Re: Crufts 2009
 

We were in the UK when a lot of this stuff was in the headlines. One thing I remember was the pictures of the Bulldog 200? years ago to the bulldog of today - I would not have recognised the old breed as a bulldog at all. It's all because of the standards and the way they have been interpreted. I'm pleased something is being done at last.

Re: Crufts 2009
 

I don't come here that often because I am too busy, but this thread caught my eye. I agree 100% with Louise's first post (that certain breeds have problems) and like her, I have shown dogs at Crufts for years - 20 to be exact. I am also a dog breeder who health tests every dog I keep, whether I use it for breeding or not, and every puppy I have sold has had an eye test at the Animal Health Trust in Newmarket before going to its new owner. For a meaningful result, I keep all puppies until they are 10 weeks old as eye testing done earlier than this is not as useful.

Both parents will have been eye-tested under the KC/BVA scheme, hip-scored under the KC/BVA scheme, DNA tested for hereditary hemolytic anaemia, blood or DNA tested for Fanconi Syndrome (both HA and FS are tests I send to America from the UK - at great expense), and .... how many of these tests are "recommended" by our own KC for my breed? ONE. The eye test. I happen to think all of the above tests are necessary, and once in Canada I will add the blood test for thyroid - something I have had real problems with trying to get done properly in the UK.

So you see, not all dog breeders are evil money-grabbers, and I sell my puppies for exactly the same price as other breeders who sell puppies from untested parents. I have full health results going back 4-5 generations on my dogs and while some problems can never be guaranteed against, others can be. The problems that cannot be guaranteed against are at least lessened as a possibility, where the health results from generations of breeding stock have been good.

If the KC insisted on only registering puppies from health-tested stock, anyone buying a puppy would have a better chance of a healthy one, but the KC rely too much on the huge amounts of registration fees coming from puppy farmers and unscrupulous "breeders" who find it more convenient (and cheaper) not to health test their animals. While the KC are happy to turn a blind eye to some of their "clients" while urging us all to toe the health line, the idiot BBC are no better, slamming dog breeders as a whole and being deliberately selective about what they reported in that programme.

Do you really believe that ALL cavalier breeders/Rhodesian Ridgeback breeders have no care or thought for their dogs? If any of you believe that you have been suckered by the BBC - which was their intention. They certainly dug around in the muck to find unrepentant idiots who were only too happy to spout their ignorance. A true, balanced picture of the dog scene would have produced good as well as bad breeding practices, and it would have been worthwhile to give an equal amount of air time to those breeders who test - though that would have defeated the whole object wouldn't it? To BASH the breeders.

To my mind, the biggest a**holes in this whole scenario are the production company who made this documentary, and the BBC who gleefully screened it. They were quite happy to misrepresent and shut out a whole section of the dog breeding community, but were themselves unhappy at being "exploited" and "misrepresented" in the US by PETA, when they used the documentary for their own propaganda purposes. Pots calling kettles black came to mind!

Exposeés of anything will always be lurid and dramatic, and not necessarily true. I do not excuse unethical "breeders", but I find myself constantly infuriated that they are the ones that make the headlines, while the rest of us are swept aside because we do not fit the mould created for us. :curse:

Rant over!!
:eek:

Re: Crufts 2009
 

I want to say I wasn't slating dog breeders at all. I know there are some very good ones - more good than bad that do do the right things. So sorry if my previuos reply was misninterpreted.

Re: Crufts 2009
 

Dear Piff Poff, I wasn't squawking at you - I just zipped through the posts and noted a general consensus that the BBC was doing a good job and the KC (boo! hiss!) was the pantomime villain shielding the horrible dog breeders from what was coming to them. I just wanted to present the other side of the coin - the side the BBC didn't want aired because it would dampen down their sensational headlines.

