PM Boris
#91
Re: PM Boris
What's the urgency? The PM has said it will happen "come what may" and it would appear that the EU is not prepared to move from its current position, which has already been rejected by Parliament on 3 previous occasions. If you believe that there is a solution that doesn't involve the EU changing its position, that will be able to get through Parliament, I suggest you courier it to the PM's office asap.
Like it or not, it is looking like the UK will leave the EU later this year without any form of agreement, which, of course, has already been agreed by Parliament. The UK and the EU being able to agree upon any form of withdrawal agreement is a bonus but the exit will happen, notwithstanding the fact that those that didn't like the outcome of referendum wish to avoid the exit.
Like it or not, it is looking like the UK will leave the EU later this year without any form of agreement, which, of course, has already been agreed by Parliament. The UK and the EU being able to agree upon any form of withdrawal agreement is a bonus but the exit will happen, notwithstanding the fact that those that didn't like the outcome of referendum wish to avoid the exit.
#92
Re: PM Boris
It's an irony that those most vocal about upholding democratic convention are adamant that current public opinion is not considered. Boris and his team of Brexit fanatics see no urgency as delays only favour the railroading of a No Deal Brexit. A very sad state of affairs in a mature democracy.
Time will tell whether those in the EU that are going to be massively affected by no deal will put pressure on others to change the EU's position, or whether those MPs in the UK that support remaining in the EU will be able to use the Parliamentary process to avoid that which Parliament has already agreed upon. Like it or not, the UK is going to leave without an agreement unless a Parliamentary process is used to prevent that.
Don't also forget that the Withdrawal Agreement is simply a means to move towards another agreement at a later date. It is not the final state of affairs.
From this side of the pond it looks like the Irish backstop is the sticking point (but I accept I may be wrong). I will be interested to see if the Irish border issue will be allowed to tank everything else.
#93
Re: PM Boris
The backstop wouldn't be necessary at all if the EU had decided to allow itself to have agreed to a future trade framework before the UK left but this would have been interpreted as benefiting the UK so it simply could not do it.
On the face of it, agreeing a future arrangement negates the need for a backstop and May's deal could have been passed without problem.
May, from the outset surrendered whatever leverage she had by agreeing the financial settlement outright and setting aside the no-deal as not possible. The EU had the strongest of strong hands and overplayed it to the extent that even remainers could see the flaws in the deal. The Irish see themselves as guardians of the single market and like the EU see no reason to bend to the UK will and history no doubt was front and center in their decision making.
But we are where we are.
Given the way the EU have negotiated I see no reason to believe that the EU would'nt seek to use the backstop to punish the UK and to hold the UK hostage to the backstop refusing to allow the UK to leave unless it agreed to whatever trade arrangement it desired.
#94
Re: PM Boris
To put the argument in it's most basic term is that the EU must not allow the UK to benefit for leaving and is unwilling to amend any of it's own rules to allow this.
The backstop wouldn't be necessary at all if the EU had decided to allow itself to have agreed to a future trade framework before the UK left but this would have been interpreted as benefiting the UK so it simply could not do it.
On the face of it, agreeing a future arrangement negates the need for a backstop and May's deal could have been passed without problem.
May, from the outset surrendered whatever leverage she had by agreeing the financial settlement outright and setting aside the no-deal as not possible. The EU had the strongest of strong hands and overplayed it to the extent that even remainers could see the flaws in the deal. The Irish see themselves as guardians of the single market and like the EU see no reason to bend to the UK will and history no doubt was front and center in their decision making.
But we are where we are.
Given the way the EU have negotiated I see no reason to believe that the EU would'nt seek to use the backstop to punish the UK and to hold the UK hostage to the backstop refusing to allow the UK to leave unless it agreed to whatever trade arrangement it desired.
The backstop wouldn't be necessary at all if the EU had decided to allow itself to have agreed to a future trade framework before the UK left but this would have been interpreted as benefiting the UK so it simply could not do it.
On the face of it, agreeing a future arrangement negates the need for a backstop and May's deal could have been passed without problem.
May, from the outset surrendered whatever leverage she had by agreeing the financial settlement outright and setting aside the no-deal as not possible. The EU had the strongest of strong hands and overplayed it to the extent that even remainers could see the flaws in the deal. The Irish see themselves as guardians of the single market and like the EU see no reason to bend to the UK will and history no doubt was front and center in their decision making.
But we are where we are.
