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The country we left behind

The country we left behind

Old Nov 18th 2017, 4:04 am
  #46  
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Default Re: The country we left behind

Originally Posted by dave_j
It is difficult because people are by their nature selfish. What Thatcher was doing was to encourage a culture of state sponsored self with the inevitable results that we see today where the pay for some has reached absurd levels whilst those who support society by performing the more essential functions are paid less than some would say they are worth.

'Ah', I hear you say, 'It was ever thus and the UK isn't alone in this', and so it isn't but a more socially minded UK had seen some of these excesses held in check. Perhaps a sensible alternative would have been to have not encouraged personal greed at a state level while providing the means to fulfill it, human nature will do that all by itself.
Was it greed or self reliance? Ironically, it's not the state behind all this it's 'society'.
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Old Nov 18th 2017, 2:03 pm
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Default Re: The country we left behind

Originally Posted by dave_j
It is difficult because people are by their nature selfish. What Thatcher was doing was to encourage a culture of state sponsored self with the inevitable results that we see today where the pay for some has reached absurd levels whilst those who support society by performing the more essential functions are paid less than some would say they are worth.

'Ah', I hear you say, 'It was ever thus and the UK isn't alone in this', and so it isn't but a more socially minded UK had seen some of these excesses held in check. Perhaps a sensible alternative would have been to have not encouraged personal greed at a state level while providing the means to fulfill it, human nature will do that all by itself.
Well, if you read the entire article, you will realise that what you have stated there is nonsense and the part you have quoted doesn't state that at all. I would argue that it says that people should look to themselves, rather than others and that, once they have done so, they should look to help others. I don't see anything wrong with that.

The alternative is that everyone looks to the state to do everything for them.
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Old Nov 18th 2017, 5:06 pm
  #48  
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Default Re: The country we left behind

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
Well, if you read the entire article, you will realise that what you have stated there is nonsense and the part you have quoted doesn't state that at all. I would argue that it says that people should look to themselves, rather than others and that, once they have done so, they should look to help others. I don't see anything wrong with that.

The alternative is that everyone looks to the state to do everything for them.
Yep, I've read the Woman's Own interview and agree that nonsense could be a valid description and 'no change there' I hear you say. But I think I might have included an odd grain of truth somewhere.

As I see it Thatcher argues that she sees the state being held responsible for all ills and that some people have a relaxed attitude to taking responsibility for their actions and that this is a bad thing. She argues that, as you say, they should help themselves then help others. A corollary of this is that the state should roll back support and encourage personal responsibility.

She sees one area where the state can do this is by making people owners of wealth. She argues that this will give people a greater sense of personal responsibility and also the means by which they can support others, hence the sale of state assets and property to as many people as possible.

Laudable for it's simplicity but it fails to recognise that there isn't enough wealth around to fulfill the promise. It fails to address human nature, although it implicitly recognises that individuals will generally look out for themselves. Inevitably some will become benefit while others who haven't been fortunate enough to benefit from this largesse will suffer because the state will have removed support. The fortunate may choose to look after others or they may not and this freedom of will exposes the major difficulty with the argument.

I take your point that at one extreme the state does everything, but this model has failed and will always fail because human nature won't allow it to succeed. At the other extreme we have a model where the state does nothing. Although this model is more robust, it too will fail and lead to unrest and despotism.
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Old Nov 18th 2017, 5:37 pm
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Default Re: The country we left behind

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
I would argue that it says that people should look to themselves, rather than others and that, once they have done so, they should look to help others. I don't see anything wrong with that.
It could also be argued - very easily - that a "me first" attitude was encouraged and that sometimes me first means me only.
The alternative is that everyone looks to the state to do everything for them.
Actually there's plenty of room in between. I've never understood this view that people are happy for the state to do it all when it leaves them so little. Why would you settle for £70 a week (if you're lucky and even less if you're young) minus whatever you have to pay for your rent because your housing benefit doesn't cover the full amount and there's nowhere else to move to, be unable to afford to heat your damp, drafty bedsit etc
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Old Nov 18th 2017, 9:28 pm
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Default Re: The country we left behind

Originally Posted by BristolUK
It could also be argued - very easily - that a "me first" attitude was encouraged and that sometimes me first means me only.
OK, but that is not what the interview in the article argued for at all.

Originally Posted by BristolUK
Actually there's plenty of room in between. I've never understood this view that people are happy for the state to do it all when it leaves them so little. Why would you settle for £70 a week (if you're lucky and even less if you're young) minus whatever you have to pay for your rent because your housing benefit doesn't cover the full amount and there's nowhere else to move to, be unable to afford to heat your damp, drafty bedsit etc
You would have to ask those that accept that. I have always provided for myself as I wasn't prepared to accept that others should fund my lifestyle but I accept that others may be prepared to do so.
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Old Nov 18th 2017, 9:40 pm
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Default Re: The country we left behind

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
You would have to ask those that accept that.
My quibble isn't with those that live that lifestyle - whoever is "to blame" - it's with others.

