Coronavirus

Old Jan 12th 2022, 12:10 pm
  #5866  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
I wished to avoid the discussion that I anticipated would go along the lines of, "X are vaccinated, Y are unvaccinated so the proportion of those that are not causing issues with the healthcare is higher for those that are vaccinated than those unvaccinated."
Yes but when you actually point out the figures are skewed for that very reason how can you expect it to go ignored?
Using actual numbers in hospital though, those that are vaccinated are taking up more beds than those without the vaccine, in Alberta. I keep a close watch on those figures. I have no idea what the proportion is in Quebec. Using your figures above, 2/3 of the hospital cases in Quebec are those that are vaccinated.
You know full well that if the vaccinated/unvaccinated numbers were even then the far greater number of covid patients in hospital would be unvaccinated. So we're back to it being safer to drive drunk than sober because "using actual numbers" more accidents are caused by the sober drivers.
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Old Jan 12th 2022, 12:17 pm
  #5867  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
I wished to avoid the discussion that I anticipated would go along the lines of, "X are vaccinated, Y are unvaccinated so the proportion of those that are not causing issues with the healthcare is higher for those that are vaccinated than those unvaccinated."

Using actual numbers in hospital though, those that are vaccinated are taking up more beds than those without the vaccine, in Alberta. I keep a close watch on those figures. I have no idea what the proportion is in Quebec. Using your figures above, 2/3 of the hospital cases in Quebec are those that are vaccinated.
Are the figures for at least two vaccines? Any separate figure for ICU admissions?
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Old Jan 12th 2022, 11:22 pm
  #5868  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

[QUOTE=bats;13087721]you make some valid points but I'm still opposed to the idea. And not can I think of an alternative.

Originally Posted by Mordko
Facts beg to differ. Higher taxes on cigarettes and alcohol are there because of negative impacts on health. So says the government. These taxes are jacked up using Health Canada recommendations.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cig...pott-1.4410518

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/new-...dget-1.5393362

I think the case of cigarette taxes helping public healthcare isn’t as strong though. In the case of Covid vaccination we have a public health emergency, the system isn’t coping, so the logic is more obvious and sound.[/QUOTE

Still uncomfortable with the idea. As AC says someone could be unvaccinated and exercising caution so shoukd they be penalised?


I see where you are coming from coming from aswell... and I don't think the tax method is the right way, plus as AC says not sure if it would even stand up in court as a law... maybe its just been put out there as an "encouragement" and they have no intention of imposing such a tax... it was on the news last night that after LeGault mentioned that 7000 Quebecers signed up for their first dose!. All I know is that something needs to be done,

I get the smoking drinking obeisty health thing and how that can be a burden on the health care system.... but the big difference is, it doesn't overwhelm the health system to the point of no beds being available.... and other life threatening surgeries are cancelled as a result of that, I find that grossly unfair just because someone didn't get vaccinated. I know some people are being cautious and a not necessarily antivax, I am cautious.. .I question myself if it was the right thing to do, I have never even had a flu jab but the way I see it, is that its a risk either way.... risk taking the vax, or don't take it and risk getting sick with covid, its unpredictable....particulary if you are not vaccinated.

These are not normal times, so we cant apply normal rules to getting vaxxed or not... if I were the government, I would stick with pro choice... get vaxxed, don't get vaxxed, but if you get sick, we are not delaying surgery on this person that needs it now or will die, to treat you who chose not be vaxxed. Your choice...be cautious, but don't take it for granted your going to be treated. I know that's harsh, but just put yourself in the shoes or the family's shoes of a person that has died because their surgery was cancelled. That really does bother me.

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Old Jan 13th 2022, 1:34 am
  #5869  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by BristolUK
Yes but when you actually point out the figures are skewed for that very reason how can you expect it to go ignored?
Here we go again. The figures in Alberta show that more vaccinated than unvaccinated have tested positive and are in hospital. The reference I made to skewing was to show that I acknowledge that those, like you, that wish to avoid this fact, will likely make reference to the % of vaccinated versus the % of unvaccinated. I don't dispute that. You can do whatever you want to with the facts to support whatever argument you wish to make, but the facts are the facts. On pure numbers, the vaccinated are placing more of a burden upon the health system than the unvaccinated.