I would also like to say, in defence of line breeding, that it is perfectly possible to breed quite close relatives together without creating a disaster. That's what health testing is for. Obviously some breeds should stay well away from close line breeding because problems are so entrenched, but I have (snoozing away downstairs) a 17 year old, who was the result of a grandfather/granddaughter mating. All of her offspring from her first litter are alive and well at almost 15 years of age. She was mated to her own half brother the second time, and her 11 year old daughter from that litter is also downstairs, along with her granddaughter and her great-granddaughter. None have health problems, and even the old girl at her great age is not on any medication and goes out for a walk most days.

It is just too simple to say that certain matings should never be done, and if they are outlawed that everything is bound to improve. There is always a place for careful line breeding as that fixes in good, desirable and healthy traits, just as it fixes in bad, undesirable and unhealthy ones when done without knowledge or care. I think it is too late to turn some breeds around though some dedicated people will certainly try. So there you have it. Genetic problems can only surface if they are there in the background in the first place. If they are not, they cannot be conjured out of thin air.

Health testing the parents gives information on the probabilities, and rules in (or out) the desirability or otherwise of any planned mating. Good breeders do the tests and abide by the results, however disappointing it may be for them. I have a beautiful champion dog that has occasional fits. He has never been used for breeding and nor will he be. I have been approached by breeders who would like to use him as a stud dog but I have refused. It may be that he would not pass on his tendency for fits but I am not prepared to take the chance, however good his other attributes.

Anyone out there thinking of buying a puppy? Search the internet and find out what health problems there are in your chosen breed. Find either the national breed club or a regional one near to you and contact the secretary for a list of breeders in good standing with the club. Phone the breeders to find out not only if they have puppies (or a waiting list) but to ask about their policy on health testing. If anyone tells you their breed has no health problems - walk away, they are not telling the truth. All breeds have some concerns, though some of course are much worse than others. Ask if you can visit and meet adult dogs before the puppies are born. Puppies are tiny and cute for a very short period of time, but are adult dogs for years (hopefully). It makes more sense to see what you are taking on long term. Don't be in such a hurry to get a puppy that all common sense flies out of the window.

While Joe Public is prepared to buy their new puppy through an ad in Exchange & Mart, the local free paper, or from a tatty postcard stuck up in a shop window, potential heartbreak and disaster is always just around the corner. Refuse to buy from any "breeder" that cannot produce copies of health certificates for both parents. Refuse to accept that this is OK - it isn't. When the public demand puppies from health tested parents only, the sales will go to the breeders who health test. It really is as simple as that. :)

And now I will creep back under my little stone and disappear again. I didn't mean to dash out wielding a big stick, but I did want to say that some of us have only the good of our respective breed(s) at heart, and everything else is secondary to that, eh?

Re: Crufts 2009
 

There is some really good advice there. You sound like a wonderful responsible breeder. We were thinking of getting a new (v. expensive) puppy from a breeder in Red Deer. I asked a few questions about health concerns in her sire and dame and the way she brushed off my questions made me run a mile. If when you get here you happen to breed chows - I may well be on your waiting list:rofl:

Re: Crufts 2009
 

Wrong breed, wrong Province! I am moving to Ontario (just as soon as I sell this blasted house) but there has been quite a bit of interest lately and some people came last night for a second viewing, so ......

It sounds like you did the right thing Piff Poff, walking away from the breeder in Red Deer, and if that particular breeder gets this reaction a few more times he/she just might think that testing is going to be necessary if homes are to be found for future puppies.

Years ago I almost married an American who lived in Manhattan. This was a serious concern where my dog was concerned (I only had one at the time) as he was a country dog used to running free. One day while I was visiting, my boyfriend took me into a pet shop, imagining I would be pleased to see all the lovely puppies ... Needless to say I was quite appalled at the amounts and the various breeds, and two or three of them were four months old at least, so had not been successful in finding themselves an owner. Yes they seemed happy enough, what puppy isn't if it is fed, watered and has other puppies to play with? But it was hardly the right environment for a growing pup that should have been finding its feet in a permanent home. I can think of no responsible breeder who would offload puppies into a pet shop with no say over where they finally end up, so could only think their origins were dubious. When I asked my boyfriend who in their right mind would buy a puppy from a pet shop, he was amazed and wondered where else people might get them?

