dbd33

In the winter I often pass anti-abortionists on the street waving placards and harassing the women attending the clinic across the road. I make the tiny effort to splash them with spray as I pass. I do so knowing that it's improbable that anyone will shoot at me or, indeed, that there will be any consequence. I think it's just something people from England should do, not having abortion on demand is the mark of a backward country and, though we may be transplanted, we should strive to support the same ideals here as we would at home.

Does Morgentaler deserve an award? Of course he does, he worked through the era of abortionists being shot. Should the award come from this government? I dunno about that, the Prime Minister is about as pro-choice as the Pope, there's some dodgy politics at work in this.

NewWorldMan

You are kidding, aren't you? Abortion and christianity .... "don't really see any connection" ... !!

It's worthwhile to have a look at the Order of Canada page.

http://www.gg.ca/honours/nat-ord/oc/oc-con_e.asp

Further down the page, it talks of the procedure for termination of appointment to the Order (which can be voluntarily given up, unlike the UK). By my reckoning he passes on ALL the criteria (criminal offence, official sanction by a professional body, significant departure from generally-recognized standards of public behaviour) used when people are stripped of the appointment (Eagleson, Ahenakew).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Removal...rder_of_Canada

Given the current state of opinion in Canada regarding abortion .....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortio...#Opinion_polls

.... I find the award to be politically driven and indefensible .... and I support what the guy has done!!

I can only imagine the fury of those who don't.

pint princess

I'm not sure that I understand. I was under the impression Canada's abortion laws were more liberal the England's. Has there been a change in the laws in either country?

Souvenir

I think the point is that Canada's abortion laws are as they are largely because of Morgentaler's efforts.

dbd33

Indeed. Also that women attending clinics in Canada are bullied by religionists in a way I don't think happens in the UK.

Souvenir

I thought those groups were under a court order to stay away from his clinics.

dbd33

I believe so but suppose the one I pass often (at Parliament and Gerrard) isn't covered as, on rainy days, there's always a bunch of militant lunatics out there. I've long wondered why they don't picket on dry days, I suppose it's some sort of penance.

dthomas

Anyone who has had the misfortune to suffer a Rush concert should be given an effin' VC.

Oakvillian

Not sure what you mean by "the current state of opinion...". Every one of the opinion polls quoted in the Wikipedia article you reference has a majority (though sometimes not an outright majority, always a majority of those who expressed an opinion) in favour of a woman's right to choice. Even in the 2005 Environics poll for Life Canada (hardly a dispassionate observer) about legal protection for human life, the answer with the highest number of respondents was that life begins at birth.

Given Harper's obviously lukewarm comments on Morgentaler's award, I hardly think this can be said to have been politically driven. As Iaink and dbd have said, he's a guy [on edit, that's Morgentaler, not Harper!] who stood up for his beliefs in a woman's right to choice (and de facto for the rule of law), despite vitriolic attacks and threats of violence. A deserving recipient, IMHO.

OH, and I can also imagine the fury of those who don't support him. Let them be furious. It is unlikely to change the majority view, which is one of the unfortunate side-effects of living in a democracy.

NewWorldMan

I think a better way of describing it would be "Canada's abortion laws aren't as they aren't largely because of Morgentaler's efforts".

Canada has no abortion law. No abortion law whatsoever.

Maybe before we congratulate him for his efforts at striking down the previous law we should consider [SARCASM] his heroic efforts [/SARCASM] at furthering the discussion on a new law ..... unless of course, you feel that there should be no law whatsoever ..... like Morgenthaler ..... and unlike the vast majority of the Canadian people.

dbd33

Quite rightly so, imo.

Here's a history of the legislative mess:

http://www.duhaime.org/LegalResource...in-Canada.aspx

NewWorldMan

Should the Order of Canada be based on a referendum? My point was that the appointment of the award polarises opinion in Canada in a way that Geddy Lee's (two concerts, do I get a Purple Heart??) doesn't. The appointment of the award is seen as a direct "F**k you" to a huge (though not a majority) swathe of people in Canada. Miniority 'rights' is a two-edged sword.

Have a quick glance at the list of the other recipients and tell me that you sincerely think Harper has anything to do with the awards. When I say that it's politically driven, I'm talking about the other side of the spectrum.


Again, I didn't think the Order of Canada simply reflected the majority view. I don't remember getting a vote. I think it lessens the award.

Oakvillian

I disagree wholeheartedly. The appointment of Dr Morgentaler to the Order is a recognition of the work he has done, and the contribution that work has made to the wellbeing of Canada and Canadians. How is that a "f**k you" to anybody except those who either disregard or seek to change the current legislation on abortion? It's not polarising opinion, it's simply letting anti-abortionists know that they've lost the debate and the rest of the world has moved on.

How could the Liberals or NDP have had anything to do with it? The OC is in the gift of the GG as recommended by the Advisory Council, which currently contains no serving politicians of any flavour.


Again, I didn't claim that it represented - or should represent -the majority view; the point I was making is that those complaining about his appointment do themselves a disservice, since their view is in a minority in Canada. I think what lessens the award is empty gestures such as that by Fr Lucien Larre, the Coquitlam priest who returned his in protest.

NewWorldMan

I agree. The appointment is politically driven. Not by any 'organised' political party, but certainly by a political 'movement'. Who is it who's doing the "letting"?

I must say that's an interesting view of politics you have there.

I think there are two strands of protest against the appointment. First of all, you have the anti-abortionists and Catholics/Christians who would argue that the Order of Canada should not be given to someone who is a mass-murderer in the eyes of millions of Canadians. Secondly, there are those, like myself, who acknowledge the feelings of the first group of people and express disbelief that their strongly-held views have been dismissed in such a fashion. They lost the debate and now their faces are being rubbed in it and I didn't think that was the purpose of the Order of Canada. I do now.

dbd33

I can't say that I view the Order of Canada as being a big deal but aren't you struggling to create two groups here? I can't imagine that there are people who are not anti-abortionists and yet bothered by this award. Do you, for example, count yourself as being pro-choice?