Snowy560

Hi I just saw this:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45971266

BEVS

Is it possible in Canada to elect to swap the UK pension for a Canadian state pension?

In New Zealand those with UK state pensions can choose to receive the NZ state pension instead I believe.

I am not 100% sure but if an NZer goes to live in the UK they cannot receive their NZ state pension. So it does not work equally both ways.

BristolUK

Stand by for comments saying that if you've deserted the UK you're lucky to get anything and that you should have researched it before turning your back on the UK...even if you did know about the freezing issue.

Mr Bean

I spoke with a guy in the UK, in June, and he said I was basically screwed.

Almost Canadian

She will lose.

She would be much better lobbying her local MP in Canada to persuade Canada to enter into a reciprocal agreement with the UK. That is the reason that those in Canada don't get the increases, but those in the US do.

Very simple really. It will never happen though.

BristolUK

Very likely.
This debate was in the guardian a couple of weeks ago. Nobody seems to know what this reciprocal arrangement is. What does the UK and the US do for each other that Canada and the UK does not?

Edited to add: I've just been looking over a couple of US sites about living abroad in retirement. The only issue of relevance appears to be a handful of countries where it won't be paid (Cuba, Ukraine, North Korea, Vietnam get mentioned) and it's held for you until in a country that it can be.

So the terms of receipt of the USA pension matters not which of the other countries one lives in. It's unlikely the USA has a reciprocal arrangement with all of them, the only thing that appears to matter is the practicality of sending it to half a dozen countries and the US doesn't appear to be doing anything for the UK that needs reciprocating.

Almost Canadian

I suggest you read the Judgment of the Courts when this was last argued. IIRC, it was all contained in them.

BristolUK

I've seen the judgements over the years as reported many a time without having read the legalese. I've never seen anything about what the US and the UK do for each other that Canada and the UK don't. Have you? Perhaps you could put it into layperson's English for me.

There's a double tax agreement between UK-Canada and UK-USA. That's reciprocal.

A US retiree gets the same US pension whether they then chose to live in the US, Russia, South Korea, France or the UK (among many others). That appears to be the norm rather than something reciprocated.But if it is because there is a reciprocal arrangement then the US must have a reciprocal arrangement with Russia ad South Korea (and all the others) as well as the UK and that seems a little unlikely.

BristolUK

I've done some more googling.
I have found two lists where the UK "has arrangements" with non EU countries regarding NI contributions. The USA and Canada are both on them. I also found a list of countries of countries with which the UK does NOT have an arrangement with and neither Canada nor the USA was on it.

I've been looking through the judgement of a 2003 case - and realise I have read some of the legalese previously after all because it seems very familiar. I can see no mention of anything about reciprocal arrangements, it just says a government is free to decide on differences - such as not uprating - once it's actually in payment for reasons it sees fit.

neill

What's to stop a British expat having a US bank account and postal address?

Almost Canadian

Nothing.

However, it would be fraudulent for such an expat to hold themselves out as being a US resident, when they are not.

Almost Canadian

I haven't read them for some time and, if I am honest, as I have no real interest in this debate, I don't intend to look them up now. As you are aware, I believe that everybody should take as little as they can from other taxpayers.



OK

What the US pays to its pensioners is a matter for the US. That has no bearing upon what the UK should pay to its pensioners.

BristolUK

Agreed. But the point I was making was that once qualified, that US pension will be paid in exactly the same way whether the person lived in the USA, the UK or somewhere else. If it's a reciprocal arrangement that allows the UK pension to be uprated in the USA then it follows that the US pension is allowed to be uprated in the UK because of that reciprocal arrangement.

But the USA does it anyway with no reciprocal arrangement.

BristolUK

You might have an issue opening a US bank account without proof of residence but I suppose in theory you may already have one.

But there's all kinds of sharing information these days - perhaps such an income arriving in a US bank (there's probably a code or something identifying what it is) has to be reported to the US tax department in the same way stuff is reported to CRA.

If DWP thinks you're in the US then HMRC will think that too (shared computer systems) and there may be liaison with the US Tax office which contradicts CRA involvement when you do your Canadian Tax return.

neill

Yeah, but i'm not confident that all the systems are as joined up as people generally think they are -- and you can have a US bank account without being a US resident for tax purposes.
Would be interesting to 'test' out the system.