At the time I did not appreciate the vast distances in America, though NYC had to be within striking distance of decent breeders of any breed, and I was more fixated on how people were prepared to take silly chances for the sake of convenience. Now, having driven halfway across America and around much of southern Ontario, I can see that (as I argue above about dog breeding) things are really not that simple. In the UK we can travel for an hour or so to pick up a puppy, and if anyone wants one of mine I expect to meet them and their entire family before I even decide if they can have one. Your comment, Piff Poff, about the breeder in Red Deer just reminds me how much smaller a population there is in Canada and how much wider it is spread out. That certainly makes things harder, but there are ways around it. If you can get to know a breeder you feel you are happy about, even if only by email and phone, there may be some way a puppy can be moved part of the distance towards you by the breeder if he/she is planning to attend a show somewhere closer to where you live.

I got to know an American breeder by email and phone over a period of two years (she had bred my first dog's grandparents) and eventually she bought a bitch puppy from me when one was available. I flew her out to Texas aged 10 weeks, and this summer I will have a puppy back from her when she has her final litter. I am going to have to go to Texas to get it, as I want to pick my own, but my point is that having corresponded regularly for some time without meeting, we reached the stage where we felt we knew, and could trust, each other. Now, more than 10 years after we began to correspond we are good friends and are still working together.

The right dog is not like a bag of sugar to be picked up easily on a whim - if you do it the right way. Unfortunately, there are plenty of opportunities to acquire one through easier means. I hope you find your puppy Piff Poff, and I wish you all the best. In case you have not been to the CKC website, here is a link to their advice on finding the right breeder http://www.ckc.ca/en/Default.aspx?tabid=113.

The Chow Chow Club of Canada is in Brantford, Ontario, but they will have breeder members in all Provinces. If you contacted them, they can give you a list of breeders closer to you, and hopefully some of them will be keen on breed-specific health testing.

Club Name CHOW CHOW CLUB OF CANADA, INC.
Address 7A MORTON AVE E
City BRANTFORD
Province ON
Postal Code N3R 6C3
Phone Number (905) 902-2469

If anyone else is looking for a pedigree puppy of any breed, go the above link and search for the relevant breed club(s). If you are after a popular breed there may be more than one or two. The other thing you can do is search for a regional all breed society that holds shows in your area and just turn up at a dog show to find people with the breed you are interested in and speak to them in person.

And now in Blighty, it is time for a late breakfast!

:thumbsup:

Re: Crufts 2009
 

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong as a very wrong thing. Post all the fluff you want but that sort of interbreeding is indefensible. I hope you're not personally reproducing with your close male relatives.

Your claim that it's ok if you check the health of the puppies fails because it implies a willingness to breed and then kill of the ones that have obvious birth defects, presumably the majority. Worse than a puppy mill? Not better anyway.

Re: Crufts 2009
 

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion. And that is what it is -- an opinion. She has obviously done years and years of research into the subject and I would hazard a guess that her research has produced facts rather than opinions. I cannot agree that you can equate dogs with humans. In the past when humans married close relatives - absolutely no research was done into the traits that each possessed. That is why there were problems. It was indiscriminate in-breeding. This is not the case with the woman who is posting on here.

I don't know where you got the idea that she kills puppies that are not acceptable. Maybe I missed where she said that. My oldest shih-tzu was one of two in the litter. The other puppy was an albino and she gave it away to a friend of hers. She is also a responsible breeder and would never have put it down.

On a related subject, her pet shop comments resonated with me. I was at Petland (I think that is its name) they had unregistered pug puppies for something like $1,200. They were in a huge glass fish tank and the staff let small children, maybe 7 years old, haul these little puppies out and mess them around. I would only have taken the child dropping the puppy to cause a disaster - breaking its leg or worse. Responsible people do not buy puppies from Petland or similar places.

