Coronavirus

Old Mar 26th 2022, 11:09 pm
  #6196  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Shard
Would it make a blind bit of difference? It might, as nonsensical as that seems. We can smell garlic, tobacco, alcohol from passersby, so it's not inconceivable that a contagious airborne particle could spread better without masks. However, I'm not necessarily advocating that. A balance has to be struck. We don't want to live our lives in Saran wrap.

My point was that in signalling an "all clear" (masks are up to you) the pendulum swings too far in the other direction. Hardly anyone wears masks, and the virus spreads (killing the old). Even for me, someone fairly risk averse on Covid, I rarely wear a mask. It's not that I want to, but I would be reluctantly willing to if others were. I bet I am not alone.

FWIW, most people I saw out and about yesterday were in masks. Some shops require masks.
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Old Mar 26th 2022, 11:42 pm
  #6197  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by dbd33
FWIW, most people I saw out and about yesterday were in masks. Some shops require masks.
Adherence does differ by locale and by demographics. England doesn't have shops requiring masks, except opticians that have NHS service agreements.
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Old Mar 26th 2022, 11:58 pm
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Shard
Adherence does differ by locale and by demographics. England doesn't have shops requiring masks, except opticians that have NHS service agreements.
The interesting case here is Home Depot. Masks are not required but the staff wear them and there are constant announcements asking customers to wear them. Everyone I saw was wearing one. Home Depot is owned by Trumpists.
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Old Mar 27th 2022, 12:06 am
  #6199  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by dbd33
The interesting case here is Home Depot. Masks are not required but the staff wear them and there are constant announcements asking customers to wear them. Everyone I saw was wearing one. Home Depot is owned by Trumpists.
Yes, that's interesting. Maybe older staff in HD? And given the dimensions of an HD (high ceilings etc) it's probably a low risk environment.
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Old Mar 27th 2022, 2:15 am
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by printer
People could meet up in groups and sit unmasked together for 2 hours or so and then head home to their possibly multigenerational household and mix unmasked with the family and any friends that popped in. The possibility of spreading the virus with the latest variants was huge.
No,not huge. The immediate possibility of spreading the virus was limited to that very small group of people sitting unmasked for two hours. That was a small group and a small risk compared to everyone not wearing a mask anywhere and everyone potentially spreading it.
On the plus side considering the stats the hospitals are not full of dying or ventilated people and the health service is not closed to anything but COVID as it was back in earlier times.
Those earlier times being when there were no vaccines and only partial vaccination numbers until they grew to present levels.
And now, the stats are showing very high numbers of deaths and hospitalisations again - with negative impacts on non covid patients. I don't know why people are playing this down. I must have posted several times here about the UK daily death figures in January 2022 that were higher than any single day since February 2021.


Originally Posted by Shard
...in signalling an "all clear" (masks are up to you) the pendulum swings too far in the other direction.
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Old Mar 27th 2022, 3:09 am
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Shard
Would it make a blind bit of difference? It might, as nonsensical as that seems. We can smell garlic, tobacco, alcohol from passersby, so it's not inconceivable that a contagious airborne particle could spread better without masks. However, I'm not necessarily advocating that. A balance has to be struck. We don't want to live our lives in Saran wrap.

My point was that in signalling an "all clear" (masks are up to you) the pendulum swings too far in the other direction. Hardly anyone wears masks, and the virus spreads (killing the old). Even for me, someone fairly risk averse on Covid, I rarely wear a mask. It's not that I want to, but I would be reluctantly willing to if others were. I bet I am not alone.
If you believe that mask wearing is good for you, and for others, why do you not wear one?
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Old Mar 27th 2022, 10:31 am
  #6202  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by dbd33
FWIW, most people I saw out and about yesterday were in masks. Some shops require masks.
I found the same. Perhaps its because Ontario is only a few days into not having to wear one and people haven't become cavalier about the risk yet.
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Old Mar 27th 2022, 1:07 pm
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by BristolUK
No,not huge. The immediate possibility of spreading the virus was limited to that very small group of people sitting unmasked for two hours. That was a small group and a small risk compared to everyone not wearing a mask anywhere and everyone potentially spreading it.

Those earlier times being when there were no vaccines and only partial vaccination numbers until they grew to present levels.
And now, the stats are showing very high numbers of deaths and hospitalisations again - with negative impacts on non covid patients. I don't know why people are playing this down. I must have posted several times here about the UK daily death figures in January 2022 that were higher than any single day since February 2021.


