Letters of consent and travelling with children
#61
Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
Unfortunately policing or other law enforcements are bound by the laws they enact
"Unfortunately"!!!!!! good grief. No it should be fortunately otherwise we have cowboys doing what they want where they want to who they want.
How do we feel about the Police conducting their Check Stops over the long weekends or Christmas period. The intention is to catch drunk drivers.
Without these stops officers patrolling the streets at 2.30 am have to find a reason to pull a vehicle over be it containing one person or 4 persons and the easiest way to do this is by following the vehicle and hoping the driver commits a moving vehicle offence of which there are many.
Which is all perfectly legitimate as you would either view a moving violation, or, gain reasonable suspicion due to a driving pattern.
How many charges have been thrown out of court by Law Enforcement Agencies not following procedures e.g. having a search warrant etc.
Lots, and this is a good thing, as police are being held accountable and not being allowed to go on fishing expeditions.
As we are the only ones working at the Border then do you care about child abduction and want this type of offence to be stopped?
Yes of course, but this is not the point. See below.
We process over 90 million passengers per year yet Im betting very few cases would ever be challenged when we carry out this type of examination.
Just because people do not complain does not make it right. I would counter the main reason no-one says anything is they want to get onto their current flight and don't want to be flagged as a problem for future travel.
Ask why so many Amber Alerts are issued each year within Canada and the reasons why they were issued.
I personally issued an Amber Alert two years ago and it had nothing to do with an International child abduction.
So when its your kid who gets abducted you would be OK with no Law Enforcement Agencies being on the lookout for them and there has been little time for a warrant to be issued?
"Unfortunately"!!!!!! good grief. No it should be fortunately otherwise we have cowboys doing what they want where they want to who they want.
How do we feel about the Police conducting their Check Stops over the long weekends or Christmas period. The intention is to catch drunk drivers.
Without these stops officers patrolling the streets at 2.30 am have to find a reason to pull a vehicle over be it containing one person or 4 persons and the easiest way to do this is by following the vehicle and hoping the driver commits a moving vehicle offence of which there are many.
Which is all perfectly legitimate as you would either view a moving violation, or, gain reasonable suspicion due to a driving pattern.
How many charges have been thrown out of court by Law Enforcement Agencies not following procedures e.g. having a search warrant etc.
Lots, and this is a good thing, as police are being held accountable and not being allowed to go on fishing expeditions.
As we are the only ones working at the Border then do you care about child abduction and want this type of offence to be stopped?
Yes of course, but this is not the point. See below.
We process over 90 million passengers per year yet Im betting very few cases would ever be challenged when we carry out this type of examination.
Just because people do not complain does not make it right. I would counter the main reason no-one says anything is they want to get onto their current flight and don't want to be flagged as a problem for future travel.
Ask why so many Amber Alerts are issued each year within Canada and the reasons why they were issued.
I personally issued an Amber Alert two years ago and it had nothing to do with an International child abduction.
So when its your kid who gets abducted you would be OK with no Law Enforcement Agencies being on the lookout for them and there has been little time for a warrant to be issued?
#62
Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
Ultimately what we come to is noble cause corruption, the end justifying the means, this is the basis of all your arguments. When you enter this realm you risk losing all your moral and ethical reasoning. Do we torture confessions out of people? Do we imprison people indefinitely without charge or reason? What is that saying... when they came for my neighbor I did nothing, etc, and then they came for me. No thanks. Don't want to police like that or live like that.
The whole point of statutory discretion in law or policy enforcement is just that, its discretionary.
What a rambling thread.
#63
Banned
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: SW Ontario
Posts: 19,879
Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
When my sons Father and I separated we agreed that our son would spend all his school holidays with his Dad as he still lived abroad and we had moved back to the UK.
Both of us signed an agreement which was ratified by the court. Each time he was due to fly we would both sign (and have witnessed) our agreement to him being out of the country between those dates and a copy would be kept in his passport. Failure to comply with the return date without agreement would have meant an alert being put out.
We both felt that this safeguarded our son and ourselves. After my sons Father died, I kept a copy of his death certificate with me if I wished to take my son abroad.
I really don't understand what the fuss is about.