Re: Crufts 2009
 

IMO a good breeder would never sell pups to a pet store. I have owned dogs for over 30 years and the breeders I have used haven't had any trouble selling their pups. In fact most of the pups are sold before they are born.

It sickens me to see pups in cages in the stores...I'm glad it was banned in the UK decades ago.

Re: Crufts 2009
 

Amongst all the ranting, the points I've extracted above pretty much reflect what I think. The villain of the piece (not just a pantomime villain, but the root cause of much real suffering in many breeds of dogs) is the Kennel Club.

Of course, some breeders are less scrupulous than others; of course the majority are beyond reproach.

If dog breeding is a business venture, there are profit-over-ethics challenges in just the same way as with any other business venture, with the added complication that the victims of unethical practices can't answer back. But the unethical breeders only get away with it because the public is reassured by their membership of, and apparent endorsement by, the Kennel Club. Changing breed standards to limit health problems is one thing, and well overdue, but better oversight/policing of the entire business is also needed if public confidence is to be restored.

I haven't seen the documentary in question, but I can't see how the production company can be dismissed as a**holes if - despite what selective editing can achieve - they haven't misrepresented anybody's opinion. If they'd overstepped the mark there'd be writs for libel flying around: where are they?

I'd take issue with your later comment on the appropriateness of breeding close relatives: any untoward (and as yet undocumented) recessive genetic traits will be enhanced through in-breeding however many tests are done for known problems.

Re: Crufts 2009
 

In what way do the issues related to small gene pool differ between species?

She may breed only with her grandfather from one side of the family but it's necessarily unhealthy to have sex with your close relatives. How does she choose which one is the less likely to result in mutant children?

I infer that this breeder kills her mutant puppies. If that's not the case and she has a field full of five legged and two headed examples of why inbreeding is not a bright idea then I suppose we must congratulate her on her compassion.

Re: Crufts 2009
 

Haaaa!!

I can assure you I have not bred with either of my grandfathers!

I am sorry if I have had the temerity to hold a considered point of view rather than believing in sweeping statements, but to answer your query about whether I "kill" my puppies, or have any with 5 legs and 2 heads, the answer is no. What is termed incest according to the church/law in relation to humans is nothing of the kind where animals are concerned. Take a mating between grandfather and granddaughter for instance. If there are no other "doubled-up" matings on that side of the pedigree and all the ancestors on the other side are quite unrelated to each other, it is actually not that close at all. But obviouly there is no point in a discussion with you, as you are clearly not reasonable.

The reason I have not produced any 5 legged, 2 headed puppies is because I know all the individuals in their pedigrees, going back 5 or more generations, and I know who did, or did not, suffer from any illnesses, genetic or otherwise. I rule out any matings between individuals that might produce something untoward, even if they are unrelated and the chance itself might be quite small (as I mentioned in relation to my champion dog who will not be used at stud on anything). I am not just looking at the outside of the dog, I am looking at what is potentially inside and its very make-up. I cannot know everything, which is why I health test.

My dogs are living long and healthy lives - not just the ones I keep, but also the ones I sell, and I get Christmas cards and occasional photos and phone calls from the owners who let me know how they are all doing. The point I am trying to make here is that even if I mated completely unrelated dogs together I would not get better results. How many healthy 17 year old dogs do you know personally? Would I want some that lived to 19, 20? Would it even be possible just because they were not related? I don't think so. In any case, I don't exclusively breed relatives to relatives. Occasionally I have done, but I also breed from individuals that have no family relationship at all. Each potential mating is taken on its own merits and planned sometmes years ahead.

