dbd33

What's your tag line about, btw, do you suggest that there are less services available in French? That's not really the case you know.

NewWorldMan

I doubt it's quite as black/white as that but on balance, yes, I'd say I'm pro-choice. I would never choose an abortion myself but I'm glad that others have the choice to make as they wish.

Does it change the argument?

dbd33

I think it muddles the argument. Is your position that Morgentaler is a worthy recipient of the award but should not have been given because that would offend some people?

NewWorldMan

I don't think that could be a consistent position.

My position is that the level of offence (sp, eh?) caused by the award is the reason why it should not be granted.

Millions of Canadians view him as standing accused (and even chief reveller and instigator) of the mass-murder of Canadians. They may be wrong in the eyes of the law but no amount of Supreme Court judgements (either way) are going to change their mind.

I would like to know the 'Canada' that the Order of Canada now represents. Is it a vindictive Canada that feels it can traipse all over the strongly-held beliefs of others. If so, then I'll sit down and you won't hear another word from me on the subject.

As an aside, I note that the greatest living author was responsible for one of the nomination letters.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...Story/National

I'd like to have a read of that letter. That would be a welcome addition to the debate.

iaink

I was referring to the comment about giving up the award being an "unchristian" thing to do. Please dont try and quote me out of context to try and raise a point eh

I dont think it was strictly a political decision, not in the sense that it was made to push some pro choice agenda. I suspect it was awarded in response to an active campaign questioning why it hasnt been awarded before...which quite probably was due to political decisions not to...


As to the polarising effect of this award... Too bad. You could argue that there are plenty of pro-life people on the Order of Canada list, so why not a Pro-choicer? This award was also awarded for his libertarian leadership too, and frankly whats the point in only awarding the Order of Canada to nice safe inoffensive candidates? Thats not the point of it, otherwise just dish them out to every Canadian who has scores a top 10 hit and forget the rest. Isnt canada supposed to be a diverse nation?

The Catholic church has a large influence in Canada still, due to the history of the place, but its perhaps not as influential as it thinks it is. Canada is a secular state, and the law is pretty clear on this issue and the majority of people can live with it. Seldom does a week go by while I babysitting in church when the priest is not banging on about the evils of abortion again, and I sit and bite my tongue while I watch the couple in the pews in front wrestle with their eight children, while the rest of the congregation stifles a yawn. Naturally a vociferous minority will make a fuss over this, but thats all they are. Its a democracy, let them have a say, and then carry on. Ultimately its just a gong being awarded, it has no real effect on the merits of the arguments of either side.

You cant possibly argue that when Canadas history for the last 50 years is written that Henry Morgentaler won't be seen as a considerable presence, and given his contribution to Canadian society, whether you approve of it or not, it would be utterly bizarre for that to have not been recognised.

Jingsamichty

... and my comment about it being "unChristian" of Fr. Larre to give up his award was based on the notion of 'turning the other cheek'.

It's not very Christian to stomp your feet and take your ball home just because you disagree with someone. At least it wasn't when I was getting my catechism thumped into me.

iaink

Ah, now I see

Oakvillian

been out & about for the weekend so only just seen this...

That was not my view of politics. My point was that this is absolutely not a political process. Nobody gets a vote (except, as it happens, that a vote was apparently taken in the Advisory Committee meeting that discussed Morgentaler's nomination).

As you can probably guess, I am pro-choice (as much as a mere man is entitled to an opinion on these matters). However, if I lived in a country where that choice was not available, I wouldn't be surprised - and certainly wouldn't give back any award I had been given by that country - if somebody who campaigned against my views but in alignment with the current laws of that land was given a similar honour. That would cheapen the honour.

NewWorldMan

My apologies. It appears that I lost not only the thread, but the 'gin also.

Those political decisions are stilll there. The only two government representatives on the committee both voted against the award. The panel's own informal processes (that of consensus) had to be circumvented in order to achieve it.


Take for instance, Don Cherry. Nobody could accuse him of being 'safe and inoffensive'. At some point in his life, he's probably offended every Canadian going. On the other hand, nobody thinks he's a mass-murderer.

I keep coming back to the same point .... in this case, the level of offense is so great that the award can only be seen as a 'political' decision.

Some would argue (correctly, IMO) that the leaders of the FLQ have had more impact yet I don't see their 'contribution' to Canadian society recognised with a gong.

iaink

Don Cherry would indeed be a very safe and popular choice for the Order, he's controversial only in hockey circles, mainly for railing against the nature of European imports. For the average Joe on the street he would be a pretty uncontroversial choice (given that Rush have the OofC!)

Regardless of what pro-lifers would like the world to be like,, if you ban abortion, desperate women will resort to desperate actions, and lives are still lost. To compare pro choice doctors carrying out the wishes of their patients to mass murderers, and then link that idea to the Quebec liberation front that was responsible for a series of terrorist bombings does not serve your argument well.

If his selection offends you, well, sorry, its time to grow a thicker skin, because that is what the attitude of the majority of Canadians is to abortion. If you campaign diligently and enough people agree with you, then maybe you can get the law changed, and maybe the order of Canada will be conferred on you some day.

Besides. look at Jerry Adams and Martin McGuiness, stranger things have happened I suspect.

Souvenir

Excellent post mate.

NewWorldMan

I don't know how the average Jacques in the street would take to it, though.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2004/02...rry040206.html

As an aside, do you really not think that Cherry's unwavering support for the military gets up a lot of people's noses in Canada. I laugh when I think of MOTD having a break to commemorate a fallen soldier.

The idea of comparing pro-choice doctors to mass murderers is not part of my argument. However, I'm also capable of understanding that it is an overwhelming part of other people's (when I say "other people", I am referring to millions of Canadians) arguments, where the idea of 'comparison' would be a ridiculous one. You may as well compare 'bachelors' and 'unmarried men'. In their eyes, the Order of Canada has been granted to a de facto (if not de jure) mass murderer.

My comparison of the FLQ and Morgentaler was as a response to your '50 years of Canadian history' idea and the concept that you can disapprove of someone's actions yet still feel them worthy of an award.

Or maybe empathy ... ??

Mine also.

That's an interesting point. Did Morgentaler 'campaign diligently' or did he go ahead and break the law anyway? As I've previously mentioned, by the awarding panel's own criteria for stripping people of the award he should be barred thrice over ..... but that also appears to have been overlooked.

Souvenir

Why would it? Rick Mercer must be an odds-on favourite for the OC and you don't get much more vocal in support for the military than him.

Nathalie MacMaster OC is also a military fan.

dbd33

I think it's Cherry's jingoism and racism that makes him so popular. When he rails against the wimps from Europe and commends the Canadian farm boys that can take and deliver a punch he's appealing to the jingoism and simple mindedness of the unhyphenated population. His unwavering support for the troops is part of that redneck tradition.

iaink

Quinte may not be as multicultural as the GTA, but there is a healthy hyphenated population here, and support for the military is very strong here, in part of course because of the large Trenton base in our midst.

Hundreds of regular citizens still show up outside the base for repatriation ceremonies, come rain or shine.