rae

Ultimately what we come to is noble cause corruption, the end justifying the means, this is the basis of all your arguments. When you enter this realm you risk losing all your moral and ethical reasoning. Do we torture confessions out of people? Do we imprison people indefinitely without charge or reason? What is that saying... when they came for my neighbor I did nothing, etc, and then they came for me. No thanks. Don't want to police like that or live like that.

FirstRatofftheShipUK

Just what we need around here...another Philosophy graduate.

The whole point of statutory discretion in law or policy enforcement is just that, its discretionary.

What a rambling thread.

Siouxie

When my sons Father and I separated we agreed that our son would spend all his school holidays with his Dad as he still lived abroad and we had moved back to the UK.

Both of us signed an agreement which was ratified by the court. Each time he was due to fly we would both sign (and have witnessed) our agreement to him being out of the country between those dates and a copy would be kept in his passport. Failure to comply with the return date without agreement would have meant an alert being put out.

We both felt that this safeguarded our son and ourselves. After my sons Father died, I kept a copy of his death certificate with me if I wished to take my son abroad.

I really don't understand what the fuss is about.

Former Lancastrian

I think the fuss is about if CBSA should have the legal right to enquire if a parent (not both) if applicable can and should be questioned if entering or leaving Canada travelling with children.
One poster is making arguments against this procedure and several others are saying its fine. Others are pointing out that due to other countries issues its not always that simple as getting a letter or court document.
The number of complicated cases are very few compared to the thousands if not millions of times CBSA encounter this every year with probably over 98% being resolved after a few minutes.
Even the poster who suggested and gave a story about their dealings with CBSA complains in an open forum but sought no legal remedy when faced with this situation. Why is this one wonders perhaps their view would not be shared by the majority or it would be a very weak case if pursued bearing in mind the intentions of what took place.
Im surprised at this as the objects clearly state

Program objectives
The protection and recovery of children at risk is part of Citizenship and Immigration Canada’s commitment to

ensuring and securing the best interest of a child;
facilitating family reunification; and
protecting the health and safety of Canadians and maintaining the security of Canadian society.
Since the OMC program began in 1986, over 6,000 missing children have been found. Customs and immigration officers alone have reunited 1,300 children with their parents or legal guardians.

So Im guessing those 1300 are quite happy with us and if those who aren't happy then feel free to bring your case to court.

Dashie

Personally, I have no problem giving or carrying a letter if it makes things smoother and easier.

I'm curious though - what would be the case if the child is traveling with both parents, but one has a different name? Or both, if names had changed.

Former Lancastrian

CBSA is only interested in is the child at risk or potentially being abducted.
We deal with hundreds of cases like this every day and we accept parents and children have different names or from other relationships and in the vast majority of cases documentation or questioning results in it being a non issue.

Gozit

There is all this talk of children traveling with 1 out of 2 parents... What of a teenager my age traveling alone. What sort of questioning would avail to that, whether by CBSA or any EU border guards? Would I need to carry a letter of some sort or would both my passports suffice as I have right of abode in both Canada and the EU... ?

Greenhill

If you're asked by a CBSA guard "Do you have chocolate?" you're basically doomed if you do and doomed if you don't.

At this point, it's probably best to throw the chocolate bar on the floor, to distract the guard, then make a run for it.

Dashie

I would have thought you would need to follow the guidelines for unaccompanied minors.

Oakvillian

I would have been mortified to have been treated as an unaccompanied minor at 15. That's for little kids and preteens...

To Gozitanguy, There shouldn't be any issues for a 15-year-old travelling alone with appropriate documentation. As Canada has no exit controls, CBSA won't trouble you on leaving the country (and your Maltese passport should ensure the airline doesn't make a fuss), and on your way back in at the end of the summer, as FL has said, they can't do much to keep you if you're a Canadian citizen returning home. Might be worthwhile, for the sake of belt-and-braces, to have a letter from your parents explaining that you go with their blessing - although presumably they'll be coming to the airport to wave you off so will be able to talk to airline staff at check-in if necessary.

rae

Actually I have been a police officer for 18yrs and have been an Instructor in Law with the Home Office at a National Police training college, Major Crimes Detective, Forensic Interviewer and U/C operator amongst other things.
Noble cause corruption is well documented, not something philosophical, it happens and training to counter against it is included in major case management.
Discretion is vital in policing, its name though should not be abused to cover up bad/illegal practice.

Steve_

But that's my point - it is impossible to satisfy CBSA from a legal standpoint depending on the family law of the country they are from.

Did you read post #51?

Not few and far between by any means, it happens to my friend every time she enters. Her son was too young to begin with to be interviewed and now he has a developmental disability and wouldn't be reliable in the slightest if questioned by CBSA.

Pretty much every single unmarried mother who enters from the UK with her child has custody rights - and the father does not. How often does that happen at main POEs - pretty much every day I'm willing to bet.

Which is deeply flawed:

Current British birth certificates don't say that AFAIK, they just list the mother and typically there are no "custody" papers. Simply giving birth out of wedlock typically means the mother has sole custody. What does she produce? There's nothing to be gotten, a lawyer can't vouch for a complete stranger.

The CIC guidance is predicated on the concept that parents automatically have parental rights at birth - which is not always the case.

Like I said, this is not some theory, I've seen it in action. I got called into secondary to confirm what my friend was saying to the inspector (after 20 minutes). "What do you know about the father of this child?" Like I'm supposed to know!

Second time she did get a letter from a solicitor summarizing the law and explaining why it was impossible to get a consent letter, which the inspector stood there and read, but that was quite an expensive letter to get. You can't realistically expect everyone to do that.

It's a flawed procedure, the reason it's not a specific regulation is because it can't be framed in terms of regulations, no regulation could be written taking into account the laws of anywhere someone might come from.

Steve_

Which reminds me - my friend's child has the last name of the father, not her last name. Once again an old-fashioned assumption that children born out of wedlock get the mother's name causes her problems. Automatic assumption the father must be somehow still in the picture. Nope.

Gozit

Oakvillian is right ; thats for kids 12 and under usually, and set by the airline, not the immigration people. The immigration people can't detain me in the country / prevent me from leaving / entering a country because i am an unaccompanied minor. If i'm with no one i'm obviously leaving of my own will


It actually depends on the airline whether they would let you travel alone at 15. But most are pretty good and i'll be 16 by the time I go so that will make it even easier apparently.

Thanks

Gozit

If they wanted they could always change the name.