Here I will state that my breed is the Basenji, an ancient "primitive" breed that originated thousands of years ago in central Africa. It is a natural dog, not a man-made breed, and has survived for all this time in a harsh environment where survival of the fittest is very much a factor. They have been used as native hunting dogs for centuries, and if they don't hunt they don't eat. There is no veterinary care and they are also preyed on themselves by leopards and other predators. By the time some came out of Africa and were successfully bred from in England in the 1930s, they were by necessity a fit, healthy, and hardy breed. All the Basenjis around the world can trace their pedigrees right back to the jungle. All the early breeders kept extensive records and most of us now have personal knowledge of every recent individual in the pedigrees we are breeding from - in some cases for many generations. Hereditary problems have surfaced over time, but breed-specific tests exist to ensure that no puppies need be born with that illness. The other tests I do are general and could affect any breed.

Anyway, I did not post here to get into a row with someone who prefers to repeat tabloid/activist headlines rather than listen to reason and experience. I don't breed dogs for profit, I breed them because my hobby for a long time was competing at shows, and although I have scaled that down quite a bit because of getting ready to go to Canada, I am just as happy to see them lounging around the house or running in the woods as I am to see them win in the ring. I have often sold a puppy for less than the market rate just to see it go to a home I wanted it in. Commercial breeders have no such interest, so perhaps you could reserve your considerable bile for them.

As for everyone else out there - interesting debate! Can't remember who it was that made the comments about the production company not being a**holes because they didn't misquote or misrepresent any views. No they did not, you are quite right, but I still stick the label on them because they deliberately set out to cause a fuss, their intention was to present one side of the story only, and they denied a platform to anyone who didn't fit the brief they were constructing. Many of the people who naively, in my opinion, agreed to appear in the hope of showing a different side to dog breeders, had their segments edited unfairly or chopped altogether. There was a massive hoo-ha about it in the dog press here.

And now I must get ready for work.
:curse:

Re: Crufts 2009
 

I have just watched a very interesting Nat Geo programme of dogs and how all the different breeds came about - but thats a whole other ballgame!

Sayonara I have got a Chow, he also came from Red Deer, he is not registered and came from a family that has a male and female chow that they bred - they said by accident, but another litter appeared last year too. We were on the verge of importing a puppy from Washington DC, when I saw an ad in the local paper. We went to see the puppies, saw both parents and interacted with them for almost 3 hours, we were able to ask loads of questions and got lots of straight forward answers, Henry came home with us that day. I have since become a member on the Chow Chow forum and I know I am lucky to have such a healthy, happy chow. I also have learnt more about the answers to the questions I should ask, which is why I ran a mile from the 'registered breeder' I recently had contact with. Her 'kennels' couldn't be googled nor could her sire's nor could the parents of her Dame's. It all just made me run a mile and I just had a bad feeling and believe me $1200 for a pet quality dog that gives you a bad feeling in my opinion would be a $1200 mistake.

I could well adopt my next chow, with the hlep of other chow forum members, we could do a relay to get the chow upto Canada from one of the many animal rescues in the States. I do know at some point I want a squishy faced chow......Hell at some point I would like one of each colour:rofl: I would never buy from a pet store and I would never knowingly buy from a back yard breeder no matter how sorry for the puppy I felt as this just encourages the BYB to breed more unhealthy puppies.

Re: Crufts 2009
 

It sounds like you have your head screwed on Piff Poff, and I hope you get your squishy faced Chow (that's if they haven't been outlawed!). Only thing I would say is look at the potential health problems in Chows and their relative age of onset, and measure this against the age of any rescue Chow you choose to take on - that is if he/she does not come with health information. In Basenjis, pretty much the only thing that could take us by surprise in an adult would be Fanconi Syndrome (onset typically between 3-8 years). If someone rescued a 2 yr old, there would be no way of knowing what might be around the corner with regard to FS. The good news is that a genetic test has recently become available so there is no excuse for any Basenji born from 2008 onwards to suffer from it.

Best of luck with your Chowing! :D

Re: Crufts 2009
 

Hubby thinks that one day I'll get into showing and breeding, me I'm not so sure, maybe a small scale rescue, we'll see.....