Given the way the EU have negotiated I see no reason to believe that the EU would'nt seek to use the backstop to punish the UK and to hold the UK hostage to the backstop refusing to allow the UK to leave unless it agreed to whatever trade arrangement it desired.
#95
Re: PM Boris
Remember - MPs are not in Westminster simply to parrot the views of their loudest constituents, but to represent the best interests of ALL of their constituents.
MPs cannot help it if their constituents are ill-informed, they still have to do the best for ALL of them. No deal is NOT in anyone's best interests. Correction - it IS in a few people's best interests, but they're not even a fraction of the morons who are demanding it. It is certainly not in the country's best interest.
If no-deal happens, as I think it might, Scotland IndyRef#2 will happen as soon as day follows night, Scotland will vote to leave, then we will have the same backstop argument about a hard EU border with England. Suddenly England v Ireland & the EU will become England v Ireland, Scotland and the EU. And let's not forget Gibraltar, who certainly don't want a hard or an economic border with the EU.
MPs cannot help it if their constituents are ill-informed, they still have to do the best for ALL of them. No deal is NOT in anyone's best interests. Correction - it IS in a few people's best interests, but they're not even a fraction of the morons who are demanding it. It is certainly not in the country's best interest.
If no-deal happens, as I think it might, Scotland IndyRef#2 will happen as soon as day follows night, Scotland will vote to leave, then we will have the same backstop argument about a hard EU border with England. Suddenly England v Ireland & the EU will become England v Ireland, Scotland and the EU. And let's not forget Gibraltar, who certainly don't want a hard or an economic border with the EU.
#96
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Somewhere between Vancouver & St Johns
Posts: 19,849
#97
Re: PM Boris
Since Parliament has not been able to agree what it wants, why should Boris & Co use procedure to enact a massive shift in economic and political direction that suits their personal opinions. We face a decade of trade and legal negotiations should we exit, with a likely outcome of inferior terms, so why the rush to commence when neither Parliament nor the public are certain. It does seem that a renegotiated deal is a non-starter, so at this impasse why not call a general election or a referendum to make a final decision? Reason: because the Brexit fanatics would lose.
#98
Re: PM Boris
In this case we have many MPs who may vote against the expressed will of their constituents because they think they know better thinking that a no-deal will be worse than perpetual subjugation to a corrupt and vindictive EU. The world is full of those who think they know better than the rest of us because they see that it could be worse for them personally... but those who voted to leave maybe don't see it that way.
If a no-deal comes to pass and the scots decide to endorse indyref2 and if the Northern Irish decide to unite with Eire, then so be it, it'll at least be the will of the majority who voted Remain in the referendum, and who knows, it may be the instrument whereby old disputes become resolved to the benefit of all.
Given the track record for predictions of doom by Project Fear immediately following the referendum, none of which have come to pass, I'd be tempted to toss claims of further doom straight into the bin where they belong.
I don't doubt that the EU will do their best to make life hard for the UK but in doing so they'll only make the case for leaving that much more well informed.
#99
Re: PM Boris
Remember - MPs are not in Westminster simply to parrot the views of their loudest constituents, but to represent the best interests of ALL of their constituents.
MPs cannot help it if their constituents are ill-informed, they still have to do the best for ALL of them. No deal is NOT in anyone's best interests. Correction - it IS in a few people's best interests, but they're not even a fraction of the morons who are demanding it. It is certainly not in the country's best interest.
MPs cannot help it if their constituents are ill-informed, they still have to do the best for ALL of them. No deal is NOT in anyone's best interests. Correction - it IS in a few people's best interests, but they're not even a fraction of the morons who are demanding it. It is certainly not in the country's best interest.
If no-deal happens, as I think it might, Scotland IndyRef#2 will happen as soon as day follows night, Scotland will vote to leave, then we will have the same backstop argument about a hard EU border with England. Suddenly England v Ireland & the EU will become England v Ireland, Scotland and the EU. And let's not forget Gibraltar, who certainly don't want a hard or an economic border with the EU.
The Scottish referendum, if it occurs in the next 25 years, will not be resolved prior to the end of October of 2019 and, as you are likely aware, if Scotland leaves the UK, it automatically leaves the EU too, irrespective of Brexit. It will then have to reapply to join the EU and, once it does, the border issue will remain. We all know that the border issue really is a non-issue.