No it's not limited to those sitting unmasked. If we have 6 people, say 3 sets of couples that's three individual households that are potentially spreading to each other and then all go back to their individual homes and potentially spread it to all who live there and so on. This is pretty much how it spreads as we well know unless lockdowns and strict meet up limits are introduced. Yes nobody wearing one anywhere is obviously a bigger problem but it all depends on a multitude of factors. I was out today in a well spaced out shopping mall, some were wearing them some not, no issues really. I went to get a haircut and again some wearing them some not but in this case you have to consider a higher risk factor. I noticed with interest that as dbd33 said above all Home Depot staff were wearing them, clearly a company policy. Yet a quick visit to Natures Fare which is a health food store catering for anyone wanting to buy healthy foods, drinks and vitamins. Only very limited number of people wearing one yet you would have thought that this type of store would have some kind of policy in place and maybe recommendations on the door.
So if there is a high number of deaths and hospitalizations is the NHS about to stop all non urgent surgeries? Have they reached a critical point whereby patient and staff safety is a major concern?
To quote from the BBC article we had record numbers of over 4 million recorded yet the numbers in hospital and on ventilators is exceptionally small by comparison and i quote:A high number of infections means the UK can expect Covid hospitalisations to rise too, although vaccines are still helping to stop many severe cases, say experts.

According to the latest figures, there were 17,440 patients in hospital with the virus on 24 March. About half will have been admitted for something else, rather than Covid, but tested positive.

Just over 300 of them needed an intensive care bed with a ventilator to help them breathe.
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Old Mar 27th 2022, 1:25 pm
  #6204  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by printer
Yet a quick visit to Natures Fare which is a health food store catering for anyone wanting to buy healthy foods, drinks and vitamins. Only very limited number of people wearing one yet you would have thought that this type of store would have some kind of policy in place and maybe recommendations on the door.

Just over 300 of them needed an intensive care bed with a ventilator to help them breathe.
On the first paragraph, no, I would not expect a health food store to enforce healthy policies. Health food, naturopaths, people involved in alternative medicine tend more toward libertarian concepts and far right positions than they do to support public health. They are necessarily opposed to science as the potions and remedies they peddle are, in fact, nonsensical, and they need their customers to be ill informed.

300 patients on ventilators seems a scary number. Is there another condition that puts so many patients in intensive care? What are the numbers for RTAs and stabbings?
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Old Mar 28th 2022, 12:05 am
  #6205  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
If you believe that mask wearing is good for you, and for others, why do you not wear one?
Laziness. Forgetfulness. Inconvenience. Social norms. Poor excuses, I should wear one. That is rather the point I'm making.
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Old Mar 28th 2022, 12:25 am
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by printer
No it's not limited to those sitting unmasked. If we have 6 people, say 3 sets of couples that's three individual households that are potentially spreading to each other and then all go back to their individual homes
Yes, but you have ignored where I said compared to everyone else.
Ask yourself, what is the greater number of people - those dining out or those not dining out. It's the later. So the tiny minority of people dining out maskless would constitute a far lesser threat than if everyone else was going maskless willy-nilly.
So if there is a high number of deaths and hospitalizations is the NHS about to stop all non urgent surgeries?
It's more about getting them going again isn't it? There's a ton of statistics to show that patients haven't even been going to hospital as they previously did. Maybe there's been a cure for cancer and people haven't been getting it.

Have they reached a critical point whereby patient and staff safety is a major concern?
Yes, if you believe people on the ground, in the know, instead of politicians with all their 'world beating' claptrap.
A record number of more than 400 employees in NHS England are quitting their jobs every week...

One NHS intensive care consultant recently tweeted: “We started the pandemic with 17 ICU consultants. Over the last 24 months, two have retired, one has resigned, one is on long-term sabbatical, three have been off for long periods with stress – all needed psych support.” Clearly there isn’t a hope of reducing the 6.2 million-strong waiting list in England with staff attrition like that.

The bottom line is that the NHS is not coping much better now than it was at Covid’s peaks. We are drowning – in Covid patients, cancer patients, the patients on the waiting list backlogs, and the patients whose conditions have become infinitely more complex and harmful because they’ve been waiting so long.
To quote from the BBC article we had record numbers of over 4 million recorded yet the numbers in hospital and on ventilators is exceptionally small by comparison and i quote:A high number of infections means the UK can expect Covid hospitalisations to rise too, although vaccines are still helping to stop many severe cases, say experts.
Yes we all know that it's "mild" and that vaccines help. We also know that means bad outcomes are much less likely.
But while it's infecting people at a far higher rate than previously, the same rate of bad outcomes results in a higher number of deaths. Hence that fact about January including the highest daily death total since February 2021. How many times does that need to be repeated?


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Old Mar 28th 2022, 1:09 pm
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by dbd33
On the first paragraph, no, I would not expect a health food store to enforce healthy policies. Health food, naturopaths, people involved in alternative medicine tend more toward libertarian concepts and far right positions than they do to support public health. They are necessarily opposed to science as the potions and remedies they peddle are, in fact, nonsensical, and they need their customers to be ill informed.

