leave side compared to remain. Quite possibly, though, the uninformed may remain uninformed in that respect but some will have been informed (by family, friends, forums, even if their 'news' source of choice hasn't told them.
Will they still vote for the shown to be dishonest side?
I like to think not, but there's increasing evidence that since the integrity bar was lowered, enough don't give a damn about such niceties anymore.
There were also many people who didn't vote. It seems a reasonable assumption that those wanting to leave did actually vote because not voting to leave was more likely to result in remaining.
Of course, it's also possible that some of those would now vote to leave because of the failure to do so since. But I imagine that would be few.
As to people being just as misinformed this time - I'm sure many people now know that the £350m for the NHS was a lie. If that was a major factor - and one assumes the effort put into it was not misguided (a bit like if advertising doesn't work why spend so much money on it?) then it would be less of a convincer this time, perhaps even the opposite.
I'm certain that some people also know the fines for offences (and the number of offences themselves) imposed on the leave side by the electoral commission massively exceeded those on the remain side, indicating a high level of disonhesty on the leave side compared to remain. Quite possibly, though, the uninformed may remain uninformed in that respect but some will have been informed (by family, friends, forums, even if their 'news' source of choice hasn't told them.
Will they still vote for the shown to be dishonest side?
I like to think not, but there's increasing evidence that since the integrity bar was lowered, enough don't give a damn about such niceties anymore.
The electorate always gets what it deserves.
#110
Re: PM Boris
....I have never experienced any animosity towards Scots from the English, but I have experienced lots that went the other way. So I accept that Scots may feel very differently towards the English than the English about the Scots....I would argue that most in Wales really don't care but I accept that residents of rural north Wales hate the English with a passion...One never hears of the Scots having an issue with the Welsh, or those in NI, or the Welsh having an issue with those in NI or Scotland...I believe that Scotland has an issue with "England" rather than with NI or Wales...
#111
Re: PM Boris
Just read today that this Dominic Cummings is in fact the son of a baronet. It does seem that those with the least to lose are the most vigorous propenents of Brexit.
#112
Re: PM Boris
The "hard border" issue is a bullshit issue, if we are talking about a border for immigration/trade. It is perfectly possible to resolve this so that there is minimal effect on both parties, the problem is, one party doesn't wish to play nicely as they hope that that will keep the UK in the EU.
If we are talking about tariffs, there is minimal benefit to either side playing hardball either and, as the EU has made it clear that the UK cannot have free movement of goods and services without also having free movement of people, the simple solution would be for each to impose minimum tariffs upon the other (0.1% for example). Of course, the bureaucrats in the EU will object to this because it may persuade others to leave but, when reality hits the member States, I imagine that that position will change dramatically.
Is the deal that the EU struck with Canada so bad that it couldn't be used as a starting point for the EU's negotiations with the UK? Other than the backstop nonsense, what was so bad with the agreement attempted by May?
These are all perfectly possible to overcome, time will tell whether that happens.
#113
Re: PM Boris
Maybe, but I don't believe that there will be a change in the result from the last one. Those that wished to remain are unlikely to have changed their minds and I doubt there will be much of a change from those that wished to leave. If, as alleged above, they were ill informed, they are likely to be just as ill informed this time. If, as has also been alleged, they were racist, xenophobes, they are likely to be just as racist and xenophobic now. There is also the argument that the debacle that has ensued with those MPs that didn't like the decision attempting to all they can to prevent the actual exit, will ensure that that fact alone will galvanise people to vote to leave.
#115
Re: PM Boris
A great many spleens being vented here.
We tend to reflect the Commons here.
There are those who view the referendum as some kind of aberration on the part of the UK electorate and it's up to them to teach the UK electorate the errors of their ways.
There are those, myself included, who view the referendum result as that rarity, a clear expression of the will of the UK electorate.
The result was a binary choice and there'll always be those who'll be upset no matter which way the vote went and I'll accept that they have the right to moan but what they don't have the right to do is to brush the result aside as though it had never happened and try for a 'two out of three' choice.
We tend to reflect the Commons here.
There are those who view the referendum as some kind of aberration on the part of the UK electorate and it's up to them to teach the UK electorate the errors of their ways.
There are those, myself included, who view the referendum result as that rarity, a clear expression of the will of the UK electorate.
The result was a binary choice and there'll always be those who'll be upset no matter which way the vote went and I'll accept that they have the right to moan but what they don't have the right to do is to brush the result aside as though it had never happened and try for a 'two out of three' choice.
#116
Re: PM Boris
A great many spleens being vented here.
We tend to reflect the Commons here.
There are those who view the referendum as some kind of aberration on the part of the UK electorate and it's up to them to teach the UK electorate the errors of their ways.
There are those, myself included, who view the referendum result as that rarity, a clear expression of the will of the UK electorate.
The result was a binary choice and there'll always be those who'll be upset no matter which way the vote went and I'll accept that they have the right to moan but what they don't have the right to do is to brush the result aside as though it had never happened and try for a 'two out of three' choice.
We tend to reflect the Commons here.
There are those who view the referendum as some kind of aberration on the part of the UK electorate and it's up to them to teach the UK electorate the errors of their ways.
There are those, myself included, who view the referendum result as that rarity, a clear expression of the will of the UK electorate.
The result was a binary choice and there'll always be those who'll be upset no matter which way the vote went and I'll accept that they have the right to moan but what they don't have the right to do is to brush the result aside as though it had never happened and try for a 'two out of three' choice.
#117
Re: PM Boris
A great many spleens being vented here.
We tend to reflect the Commons here.
There are those who view the referendum as some kind of aberration on the part of the UK electorate and it's up to them to teach the UK electorate the errors of their ways.
There are those, myself included, who view the referendum result as that rarity, a clear expression of the will of the UK electorate.
The result was a binary choice and there'll always be those who'll be upset no matter which way the vote went and I'll accept that they have the right to moan but what they don't have the right to do is to brush the result aside as though it had never happened and try for a 'two out of three' choice.
We tend to reflect the Commons here.
There are those who view the referendum as some kind of aberration on the part of the UK electorate and it's up to them to teach the UK electorate the errors of their ways.
There are those, myself included, who view the referendum result as that rarity, a clear expression of the will of the UK electorate.
The result was a binary choice and there'll always be those who'll be upset no matter which way the vote went and I'll accept that they have the right to moan but what they don't have the right to do is to brush the result aside as though it had never happened and try for a 'two out of three' choice.
#119
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2017
Location: Halifax, NS
Posts: 345
Re: PM Boris
#120
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2017
Location: Halifax, NS
Posts: 345
Re: PM Boris
A great many spleens being vented here.
We tend to reflect the Commons here.
There are those who view the referendum as some kind of aberration on the part of the UK electorate and it's up to them to teach the UK electorate the errors of their ways.
There are those, myself included, who view the referendum result as that rarity, a clear expression of the will of the UK electorate.
The result was a binary choice and there'll always be those who'll be upset no matter which way the vote went and I'll accept that they have the right to moan but what they don't have the right to do is to brush the result aside as though it had never happened and try for a 'two out of three' choice.
We tend to reflect the Commons here.
There are those who view the referendum as some kind of aberration on the part of the UK electorate and it's up to them to teach the UK electorate the errors of their ways.
There are those, myself included, who view the referendum result as that rarity, a clear expression of the will of the UK electorate.
The result was a binary choice and there'll always be those who'll be upset no matter which way the vote went and I'll accept that they have the right to moan but what they don't have the right to do is to brush the result aside as though it had never happened and try for a 'two out of three' choice.