Both of us signed an agreement which was ratified by the court. Each time he was due to fly we would both sign (and have witnessed) our agreement to him being out of the country between those dates and a copy would be kept in his passport. Failure to comply with the return date without agreement would have meant an alert being put out.
We both felt that this safeguarded our son and ourselves. After my sons Father died, I kept a copy of his death certificate with me if I wished to take my son abroad.
I really don't understand what the fuss is about.
Last edited by Siouxie; May 28th 2014 at 4:09 am.
#64
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Somewhere between Vancouver & St Johns
Posts: 19,846
Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
I think the fuss is about if CBSA should have the legal right to enquire if a parent (not both) if applicable can and should be questioned if entering or leaving Canada travelling with children.
One poster is making arguments against this procedure and several others are saying its fine. Others are pointing out that due to other countries issues its not always that simple as getting a letter or court document.
The number of complicated cases are very few compared to the thousands if not millions of times CBSA encounter this every year with probably over 98% being resolved after a few minutes.
Even the poster who suggested and gave a story about their dealings with CBSA complains in an open forum but sought no legal remedy when faced with this situation. Why is this one wonders perhaps their view would not be shared by the majority or it would be a very weak case if pursued bearing in mind the intentions of what took place.
Im surprised at this as the objects clearly state
Program objectives
The protection and recovery of children at risk is part of Citizenship and Immigration Canada’s commitment to
ensuring and securing the best interest of a child;
facilitating family reunification; and
protecting the health and safety of Canadians and maintaining the security of Canadian society.
Since the OMC program began in 1986, over 6,000 missing children have been found. Customs and immigration officers alone have reunited 1,300 children with their parents or legal guardians.
So Im guessing those 1300 are quite happy with us and if those who aren't happy then feel free to bring your case to court.
One poster is making arguments against this procedure and several others are saying its fine. Others are pointing out that due to other countries issues its not always that simple as getting a letter or court document.
The number of complicated cases are very few compared to the thousands if not millions of times CBSA encounter this every year with probably over 98% being resolved after a few minutes.
Even the poster who suggested and gave a story about their dealings with CBSA complains in an open forum but sought no legal remedy when faced with this situation. Why is this one wonders perhaps their view would not be shared by the majority or it would be a very weak case if pursued bearing in mind the intentions of what took place.
Im surprised at this as the objects clearly state
Program objectives
The protection and recovery of children at risk is part of Citizenship and Immigration Canada’s commitment to
ensuring and securing the best interest of a child;
facilitating family reunification; and
protecting the health and safety of Canadians and maintaining the security of Canadian society.
Since the OMC program began in 1986, over 6,000 missing children have been found. Customs and immigration officers alone have reunited 1,300 children with their parents or legal guardians.
So Im guessing those 1300 are quite happy with us and if those who aren't happy then feel free to bring your case to court.
#65
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,348
Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
Personally, I have no problem giving or carrying a letter if it makes things smoother and easier.
I'm curious though - what would be the case if the child is traveling with both parents, but one has a different name? Or both, if names had changed.
I'm curious though - what would be the case if the child is traveling with both parents, but one has a different name? Or both, if names had changed.
#66
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Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Somewhere between Vancouver & St Johns
Posts: 19,846
Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
We deal with hundreds of cases like this every day and we accept parents and children have different names or from other relationships and in the vast majority of cases documentation or questioning results in it being a non issue.
#67
Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
There is all this talk of children traveling with 1 out of 2 parents... What of a teenager my age traveling alone. What sort of questioning would avail to that, whether by CBSA or any EU border guards? Would I need to carry a letter of some sort or would both my passports suffice as I have right of abode in both Canada and the EU... ?
#68
Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
If you're asked by a CBSA guard "Do you have chocolate?" you're basically doomed if you do and doomed if you don't.
At this point, it's probably best to throw the chocolate bar on the floor, to distract the guard, then make a run for it.
At this point, it's probably best to throw the chocolate bar on the floor, to distract the guard, then make a run for it.
What of a teenager my age traveling alone. What sort of questioning would avail to that, whether by CBSA or any EU border guards? Would I need to carry a letter of some sort or would both my passports suffice as I have right of abode in both Canada and the EU... ?
#69
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 1,348
Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
There is all this talk of children traveling with 1 out of 2 parents... What of a teenager my age traveling alone. What sort of questioning would avail to that, whether by CBSA or any EU border guards? Would I need to carry a letter of some sort or would both my passports suffice as I have right of abode in both Canada and the EU... ?