300 patients on ventilators seems a scary number. Is there another condition that puts so many patients in intensive care? What are the numbers for RTAs and stabbings?
I don't know but the figures they were stating were over 4 million cases and counting so in essence 300 is a minute percentage of those 4 million plus people who have it. It's also a small number considering the population of UK.
I suspect that stabbings in UK are much higher in hospital admissions, although not necessarily ICU, particularly in London and other major cities.
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Old Mar 28th 2022, 1:30 pm
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by BristolUK
Yes, but you have ignored where I said compared to everyone else.
Ask yourself, what is the greater number of people - those dining out or those not dining out. It's the later. So the tiny minority of people dining out maskless would constitute a far lesser threat than if everyone else was going maskless willy-nilly.

It's more about getting them going again isn't it? There's a ton of statistics to show that patients haven't even been going to hospital as they previously did. Maybe there's been a cure for cancer and people haven't been getting it.


Yes, if you believe people on the ground, in the know, instead of politicians with all their 'world beating' claptrap.


Yes we all know that it's "mild" and that vaccines help. We also know that means bad outcomes are much less likely.
But while it's infecting people at a far higher rate than previously, the same rate of bad outcomes results in a higher number of deaths. Hence that fact about January including the highest daily death total since February 2021. How many times does that need to be repeated?
So what does this all mean? They lifted restrictions too early and people are dying and or not getting healthcare they need. Governments are ignoring health bosses and plunging the NHS into crisis and more people are suffering and not getting healthcare they need. NHS workers are jumping ship due to stress and burnout and not enough new ones to replace them and all the while there is a massive backlog to deal with.
We know that the only way to seriously reduce the numbers is lockdowns and strict capacity limits. We also know that most people don't really want that and the government has pretty much said they wouldn't go there again so where does that leave us? Putting masks back on again in indoor spaces is not going to save the NHS or seriously reduce the 4 million plus people who have contracted it, it's just not. I would suggest the NHS has been on its knees and working at 90% plus capacity for years and staffing shortages were always going to happen as nurses and doctors became disillusioned with the hours and the pay, COVID just exasperated it. Of course the only way to work through the backlog is to increase manpower but with that option on shaky ground its more likely increased working hours and weekend working will be the way forward effectively putting even more pressure on the remaining staff. I don't know what the answer is but it doesn't seem like the UK government is bothered by it.
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Old Mar 28th 2022, 10:38 pm
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by printer
So what does this all mean? They lifted restrictions too early and people are dying and or not getting healthcare they need. Governments are ignoring health bosses and plunging the NHS into crisis and more people are suffering and not getting healthcare they need. NHS workers are jumping ship due to stress and burnout and not enough new ones to replace them and all the while there is a massive backlog to deal with.
We know that the only way to seriously reduce the numbers is lockdowns and strict capacity limits. We also know that most people don't really want that and the government has pretty much said they wouldn't go there again so where does that leave us? Putting masks back on again in indoor spaces is not going to save the NHS or seriously reduce the 4 million plus people who have contracted it, it's just not. I would suggest the NHS has been on its knees and working at 90% plus capacity for years and staffing shortages were always going to happen as nurses and doctors became disillusioned with the hours and the pay, COVID just exasperated it. Of course the only way to work through the backlog is to increase manpower but with that option on shaky ground its more likely increased working hours and weekend working will be the way forward effectively putting even more pressure on the remaining staff. I don't know what the answer is but it doesn't seem like the UK government is bothered by it.

It doesn't seem anyone in the UK is bothered by it either.... not anyone I speak to anyway, my sister says you would never know covid ever existed there now, pubs are packed, lockdowns are a distant memory and you may see an occasional mask wearer.... people are getting covid obviously, but its more if a roll your eyes, oh John isn't at work today he has covid......then.... hey what a nice day it is today and a weather conversation ensues....
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Old Mar 28th 2022, 11:15 pm
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd
It doesn't seem anyone in the UK is bothered by it either.... not anyone I speak to anyway, my sister says you would never know covid ever existed there now, pubs are packed, lockdowns are a distant memory and you may see an occasional mask wearer.... people are getting covid obviously, but its more if a roll your eyes, oh John isn't at work today he has covid......then.... hey what a nice day it is today and a weather conversation ensues....
I don't dispute this as I can well believe it.

It's perhaps another indication how selfish, uncaring and blinkered many in the nation have become. Just an extension of Brexit and cheering on the liars and thieves in the present government.

Last edited by BristolUK; Mar 28th 2022 at 11:23 pm. Reason: word correction
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