Lorna at Vicenza

My sisters and I remember getting a hiding from Dad just once in our lives ...... and that was due to shock, surprise and pain.

Mum had been going on and on about how I didn't deserve my single room and didn't keep it tidy (though I did - very tidy) and that she'd give it to my younger sister and make me share the other room with the youngest sister.

One morning the 3 of us woke up early and decided that this wasn't such a bad idea so we started swapping furniture around. We moved the chests of drawers no problem, the bedside cabinets and then we started on one of the small wardrobes.

We huffed and puffed and dragged it half way across the landing and then it got stuck. Right in front of mum an dad's bedroom door.

My dad was in the habit of sleeping nude and when he woke up and needed the loo he'd often just put a hand over his bits if he thought we were all downstairs and quickly stride across to the bathroom. Then he'd shower and get dressed.

On this particular morning he sleepily opened his bedroom door ready to stride along to the bathroom and quickly slammed slap bang into the solid back of a wardrobe. His yell of pain probably woke all the neighbours.

My sisters and I ran away as we heard dad screaming and shouting and manhandling the wardrobe out of the way. I don't think he's ever moved a piece of furniture so fast in his life.

He regrets hitting us that day (which was one swift slap on the backside each) and we know he feels guilty about it - but we all laugh at that story now.

I got to keep my bedroom anyway and mum stopped going on and on about making us swap rooms.

Coffeepot

oh the image x

newshoney

So agree. I was smacked, well actually it felt like I was walloped with whatever came to hand: belt, vacuum cleaner cable, hairbrush. It may not have happened often but when I think back to my childhood they physical chastisement looms larger than any joys.

I had a very troubled relationship with my mum as a result of it because it felt to me like she had been a cruel disciplinarian rather than a loving parent. I loved my nanny better because she rewarded good behaviour and ignored most 'bad' behaviour so that a raised eyebrow was enough to stop me in my tracks.

Many years later when I was a parent myself we discussed it, and to my amazement my mum could only remember hitting me once or twice and dismissed it as nothing special! To her it was a small thing, to me enormous. We both adjusted our perspective, she apologised and I forgave her. Thankfully we managed to achieve a warm and loving relationship in the years before she died (after 25 years of sarcasm and coldness on my part and bewilderment on hers).

Having recently done some voluntary work as a language assistant in a high school, it's pretty obvious which kids have been smacked - they grow to be defensive-aggressive, uncooperative and show potential for physical aggression. I am convinced that the case against physical chastisement is watertight and for those who still think it's okay to smack - how would you like it if I came and walloped you because you did something I didn't like?

Oh and I tried to give karma to several people - including dingbat and fledermaus for saying spanking leaves scars and is plain wrong - but apparently I have to spread it around more!

Butch Cassidy

Rubbish.

I was rarely smacked, and yet I (though ashamed to admit it) am defensive-aggressive, uncooperative and show potential for physical aggression.

I was verbal and emotional abused by my father, had an extremely manipulative mother and was abused by a family 'friend'.

I do not agree with random acts of physical violence\abuse BUT do not believe it is any more (or less) damaging (to the pysche) than other forms of abuse.

newshoney

I have absolutely no doubt that verbal and emotional abuse can be as damaging (or in some cases more so) as physical abuse. This was a thread about physical chastisement... not abuse per se as spanking suggests a measured degree of physical contact.

I gave my view: that from both personal experience and much observation, this type of punishment in the main fails to achieve the desired outcome (conformity to parental/societal wishes regarding the child's behaviour) and can leave lasting scars.

Your immediate reaction to this is to brand my view as rubbish. You could have chosen to give your view without disparaging mine.

That you are (by your own admission) somewhat damaged is something I would have laid bets on from a reading of some of your other contributions to the forum. I can assure you that I am not without empathy or sadness for the trials you may have endured.

I don't wish to cause offence but I think perhaps it is time to take a stand (it is in my nature to be open and honest - you can be certain I am not the kind to complain to the mods behind your back).

I have formed the opinion that your lack of respect for others, the absence of reasonable tact in your posts and your frequent references to sexual matters, especially to sexual deviancy are quite disturbing and are not portraying you in the best light. Can I appeal to your better nature to play nicely with the rest of us?

Coffeepot

I am sorry you were treated this way Butch, I think it is very telling in the way you write that something has affected you in the past

There are many people of our generation that were abused and mistreated, now adays this would be classed as abuse and we would be on a protection register or in mine and my siblings case probably removed from the home ?

