Re: Gibraltar
 

No, they have the choice to apply for immigration to many countries around the world as long as they the requirements each state has put in place to meet best the needs of their society.

Re: Gibraltar
 

I am saying that it will have a minimal affect upon the population of the UK, such that it simply isn't worth worrying about.

However, if I was working again as a carpenter, and if I was being undercut by workers from other countries that were willing to live in a situation that I wasn't and were sending money back to their families in less affluent countries, I would be happy with Brexit.

Re: Gibraltar
 

The point about Brexit (in my opinion) is that it fundamentally changes UK citizens rights. It takes something (or several things away). You might decide that those rights "simply aren't bothering about" but that's not my opinion.

Re: Gibraltar
 

Sure. I accept it takes some things away that some may believe are important to them. Just as it gives some things to others that are important to them, but which others don't think are important to them.

A bit like our government here: We will impose a carbon tax upon you as we want to you use less carbon; then will we remove the tax break you get for using public transport thereby, one assumes, attempting to reduce one's carbon.

Re: Gibraltar
 

How you trade and who you trade with is all a question of economics. Admittedly the EU is closer to the UK than the US or Canada... but...
If distance was that important why do baked beans cost so much less in the UK than Canada?
'Tesco: Baked beans are grown in America, then shipped to Italy, before they make it to our shops in the UK.' https://www.eathappyproject.com/reso...do-beans-grow/
It's clear that italian baked bean suppliers will not be happy with tarrifs and there will be a great many like this on both sides lobbying for common sense.
But of course, as I keep saying, we are dealing with bureacrats and politicians here so common sense will play no part in the brexit negotiations as the tiff that gave rise to the current thread exemplifies.

Re: Gibraltar
 

A call for a return to imperial measurements?? thats not a saracstic joke?really??? When i lived in the UK, i was tired of all the European interference, bureaucracy and petty laws imposed on the UK, but for the UK to go back to the imperial unit of measurement is madness. Im all for national identity and patriotism but thats really is just preposterous.

With the exception of the US the world is now metric and the US will eventually switch (no idea when) but they will.

Some post brexit suggestions and actions will be good for Britain with regards to getting its identity back but that wouldnt even make it into a serious debate..... would it....? :eek::eek:

Re: Gibraltar
 

Which petty laws, European interference,and bureaucracy were you thinking of that so tired you?

Re: Gibraltar
 

The bananas that weren't curved enough!

Re: Gibraltar
 

I can. A free trade agreement is not the same as a single market.

Re: Gibraltar
 

True, but given the UK kept sterling, it's participation is somewhat analogous.

Re: Gibraltar
 

Any real examples?

Re: Gibraltar
 

But that wasn't the topic at hand.

The question asked was why, when Canada had a trade agreement with the EU, they "didn't allow unbridled movement of workers between the two?"

I added the notes to the map to show there were some reasonable, relatively long standing, associations already linking European countries with each other that would explain why people were already living and working in each others' countries with a whole bunch of similar rights - including many about standards and equality.

Re: Gibraltar
 

Since when did serious debate have anything to do with it?

You mentioned the myth about the bananas. That's the level of debate that cause anti-EU feeling. Just like the myth lie about the £350m.

And stuff like 'taking back control' and then when the British judges made their ruling under British law in a British court apparently that wasn't the kind of control meant. :rolleyes:

Re: Gibraltar
 

No the Imperial Measurements thing was not a sarcastic joke. I don't "do" that kind of stuff:

sorry that link doesn't work. Try this or google Simon Heffer Imperial measurements

http://toptwitter.com/uk/Simon-Heffer

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...mperial-units/

Re: Gibraltar
 

Cucumbers.

Re: Gibraltar
 

That's the rhetoric that some of the more rational Brexiters are expounding, and who knows, maybe in a couple of decades Britain will be a Singapore-style powerhouse in an even more integrated world. It's a nice vision, especially as we have already achieved that once (in the 19th century). However, there are plenty of reasons to doubt that far flung trade will not replace European trade, not least because there is an established strong correlation between trade and geographical proximity. There's also the weaker trade negotiating status by not being part of a block: we're simply less important, despite the politicians bravado.

Re: Gibraltar
 

Nope, still not real.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromyth

Re: Gibraltar
 

Are you seriously suggesting that, post Brexit, the UK will not trade with EU members? Have you told France, Germany et al about this?

This may come as a surprise to you, but it perfectly possible to buy Australian, Canadian, American, Argentinian, etc. goods in the EU.

Re: Gibraltar
 

No, it's not binary. Trade continues, just less efficiently (tariffs and trade barriers). The question is whether the incremental non-EU trade will make up for EU trade loss. Probably not.

Re: Gibraltar
 

That's what's so disheartening, that so many people voted on spurious reasons. Not everyone. I accept that there are many with cogent economic and social arguments that voted Brexit, but the 'crooked bananas swing vote' was sufficiently large to knock us out of the EU.

Re: Gibraltar
 

What were the percentages of voters swung by a perceived ( and incorrect) injustice concerning wonky bananas?
Would be interested cheers :thumbup:

Re: Gibraltar
 

What evidence do you have as to why people voted the way they did? Thought so :p

I get that the result didn't go the way you wanted it to but it is done. Why not move to a state that will remain in the EU, then you can keep all of its benefits once Brexit is finalised. After all, those EU citizens are definitely going to guarantee the rights of ex-pat UK citizens post Brexit aren't they? ;)

Re: Gibraltar
 

I need to learn to read to the end of threads before posting.

