given this situation what would you do?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23957605


A British officer captured during World War I was granted leave to visit his dying mother on one condition - that he return, a historian has discovered.

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

I'd have gone back too. Bratwurst mit Senf were way better in German WW1 prison camps than anything you could get in Britain.

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

For myself, I don't think German cuisine would be that enticing, although I have fond memories of Hamburg circa 1972.

(But I think the Brits have improved their cuisine since i left in 1962)

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

What a wonderful story, I regret to say that I looked at it at work, and have had to pop to the loo to have a little snivel! What perfectly honourable and decent human beings, what a long way from our present day horrible theatres of nastiness.

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

Honourable and decent people still exist.

This thread reminds me of something told to me by my now late mother, who grew up in the north of Scotland during WWII. A young German POW was considered to be so low risk that he was allowed to roam. He did lots of stuff for people. Peter was known to all. He stayed when the war ended and became a much-loved and respected member of the local society for the rest of his life.

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

Good anecdote. He probably stayed for the cuisine too ;)

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

My granddad (and my dad after him) were market gardeners near Newcastle. There were a couple of Italian POWs who were assigned to helping out with the farm work and they both stayed on after the war, one for life.

He was my "Uncle" Luigi.

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

Lots of German and Italian prisoners worked on farms in the UK as did British and allied prisoners in Germany.
As to wether this officer did the right thing or not, approximately 16000 British prisoners died in captivity during WW1 the majority from wounds recieved in action prior to capture although there were cases of starvation mainly in the other ranks camps. He would have experienced slightly better conditions in an officers camp but it would have been no Stalag Butlins.
Honour meant a lot to these guys and I'm sure in this case his word was his bond. These were still the days of "parole" were a captive officer could keep his sword or sidearm if he gave his word to his captors that he had capitulated.

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

Was it really about honour? It sounds as though he was obliged to return if he was not to create a harsh precedent for his fellow soldiers. It could also be that he assumed that by going back, the Germans would be suitably impressed and discharge him from being a prisoner. I'm speculating as I find it the notion of returning purely out of honour as somewhat romantic. The fact that he tries to escape the next day suggests that his motivations were pragmatic. Regardless, he was obviously a brave soldier and honest man.

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

Sticks and stones, innit?. The winner gets to write the history.

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

Romantic maybe but people had different values in those days. As to attempting to escape it was still every officers duty to attempt to escape or at least hinder the enemy at every given opportunity.

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

Yes agreed back then there was still a code of honour to be upheld on both sides and being an officer and a gentlemen back then meant something..so it does not surprise me one bit.

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

I suppose the young German men arriving at Oradour "back then" had a different interpretation of "honour"...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/de...n-in-time.html

I still think we're romanticising the past here.

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

Well, this is a story of a truly honourable man. I'm afraid no one would be this honourable in similar circumstances nowadays...

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

Have you ever served in the Armed Forces?

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

"Back then" - back when, exactly?

Different war, different social structure (largely as a result of what happened after the first war), different quantum of zealotry and fanaticism. I don't think it's even remotely possible to compare the actions of a Schutzstaffel unit in 1944 to the code of honour amongst officers (on both sides of the fighting) in 1914.

The WWI prisoner story - and the honour-driven motivation behind it - is perfectly believable given its context at the very beginning of the war - less than a month after the declaration of war, in fact. At that time ideals of honour and chivalry amongst officers, built up through regimental folklore and tradition, were still very much a part of the fabric of military life. For sure, it had all become rather more sordid by the middle of 1915, and even more so through the remaining three years of hostilities.

Society was already beginning to undergo fundamental change at the beginning of the war (look at what happened in Russia, what was begun in 1905 and was accelerated throughout wartime to its culmination in 1917). Cynicism and a questioning of the moral authority of (largely upper-class) politicians, generals and admirals increased dramatically after the first year of fighting. Wilfred Owen's Dulce et Decorum poem is as fine an example of sacrcasm at the expense of authority as you can find. "That old lie" was no longer enough, one would not have expected the same application of an outdated honour code in August 1918 as had been exhibited in August 1914.

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

That's a bit of a non-sequitur, AC. What has an individual's personal experience of the Armed Forces to do with an opinion on a 100-year-old story of honourable behaviour?