#70
Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
To Gozitanguy, There shouldn't be any issues for a 15-year-old travelling alone with appropriate documentation. As Canada has no exit controls, CBSA won't trouble you on leaving the country (and your Maltese passport should ensure the airline doesn't make a fuss), and on your way back in at the end of the summer, as FL has said, they can't do much to keep you if you're a Canadian citizen returning home. Might be worthwhile, for the sake of belt-and-braces, to have a letter from your parents explaining that you go with their blessing - although presumably they'll be coming to the airport to wave you off so will be able to talk to airline staff at check-in if necessary.
#71
Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
Noble cause corruption is well documented, not something philosophical, it happens and training to counter against it is included in major case management.
Discretion is vital in policing, its name though should not be abused to cover up bad/illegal practice.
#72
Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
Im guessing these types of cases are very few and lets not forget we can also interview the child with the parent out of earshot who might negate or confirm suspicions of abduction.
Not few and far between by any means, it happens to my friend every time she enters. Her son was too young to begin with to be interviewed and now he has a developmental disability and wouldn't be reliable in the slightest if questioned by CBSA.
Pretty much every single unmarried mother who enters from the UK with her child has custody rights - and the father does not. How often does that happen at main POEs - pretty much every day I'm willing to bet.
CIC even have a manual about all this so rather than me post answers read it yourselves
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resourc.../enf21-eng.pdf
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resourc.../enf21-eng.pdf
Officers should be aware that a letter of permission from an absent parent is not required where either of the following documents are presented: a birth certificate listing the father as ‘unknown’ or custody papers indicating that the travelling parent has sole custody
The CIC guidance is predicated on the concept that parents automatically have parental rights at birth - which is not always the case.
Like I said, this is not some theory, I've seen it in action. I got called into secondary to confirm what my friend was saying to the inspector (after 20 minutes). "What do you know about the father of this child?" Like I'm supposed to know!
Second time she did get a letter from a solicitor summarizing the law and explaining why it was impossible to get a consent letter, which the inspector stood there and read, but that was quite an expensive letter to get. You can't realistically expect everyone to do that.
It's a flawed procedure, the reason it's not a specific regulation is because it can't be framed in terms of regulations, no regulation could be written taking into account the laws of anywhere someone might come from.
#73
Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
Which reminds me - my friend's child has the last name of the father, not her last name. Once again an old-fashioned assumption that children born out of wedlock get the mother's name causes her problems. Automatic assumption the father must be somehow still in the picture. Nope.
#74
Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
It actually depends on the airline whether they would let you travel alone at 15. But most are pretty good and i'll be 16 by the time I go so that will make it even easier apparently.
I would have been mortified to have been treated as an unaccompanied minor at 15. That's for little kids and preteens...
To Gozitanguy, There shouldn't be any issues for a 15-year-old travelling alone with appropriate documentation. As Canada has no exit controls, CBSA won't trouble you on leaving the country (and your Maltese passport should ensure the airline doesn't make a fuss), and on your way back in at the end of the summer, as FL has said, they can't do much to keep you if you're a Canadian citizen returning home. Might be worthwhile, for the sake of belt-and-braces, to have a letter from your parents explaining that you go with their blessing - although presumably they'll be coming to the airport to wave you off so will be able to talk to airline staff at check-in if necessary.
To Gozitanguy, There shouldn't be any issues for a 15-year-old travelling alone with appropriate documentation. As Canada has no exit controls, CBSA won't trouble you on leaving the country (and your Maltese passport should ensure the airline doesn't make a fuss), and on your way back in at the end of the summer, as FL has said, they can't do much to keep you if you're a Canadian citizen returning home. Might be worthwhile, for the sake of belt-and-braces, to have a letter from your parents explaining that you go with their blessing - although presumably they'll be coming to the airport to wave you off so will be able to talk to airline staff at check-in if necessary.
#75
Re: Letters of consent and travelling with children
Which reminds me - my friend's child has the last name of the father, not her last name. Once again an old-fashioned assumption that children born out of wedlock get the mother's name causes her problems. Automatic assumption the father must be somehow still in the picture. Nope.
If they wanted they could always change the name.