Letters of consent and travelling with children
May 29th 2014, 12:13 am
#76
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Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
Like I said it's not unworkable in a few cases, it's unworkable in a great many cases.
May 29th 2014, 12:14 am
#77
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Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
I think the fuss is about if CBSA should have the legal right to enquire if a parent (not both) if applicable can and should be questioned if entering or leaving Canada travelling with children.
I have no issue with CBSA having a legal right to do this. At the moment they don't. They act though like they do. This is the point.
Even the poster who suggested and gave a story about their dealings with CBSA complains in an open forum but sought no legal remedy when faced with this situation. Why is this one wonders perhaps their view would not be shared by the majority or it would be a very weak case if pursued bearing in mind the intentions of what took place.
It was a very minor delay, the issue I would say was more with her attitude than the actual stop. I don't believe in making trivial complaints. We all have bad days. So I left it.
So Im guessing those 1300 are quite happy with us and if those who aren't happy then feel free to bring your case to court.
I have no issue with CBSA having a legal right to do this. At the moment they don't. They act though like they do. This is the point.
Even the poster who suggested and gave a story about their dealings with CBSA complains in an open forum but sought no legal remedy when faced with this situation. Why is this one wonders perhaps their view would not be shared by the majority or it would be a very weak case if pursued bearing in mind the intentions of what took place.
It was a very minor delay, the issue I would say was more with her attitude than the actual stop. I don't believe in making trivial complaints. We all have bad days. So I left it.
So Im guessing those 1300 are quite happy with us and if those who aren't happy then feel free to bring your case to court.
http://www.news1130.com/2012/09/03/h...border-guards/
May 29th 2014, 12:21 am
#78
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Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
But that's my point - it is impossible to satisfy CBSA from a legal standpoint depending on the family law of the country they are from.
Did you read post #51?
Not few and far between by any means, it happens to my friend every time she enters. Her son was too young to begin with to be interviewed and now he has a developmental disability and wouldn't be reliable in the slightest if questioned by CBSA.
Pretty much every single unmarried mother who enters from the UK with her child has custody rights - and the father does not. How often does that happen at main POEs - pretty much every day I'm willing to bet.
Which is deeply flawed:
Current British birth certificates don't say that AFAIK, they just list the mother and typically there are no "custody" papers. Simply giving birth out of wedlock typically means the mother has sole custody. What does she produce? There's nothing to be gotten, a lawyer can't vouch for a complete stranger.
The CIC guidance is predicated on the concept that parents automatically have parental rights at birth - which is not always the case.
Like I said, this is not some theory, I've seen it in action. I got called into secondary to confirm what my friend was saying to the inspector (after 20 minutes). "What do you know about the father of this child?" Like I'm supposed to know!
Second time she did get a letter from a solicitor summarizing the law and explaining why it was impossible to get a consent letter, which the inspector stood there and read, but that was quite an expensive letter to get. You can't realistically expect everyone to do that.
It's a flawed procedure, the reason it's not a specific regulation is because it can't be framed in terms of regulations, no regulation could be written taking into account the laws of anywhere someone might come from.
Did you read post #51?
Not few and far between by any means, it happens to my friend every time she enters. Her son was too young to begin with to be interviewed and now he has a developmental disability and wouldn't be reliable in the slightest if questioned by CBSA.
Pretty much every single unmarried mother who enters from the UK with her child has custody rights - and the father does not. How often does that happen at main POEs - pretty much every day I'm willing to bet.
Which is deeply flawed:
Current British birth certificates don't say that AFAIK, they just list the mother and typically there are no "custody" papers. Simply giving birth out of wedlock typically means the mother has sole custody. What does she produce? There's nothing to be gotten, a lawyer can't vouch for a complete stranger.
The CIC guidance is predicated on the concept that parents automatically have parental rights at birth - which is not always the case.
Like I said, this is not some theory, I've seen it in action. I got called into secondary to confirm what my friend was saying to the inspector (after 20 minutes). "What do you know about the father of this child?" Like I'm supposed to know!
Second time she did get a letter from a solicitor summarizing the law and explaining why it was impossible to get a consent letter, which the inspector stood there and read, but that was quite an expensive letter to get. You can't realistically expect everyone to do that.
It's a flawed procedure, the reason it's not a specific regulation is because it can't be framed in terms of regulations, no regulation could be written taking into account the laws of anywhere someone might come from.
Are we perfect then NO we are not but lets not get bogged down with this being a huge problem of people being arrested/detained and refused entry in their hundreds or thousands. Its a very small number.
May 29th 2014, 12:23 am
#79
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Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
I would just like to make it abundantly clear I have no issue with CBSA. I have worked with them closely on several files.