Re: Gibraltar
 

This continues to sound like a bunch of sour grapes.
A failure to admit that those who voted for brexit did so for reasons that they found compelling.
The argument that they voted for brexit because they were being led up the garden path is unproven at best while the counter argument that those who voted remain did so because they were fed a diet of fear can also be put aside.
Those who live in the properous parts of the UK wring their hands in horror at the outcome.. but in those parts of the UK hit hard by the effects of an governing system that condemned them to more of the same, this was an opportunity to speak out.
'Ah!', I hear you say. 'What has this sense of exasperation to do with brexit?'
It's a question that betrays a misunderstanding of why the brexiteers won. Their reasoning was not spurious, but compelling. They may not have understood the full implications of what they were doing but something had to change and this opportunity filled the bill. Those in the complacent, 'never had it so good' shires will never bring themselves to admit that in some ways it was their affluence and indifference that pushed the rest over the edge.

Re: Gibraltar
 

The CPS may ultimately decide if that's true or not: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-misled-voters

From a philosophical point of view, this article is interesting:

Brexit voters: misled victims or conscious agents?
http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/71562/1/blo...s%20agents.pdf


Lots of interesting data illustrating how and why people voted here: http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06...voted-and-why/

Re: Gibraltar
 

Really interesting.
I suspect that the real reason that so much angst is generated about the result is that the Remain vote was expected to win, so much so that the Remain side couldn't be bothered to vote in sufficient numbers to do it. This realisation, and a reluctance to accept the fact, means that someone else has to be at fault, hense the description of the Leave group as irresponsible.

Re: Gibraltar
 

FFS you guys take things literally. Wonky bananas is just one of MANY untruths propagated by the Eurosceptics to influence perceptions on sovereignty. Like the Americans who bought into the "make America great again" (false premise) Nigel and his chums set the UK debate to "take back control" (false premise).

Re: Gibraltar
 

Why do you always view people/groups "at fault"? Nobody is "at fault" here, but when there has been serious errors made, say Remainers staying home, Remainers not making a positive case, Cameron using a simple majority on a highly complex issue, timing the referendum during the worst refugee crisis in decades, one wonders whether the result is reliable. Is it wrong to pause and reflect on what new future might be on the cards? To reconsider, nationally, if we are indeed On the right course? Two former prime ministers have advocated doing just this.

Re: Gibraltar
 

No, it's not wrong to pause and consider the future, but reconsider?
I think not, especially when one of the PMs you cite is probably Blair, a man whose judgement will live in infamy (to misquote a US president)'.
Such an argument smacks of 'let's reconsider and reconsider again until everyone agrees with me'.

Re: Gibraltar
 

Not again and again, just reconsider after the heat of the moment. But I can see it's not going to happen. Too many hell bent Brexiters that are ideologically against being in the EU whether it benefits the nation or not.

Re: Gibraltar
 

Once Brexit has occurred, the Court with supremacy in England and Wales will be the Supreme Court in London, and the Westminster Parliament will be supreme over all things in the UK. Who else will have "control" over citizens of the UK while they are in the UK? Apologies for being "literal."

Re: Gibraltar
 

No man is an island.

Although, I suppose in Britain's case, though literally not a man, literally, we are an island.

Re: Gibraltar
 

Concerning the European parliament and Commission, are we not right to be suspicious of such large bureaucratic decision making structures? Should we not be concerned about centralized planning and its effect on the capacity of individual inquisitiveness and creativity? Brexit challenges the totalizing pan-European meta-narrative. It’s a re-conceptualization of how we experience and explain our existence as a culture in the world. I assert the decision to leave the Union is a bold and couragous challenge by the British people, to the idea of concentrated power and it imagines a more open, localized definition of democracy and human agency.

Re: Gibraltar
 

Funny how this thread is about the sovereignty of a British territory and Brexit and wonky bananas has take it over! Ill admit the wonky banana part may have been my fault - but bats made me do it! :rofl: ;) lol.

I dont think Gibrlatar should be drawn into Brexit negotiations its nothing to do with it, and shame on Spain for attempting to use Gibraltar as some kind of bargaining chip!!

Re: Gibraltar
 

People announcing over decades, and still, that they want/wanted out of the EU because of things like silly EU rules about bananas and cucumbers. :nod:

Re: Gibraltar
 

We are.
The Sir Humphreys of the world will understand the dynamics that will, even to this day, be baffling and aggravating to the Merkels and Hollandes of europe. Imagine having 27 and a half Ministers, each competing for attention from a bunch of civil servants who, rumour has it, haven't done a real job in their lives and yet control the mechanism that is the EU. Who wouldn't want to wash their hands of a system designed to sieze up and be thoroughly corrupt.
The reason Merkel and Hollande are so upset is that they're stuck with it, and the reason men like Junker are so upset is that they know full well that the house of cards is teetering under the weight of a gravy train they have done so much to enlarge.

Re: Gibraltar
 

I prefer the European conceptualization. But I accept that I am in a minority (of 48%).

Re: Gibraltar
 

Let me guess, UKIP?

Re: Gibraltar
 

Yes it imagines (fantasy). Creativity is in abundance. We saw examples of the Leave Campaign's creativeness on the back of the campaign bus.

Re: Gibraltar
 

Nope, simply the dictates of common sense.