This is why it is so important to not spank, slap, hit, shout at our children, i smacked my older 2 boys when i didn't have the parenting skills and was a very young mum, i feel awful for doing that i really do, when my daughter was born i became involved with helping at school and in the child care field learnt skills that i believe we should all learn about how to discipline without smacking or shouting at our children,

There is no need to smack children if you bring them up in the right way, all my children have gone to church schools and whilst i am not religous particularly i believe my children have good morals and a respect of other people and of us as parents, they know right from wrong.

When you think about the force of an adult hand on a childs leg or bottom etc its terrible, to inflict that pain to punish a child, smacking is never right no matter how you look at it, as an adult you are in charge and need to lead by example, children are what they live xx

Butch Cassidy

I was not disaparaging your views (and apologise if my 'comments' came across as such), my intention was to point out the simplistic nature of your comment that merely by observing SOME actions you can determine that a child was physically abused.

As far lack of respect, I would consider myself (probably) one of the most respectful posters on this forum. Abscence of reasonable tact? perhaps (but unlikely). As a 'journalist' I would have expected you to know the difference between direct reference and double entendre or suggestion. What I will freely admit is the fact that I do not suffer fools gladly, have no time for bigots (in any shape or form) and will continue to post in my own style.

Regardless of the above I have no intention of turning this into a slanging match and therefore will end now.

newshoney

I didn't intend to make it a slanging match and I think you also deserve an apology from me... I wrote the earlier post feeling highly ticked off as I was feeling disrespected not just by you but by other male posters on other threads.

I take your point... I cannot be certain that this is a response to purely physical abuse. I have not conducted a scientific poll, just observed that in almost all the cases I observed where children were disruptive, disrespectful and bullying and physical to others at school, they were terrified of their parents being informed because they said they would get slapped (or worse) at home.

Oink

My parents where so lax when it came to discipline its amazing I didn't kill myself or someone else. My parents never even did the, "we're disappointed" routine., they was always just trying to understand the behavior. My mates where really jealous but it was anarchy. When I got caught shop-lifting my mum went round on her own to pay the shop owner and my dad gave me extra pocket money as he thought that's why nicked the sweets in the first place.

They didn't raise voices their let alone hit me. So, I can't even imagine hitting a child. I think I'd be the traumatized one.

BristolUK

This perfectly illustrates what works for one doesn't necessarily work for others, while what is negative or destructive for someone else need not be so for everyone else.

There will be those who think (with some justification) that you were effectively rewarded for stealing.

But did that lack of 'discipline' mean you turned out bad?

I was one of four brothers. It was by no means unusual for our misdemeanors (usually mucking around when we should be sleeping) to result in having to bend over our mum's bed, PJ pants down for a slippering by her.

I'm not one of those "I was given 6 of the best regularly and it never did me any harm" people.....but all four of us grew up completely different characters. All have kids and three of us didn't spank. (Not the kids anyway. )

The same upbringing produced four very different people.

newshoney

Indeed... but whereas some children may be spanked with no obvious harm caused, there is reportedly a growing body of evidence (which I have seen/heard references to, but not personally studied) that physical chastisement is on the whole less effective than other methods of parental control and, though the physical trauma may be slight, leaves a greater pscyhological trauma in a considerable number of children.

Many people (even in the post-industrial 'Western' world) reject the argument that violence is unproductive and ineffective in raising children. I hope they can be persuaded to try other methods and then evaluate what works best and results in a happier family.

Almost Canadian

How can individual families do this though? If they spank and the child turns out OK, does that justify spanking? Unless they have cloned children, and spank one and not the other, how can they evaluate what works best?

I am sure we all know families where the children are not spanked and they are little horrors and those where the children are spanked and they are angelic.

From my own experience of bringing up 3 children, I know that what works for one is the total opposite of what works for another.

It is, quite clearly, and emotive and polarizing subject that, as of yet, has no correct answer.

livermanl

This is a touchy subject and I wanted to leave it alone because of that but my concerns with the whole spanking/non-spanking issue is that all the laws that are in place and all of the politically correct folk that say you can't touch your kid were all created because of ABUSED kids. Not once in my life would I say I was abused I can quite easily say that I have been PUNISHED by my parents, but the punishments as a kid weren't always the same. I know of being spanked on four occasions and I remember that it was indeed deserved.

There is a huge difference between a kid getting hit everyday and only getting a spank once in a blue moon through their own actions, again I do not condone spanking on a daily basis so that it becomes routine but if it is used in the right way it can become a very important tool in a parents arsenal.

The biggest argument with the research you required is, how many happy slappers were there in the 1970's compared to today?

I'm not saying that this is solely down to kids not being spanked but it is in part to do with the stigma attached to spanking and in extension the discipline methods towards children, I would guess that more and more people will now just beyelling in frustration unable to raise their hand and without the knowledge/power to be able to give a timeout.