Nobody would have the opportunity to prove honourable or otherwise in these circumstances today. The circumstances wouldn't arise. And (it says in the BBC article) it didn't again in the Great War either, largely because the British politicians denied the same compassionate parole to German prisoners held in the UK.

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

Interesting points which seem to support the notion that honour in the early part of the 20th century ("back then" in the parlance) was not as pervasive as some of us now believe it was. And what we are construing as "honour" may simply have been following orders/protocol because the alternative (of punishment or destitution) would be harsh. I think it's a case of rose tinted specs. Honour and chivalry still exist in the military and in human nature. In a hundred years times tales of honour will be told about soldiers' actions in Afghanistan.

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

I was enquiring as to whether this opinion was based upon personal experience of how "honourable" officers in the Armed Forces are now, or something else. As s/he has responded, we won't know.

I propose that, if the opportunity was presented to an officer today the officer, knowing that others may be punished for his/her failure to return, would return. This is based upon my experience of serving in the Armed Forces. I appreciate that others may have a different opinion.

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

The legal system has something similar to this its called a promise to appear or bail and look how well that works :lol:

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

I don't think it supports that notion at all: quite the opposite, in fact. You were comparing the actions of a young officer in August 1914 to those of a group of Nazis in 1944. I was simply pointing out that that wasn't a very valid comparison: notions of honour and chivalry had changed in the intervening 30 years. Which "back then" were you referring to - the outbreak of the first world war or the latter stages of the second?

Social structures and societal mores are constantly shifting. Would the same fuss have been made about the (despicable, by today's standards) chanting of the St Mary's undergrads in frosh week of 1983? I suspect not: that's progress. It's also the time difference between the two incidents noted in this thread.

Of course honour and chivalry still exist, within and beyond the military. Stories of valour, self-sacrifice, "doing the right thing" abound. But the benchmarks against which we judge such behaviour or actions have moved.

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

people are frequently bailed "on their own recognizance" or whatever the phrase is. In the vast majority of cases it works very well.

Honour among thieves, perhaps? ;)

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

How do we know that "the notions of honour and chivalry had changed in the intervening years"? Especially when notions of honour and chivalry persist to this day (particularly in the military). From your earlier post you even seem to suggest that a breakdown in the honour code occurred between 1914 and 1918 which given the nebulous concept of honour is rather a precise a date range. I don't see a problem with using a later atrocity to refute the general assertion that honour used to exist ("back then") but no longer exists, because I don't except that banal assertion.

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

You're dead right, that would be a banal assertion. And it's one that hasn't been made by me, or indeed anyone else on this thread except yourself.

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

So what is the implication of CM's comment? That honour codes persist??

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

that the values by which honourable behaviour was judged in 1914 differ from those by which honourable behaviour is judged today. By the middle of the war, with general conscription and all, officers were no longer all "gentlemen" in the way that term was understood in the 19th century (when commissions were frequently granted to those younger sons of noble families who didn't take holy orders...) and was still mostly prevalent at the outbreak of WWI.

In today's armed forces, one doesn't rely on a code of honour. One has rules of engagement and 24-hour news media to deal with instead. That doesn't mean that honour is dead, of course.

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

Really? All that? The words "back then there was still..." imply that something that used to exist no longer exists. If you were a 19th century man you might concede this truth ;)

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

My point was that society has changed enormously in the last 100 years..values and morals are different now..would soldiers blindly go over the top and walk to certain death today?...certainly they wouldn't..rules of engagement have changed.

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

Are suicide bombers soldiers?

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

I'm finding all this "latest bit" thing a bit confusing..my dad was born in 1910 and he remembered his nanny saying goodbye to lads in 1914....my Dad was in the next one he lost his brother in the Battle of Britain, but he himself bailed out, at the end and received the DFM. I know my Dads rules of engagement changed...he knows he should not have bombed Dresden

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

No, suicide bombers are deranged fanatics. The only thread bare comparison to soldiers are maybe to Kamikaze who were mostly willing to give there life for there country and emporer. Even Kamikaze though didn't masqurade as harmless individuals before pulling the pin surrounded by unsuspecting (usually innocent) people.
However, what your question has to do with the main thread is beyond me. Stirring the pot again, eh?

Re: given this situation what would you do?
 

Hindsight is a great thing. At the start of 1945 bombing Dresden was a sound military operation. Even Churchill supported the operation and only distanced himself from it when the civilian casualty figures began to appear unacceptable.
In my mind, your dad did no wrong.