The O/P has indicated throughout though that rules will be bent, the area is grey, what will be done will be done not withstanding the legislation or lack of it, to ensure the safety of the child. While on one hand this is perfectly understandable, the simple, the very simple fact is, CBSA do not have a legal authority to detain you for nothing other than questioning over the legitimacy of your travel with the child where there are no grounds to suspect a criminal offence, or immigration offence as the O/P has indicated has been committed.
This is my point, nothing more. They do so anyway, and this is wrong. Extra point.
The O/P has indicated throughout though that rules will be bent, the area is grey, what will be done will be done not withstanding the legislation or lack of it, to ensure the safety of the child. While on one hand this is perfectly understandable, the simple, the very simple fact is, CBSA do not have a legal authority to detain you for nothing other than questioning over the legitimacy of your travel with the child where there are no grounds to suspect a criminal offence, or immigration offence as the O/P has indicated has been committed.
This is my point, nothing more. They do so anyway, and this is wrong. Extra point.
May 29th 2014, 12:26 am
#80
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Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
I don't think you will ever or can ever get an accurate count on the numbers of people upset by this. Either they can't be bothered, like me, or, they fear retribution the next time they fly, rightly or wrongly. Let's be honest, how many times has the threat of not catching a flight been used to illicit information. Daily as I understand it.
May 29th 2014, 12:33 am
#81
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Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
Are we perfect then NO we are not but lets not get bogged down with this being a huge problem of people being arrested/detained and refused entry in their hundreds or thousands. Its a very small number.
If the CBSA inspector hadn't been a reasonable person who could understand that what he'd been taught was wrong, then there would have been a bigger problem.
Personally I just think it's all a bit kneejerk in response to some publicized cases in Canada of parents kidnapping children. Much like the whole TFW situation that has been blown completely out of proportion by CBC.
To do this properly requires a bit more thought imo.
May 29th 2014, 12:41 am
#82
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Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
I don't think you will ever or can ever get an accurate count on the numbers of people upset by this. Either they can't be bothered, like me, or, they fear retribution the next time they fly, rightly or wrongly. Let's be honest, how many times has the threat of not catching a flight been used to illicit information. Daily as I understand it.
Im happy for our Agency to turn around and say Don't do this as we have very limited powers as that will make my job somewhat easier.
Im sure the officers at EIA would disagree with your observations and yes it probably happens but on a regular basis I will have to disagree. A bit like me saying EPS officers daily search persons or premises without warrants.
All Law Enforcement Agencies have their challenges and none are perfect.
Its not usually the laws being a problem its the individuals they hire who think they can do anything. Do the police always follow the rules No they don't and like us individuals lose their jobs if found to be criminally breaking the law. To say no Agency skirts any rules in grey areas would be naive as we hear about it on a daily basis.
If it is as rampant as you think then don't you think CBSA would be asked to account for their actions on all fronts and be told STOP DOING THIS.
May 29th 2014, 12:53 am
#83
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Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
Do the police always follow the rules No they don't and like us individuals lose their jobs if found to be criminally breaking the law. To say no Agency skirts any rules in grey areas would be naive as we hear about it on a daily basis.
If it is as rampant as you think then don't you think CBSA would be asked to account for their actions on all fronts and be told STOP DOING THIS.
If it is as rampant as you think then don't you think CBSA would be asked to account for their actions on all fronts and be told STOP DOING THIS.
As the 1100 complaints in 6mths article showed people do complain. This was one 3 second search, if you could be bothered I am sure you could find more. Making complaints is one thing, having someone listen, take note, and then change things is something entirely different.
May 29th 2014, 12:53 am
#84
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Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
But it wasn't complicated, she's a single mother entering from the UK with her child. Pretty straightfoward really, until she got grilled in secondary by a CBSA inspector following flawed guidelines.
It's got nothing to do with the inspectors, the guidelines make assumptions about foreign law which are simply wrong. And we're not talking about Burkina Faso, we're talking about the UK.
If the CBSA inspector hadn't been a reasonable person who could understand that what he'd been taught was wrong, then there would have been a bigger problem.
Personally I just think it's all a bit kneejerk in response to some publicized cases in Canada of parents kidnapping children. Much like the whole TFW situation that has been blown completely out of proportion by CBC.
To do this properly requires a bit more thought imo.
It's got nothing to do with the inspectors, the guidelines make assumptions about foreign law which are simply wrong. And we're not talking about Burkina Faso, we're talking about the UK.
If the CBSA inspector hadn't been a reasonable person who could understand that what he'd been taught was wrong, then there would have been a bigger problem.
Personally I just think it's all a bit kneejerk in response to some publicized cases in Canada of parents kidnapping children. Much like the whole TFW situation that has been blown completely out of proportion by CBC.
To do this properly requires a bit more thought imo.
Is she or the child a Canadian Citizen or PR?