#100
Re: PM Boris
Since Parliament has not been able to agree what it wants, why should Boris & Co use procedure to enact a massive shift in economic and political direction that suits their personal opinions. We face a decade of trade and legal negotiations should we exit, with a likely outcome of inferior terms, so why the rush to commence when neither Parliament nor the public are certain. It does seem that a renegotiated deal is a non-starter, so at this impasse why not call a general election or a referendum to make a final decision? Reason: because the Brexit fanatics would lose.
There is little point to blame Boris and Co. Parliament has ****ed this up.
Last edited by Almost Canadian; Aug 9th 2019 at 12:57 am.
#101
Re: PM Boris
It's characteristic of those who've come second in this particular referendum seek to classify those who've disagreed with them as ill-informed. They must be the case because surely the well informed would never have voted as they did. So having lost, they seek to find other methods by which to impose their will.
In this case we have many MPs who may vote against the expressed will of their constituents because they think they know better thinking that a no-deal will be worse than perpetual subjugation to a corrupt and vindictive EU. The world is full of those who think they know better than the rest of us because they see that it could be worse for them personally... but those who voted to leave maybe don't see it that way.
If a no-deal comes to pass and the scots decide to endorse indyref2 and if the Northern Irish decide to unite with Eire, then so be it, it'll at least be the will of the majority who voted Remain in the referendum, and who knows, it may be the instrument whereby old disputes become resolved to the benefit of all.
Given the track record for predictions of doom by Project Fear immediately following the referendum, none of which have come to pass, I'd be tempted to toss claims of further doom straight into the bin where they belong.
I don't doubt that the EU will do their best to make life hard for the UK but in doing so they'll only make the case for leaving that much more well informed.
In this case we have many MPs who may vote against the expressed will of their constituents because they think they know better thinking that a no-deal will be worse than perpetual subjugation to a corrupt and vindictive EU. The world is full of those who think they know better than the rest of us because they see that it could be worse for them personally... but those who voted to leave maybe don't see it that way.
If a no-deal comes to pass and the scots decide to endorse indyref2 and if the Northern Irish decide to unite with Eire, then so be it, it'll at least be the will of the majority who voted Remain in the referendum, and who knows, it may be the instrument whereby old disputes become resolved to the benefit of all.
Given the track record for predictions of doom by Project Fear immediately following the referendum, none of which have come to pass, I'd be tempted to toss claims of further doom straight into the bin where they belong.
I don't doubt that the EU will do their best to make life hard for the UK but in doing so they'll only make the case for leaving that much more well informed.
#102
Re: PM Boris
There's plenty of evidence that many voters were and are ill informed. You only need ask them to explain their rationale and the misconceptions come flying. As for "Project Fear" it's a clever but insidious catch phrase to further manipulate the ill informed, a bit like Trump's "fake news" rhetoric. How about "Project Poorer" or "Project Worse Off" that's a more realistic moniker.
As an Irish passport holder, I wish you well.
#103
Re: PM Boris
Not all the Tories who voted for Boris Johnson were racist homophobes, some of them were just c***s.
#104
Re: PM Boris
It's a reasonable suggestion, and surely it's only Leave zealots who's be against it.
#105
Re: PM Boris
I don't disagree. It's a ludicrous decision but it is (was) a democratic decision. It is (was) based on what WAS known over 3 years ago. We have come a long way in terms of information and understanding of the actualities of leaving now, so ask yourself this... for such a momentous decision, which will have profound impacts for generations to come, probably including the breakup of the United Kingdom, is it worth taking an extra 10 weeks or so to hold a confirmatory referendum that asks the same question based on what we know now?
It's a reasonable suggestion, and surely it's only Leave zealots who's be against it.
It's a reasonable suggestion, and surely it's only Leave zealots who's be against it.
In any event, a second referendum is so unlikely I suggest it is not worth talking about.
Other than politicians, do most people in the UK really give a shit if it is broken up? They are all separate countries but what effect will residents of England really feel on a day to day basis if Scotland, NI and Wales left the union? It appears to me that, Brexit aside, NI and Wales have far more to lose, than gain, by no longer being part of the union. I am not going to argue with a Scot as to how Scotland will fare post union but I suggest that they would then have to take responsibility for the decisions they make rather than being able to blame everything on those bastards in Westminster!
As an aside, once I had been medically discharged from the Army, the only thing that prevented me from living in Scotland was the fact that, from a legal perspective, transferring my credentials from England & Wales to Scotland was far easier than doing the opposite and I didn't want to have to obtain 2 law degrees.
Last edited by Almost Canadian; Aug 9th 2019 at 1:20 pm.