When I said "I've never understood this view that people are happy for the state to do it all when it leaves them so little...." I meant I don't understand the people that hold that view, not the people themselves who suffer on so little.

I can only conclude that they believe benefit recipients to be much better off than they actually are, maybe because they've heard one or two anecdotal examples where someone has done okay out of it and think it's the norm.
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Old Dec 5th 2017, 9:30 pm
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Default Re: The country we left behind

Tory MP cries at universal credit impact speech from Frank Field
MP Heidi Allen wiped away tears as Labour’s Frank Field, the chair of the work and pensions select committee, described persuading a man not to kill himself, as well as another father telling him about his “lucky week” going to funeral “so they could finish off the food”.
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Old Dec 15th 2017, 2:31 am
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Default Re: The country we left behind

A week or so back I read a report that revealed half of properties bought under right to buy were now owned by private landlords.

And now this: Families with stable jobs at risk of homelessness in Britain, report finds
Homelessness is now a serious risk for working families with stable jobs who cannot find somewhere affordable to live after being evicted by private-sector landlords seeking higher rents, the local government ombudsman has warned.

Michael King said nurses, taxi drivers, hospitality staff and council workers were among those assisted by his office after being made homeless
If full time waged people can't afford/find other places, how the hell are lower income benefit recipients supposed to do so?
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Old Dec 15th 2017, 8:24 am
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Default Re: The country we left behind

Originally Posted by BristolUK
A week or so back I read a report that revealed half of properties bought under right to buy were now owned by private landlords.

And now this: Families with stable jobs at risk of homelessness in Britain, report finds


If full time waged people can't afford/find other places, how the hell are lower income benefit recipients supposed to do so?

Whilst corporations are making record profits and the stock market is booming we're also seeing more people in full time employment living in poverty.


People make all kinds of excuses for the economic system, but it is clearly flawed when an increasing number of people are left behind and a decreasing number are benefiting.


I don't think the future is very bright and it's all because of greed and corruption in western 'democracy'. Quite depressing really.
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Old Dec 15th 2017, 4:31 pm
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Default Re: The country we left behind

Originally Posted by BristolUK
If full time waged people can't afford/find other places, how the hell are lower income benefit recipients supposed to do so?
I suggest that you try to read "The ragged trousered philanthropist", a book so bleak in it's description of working people and their struggles that I was unable to finish it.

We live in an age where we no longer have "dark satanic mills" but we do grind away in their modern equivalents. We look back at mill owners and think of them as greedy but even they were forced to build model villages to house workers because they realised that working people needed places to live. I don't think they did this because they were benevalent but because it made economic sense. It'll need to happen today, but with a plentiful workforce out there the private sector sees no need to provide it's own low cost accomodation, it sees that as the state's function.

Council housing fufilled a need and it's loss allowed private rents to rise to levels that stretch their tenants financially. It was inevitable that buyers of council houses would die and their homes would be sold on, but who could buy them? Certainly not the less well off so they have become a cash cow of the private sector. It is an inevitable result of a policy concieved out of political dogma.

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Old Dec 15th 2017, 4:36 pm
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Default Re: The country we left behind

Originally Posted by dave_j
I suggest that you try to read "The ragged trousered philanthropist", a book so bleak in it's description of working people and their struggles that I was unable to finish it.

We live in an age where we no longer have "dark satanic mills" but we do grind away in their modern equivalents. We look back at mill owners and think of them as greedy but even they were forced to build model villages to house workers because they realised that working people needed places to live. I don't think they did this because they were benevalent but because it made economic sense. It'll need to happen today, but with a plentiful workforce out there the private sector sees no need to provide it's own low cost accomodation, it sees that as the state's function.

Council housing fufilled a need and it's loss allowed private rents to rise to levels that stretch their tenants financially. It was inevitable that buyers of council houses would die and their homes would be sold on, but who could buy them? Certainly not the less well off so they have become a cash cow of the private sector. It is an inevitable result of a policy concieved out of political dogma.
You're old enough to remember who's dogma.

Her name began with M.
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Old Dec 15th 2017, 5:36 pm
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Default Re: The country we left behind

Originally Posted by Novocastrian
You're old enough to remember who's dogma.
Her name began with M.
She must never be named....
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Old Dec 15th 2017, 5:37 pm
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Default Re: The country we left behind

Originally Posted by dave_j
I suggest that you try to read "The ragged trousered philanthropist"...
You say that as if I'd never heard of it.
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Old Dec 15th 2017, 8:00 pm
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Default Re: The country we left behind

I wonder what the Brexit situation would have been like if Maggie was still PM

There again if you were a serving soldier or police officer in those days then the Iron Lady was a very good PM. Granted if you were a coal miner you saw her in a different light and yet these days we prattle on about climate change and the need to find alternatives to fossil fuels. Perhaps she was a visionary after all.
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Old Dec 15th 2017, 10:09 pm
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Default Re: The country we left behind

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian
Perhaps she was a visionary after all.
I suspect you have a point. Elevating the police to become an arm of political policy, as it was during the miner's strike, will become, if it hasn't already, a necessary feature of governing a modern 'democracy'.
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