If not is she visiting relatives/friends in Canada and are they here to meet her.
Does she have contact numbers of grand parents or other people who would know of her travels etc
Has she ever been refused entry?
In your words she got a grilling but define a grilling as opposed to be asking pertinent questions.
We have cameras and audio if necessary and Ive seen interviews where someone said they were interrogated which is so far from the truth but hey it makes a good story.
Im all for the law to be changed and procedures reviewed and a better understanding but its what we have at the moment and if necessary will stop checking on these situations BUT I don't want to hear the public say CBSA are not doing enough to interdict potential abducted children.
So which way do you want it checks or no checks? I'm fine with either.
May 29th 2014, 12:55 am
#85
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Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
Of course there are. Here are some more figures, rude behaviour, unnecessary delays, lengthy interrogations, 1100 complaints in 6 months. You could do this forever.
http://www.news1130.com/2012/09/03/h...border-guards/
http://www.news1130.com/2012/09/03/h...border-guards/
I was waiting for that one shame you missed this bit from the articleThe report on the revamped complaints system says .0025 per cent of all travellers complain about the service from its employees, adding, “this rate will be used in future media calls as it puts the Canada Border Services Agency in a positive light.”
So you willing to post the EPS equivalent?
May 29th 2014, 1:10 am
#86
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Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
I was waiting for that one shame you missed this bit from the articleThe report on the revamped complaints system says .0025 per cent of all travellers complain about the service from its employees, adding, “this rate will be used in future media calls as it puts the Canada Border Services Agency in a positive light.”
So you willing to post the EPS equivalent?
93% of people seem satisfied from latest 2014 survey.
http://www.edmontonpolice.ca/News/Su...ionSurvey.aspx
When you internalise complaints and investigate yourself not too difficult to look good.
http://www.rcinet.ca/en/2014/03/06/b...rights-groups/
May 29th 2014, 1:25 am
#87
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Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
I am not remotely interested in defending EPS, and have not tried to in this link, nor have I suggested we are in someway superior, this is deflecting from the issue. If you look at old posts of mine, which I understand will be very boring, but anyway, you will see I think surveys and stats are generally bollox. But as you want it:-
93% of people seem satisfied from latest 2014 survey.
http://www.edmontonpolice.ca/News/Su...ionSurvey.aspx
When you internalise complaints and investigate yourself not too difficult to look good.
http://www.rcinet.ca/en/2014/03/06/b...rights-groups/
93% of people seem satisfied from latest 2014 survey.
http://www.edmontonpolice.ca/News/Su...ionSurvey.aspx
When you internalise complaints and investigate yourself not too difficult to look good.
http://www.rcinet.ca/en/2014/03/06/b...rights-groups/
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resourc.../enf21-eng.pdf
Yes from your eyes there might be some sections you disagree with or what is suggested but this is what we follow.
Is it your view that we should check or not seeing as some view the legislation as flawed. Concentrate on Canadian Citizens, Permanent Residents or Status Indians only as this is where the bulk of any problem area would occur on a legal issue.
May 29th 2014, 1:49 am
#88
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Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
Im all for a good debate on this issue and you have your opinion and I have mine. Have you read in full the CIC link as posted below
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resourc.../enf21-eng.pdf
Yes from your eyes there might be some sections you disagree with or what is suggested but this is what we follow.
Is it your view that we should check or not seeing as some view the legislation as flawed. Concentrate on Canadian Citizens, Permanent Residents or Status Indians only as this is where the bulk of any problem area would occur on a legal issue.
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resourc.../enf21-eng.pdf
Yes from your eyes there might be some sections you disagree with or what is suggested but this is what we follow.
Is it your view that we should check or not seeing as some view the legislation as flawed. Concentrate on Canadian Citizens, Permanent Residents or Status Indians only as this is where the bulk of any problem area would occur on a legal issue.
May 29th 2014, 1:56 am
#89
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Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
The protection and recovery of children at risk is part of Citizenship and Immigration Canada’s commitment to:
ensuring and securing the best interest of a child;
facilitating family reunification;
and
protecting the health and safety of Canadians and maintaining the security of Canadian society.
Simple.
May 29th 2014, 1:59 am
#90
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Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
We do. There again if a parent co-operated and didn't get upset when asked pertinent questions then that would be simple as well and understand why we do it as opposed to challenging it.
The protection and recovery of children at risk is part of Citizenship and Immigration Canada’s commitment to:
ensuring and securing the best interest of a child;
facilitating family reunification;
and
protecting the health and safety of Canadians and maintaining the security of Canadian society.
Simple.
The protection and recovery of children at risk is part of Citizenship and Immigration Canada’s commitment to:
ensuring and securing the best interest of a child;
facilitating family reunification;
and
protecting the health and safety of Canadians and maintaining the security of Canadian society.
Simple.