Originally Posted by BristolUK
You know full well that if the vaccinated/unvaccinated numbers were even then the far greater number of covid patients in hospital would be unvaccinated. So we're back to it being safer to drive drunk than sober because "using actual numbers" more accidents are caused by the sober drivers.
So what? If my auntie had bollocks she would be my uncle. The numbers clearly show that, in jurisdictions referred to above, there are more vaccinated than unvaccinated in hospital and, if my understanding is correct, it is those in hospital that are causing the burden upon healthcare.
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Old Jan 13th 2022, 1:44 am
  #5870  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

“Would it even stand up in a court of law” is a red herring.

I don’t specialize in the relevant field of law in Quebec. Its a very specialized field. Doubt anyone else here does. Not sure me doubting that Einstein’s theory of relativity in a random chatroom would be taken seriously. How does it make sense to discuss intricacies of very specific pieces of legislation when (lets be honest here) none of us even read the unique codes and laws of Quebec? Who can enlighten me on the intricacies of Charte des droits et libertés de la personne? Wouldn’t it be stupid saying “Bezukhov was wrong” if you haven’t read War and Peace? How is this different?

All we can do is express our amateur opinions on whether the proposal to tax the unvaxxed is fair and reasonable. I think the case for that is overwhelming just by the fact that the healthcare system isn’t coping and the risk of burdening it further is more than 10 times higher if you are unvaccinated.

“I have never had a flu jab” is missing the context. This isn’t about you. This is about public health. Its an emergency. Flu isn’t.

Last edited by Mordko; Jan 13th 2022 at 1:49 am.
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Old Jan 13th 2022, 1:46 am
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd
you make some valid points but I'm still opposed to the idea. And not can I think of an alternative.





I see where you are coming from coming from aswell... and I don't think the tax method is the right way, plus as AC says not sure if it would even stand up in court as a law... maybe its just been put out there as an "encouragement" and they have no intention of imposing such a tax... it was on the news last night that after LeGault mentioned that 7000 Quebecers signed up for their first dose!. All I know is that something needs to be done,

I get the smoking drinking obeisty health thing and how that can be a burden on the health care system.... but the big difference is, it doesn't overwhelm the health system to the point of no beds being available.... and other life threatening surgeries are cancelled as a result of that, I find that grossly unfair just because someone didn't get vaccinated. I know some people are being cautious and a not necessarily antivax, I am cautious.. .I question myself if it was the right thing to do, I have never even had a flu jab but the way I see it, is that its a risk either way.... risk taking the vax, or don't take it and risk getting sick with covid, its unpredictable....particulary if you are not vaccinated.
Have you actually looked the figures, nationwide, for surgeries cancelled during normal times versus surgeries cancelled during C-19? I accept that there are more and I accept that, if it was your surgery that was cancelled, you would be pissed. But surgeries being cancelled is a fact of the healthcare system. Are you able to show that, in any jurisdiction in Canada, over the last 2 years, no beds were available as a result of C-19, rather than some Provinces transferring patients to another to ease the burden (I accept that this is not good too)? It is my belief, and I appreciate that I may be wrong, that this has not happened in Canada.

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd
These are not normal times, so we cant apply normal rules to getting vaxxed or not... if I were the government, I would stick with pro choice... get vaxxed, don't get vaxxed, but if you get sick, we are not delaying surgery on this person that needs it now or will die, to treat you who chose not be vaxxed. Your choice...be cautious, but don't take it for granted your going to be treated. I know that's harsh, but just put yourself in the shoes or the family's shoes of a person that has died because their surgery was cancelled. That really does bother me.
That is not the way triage works. Should we refuse to treat the drunk driver that should be first in the line for surgery to treat "an all around good person" whose surgery is not anywhere near as immediate? Should we refuse to treat an unvaccinated person in need of ventilation to treat a habitual drug addict that has repeated attended for resuscitation when they need resuscitating again? Do you really believe that a 26 year old, C-19 survivor is really more of a burden upon the healthcare system than a 85 year old, triple vaxxed person with loads of co-morbidities, when they both contract C-19?

Last edited by Almost Canadian; Jan 13th 2022 at 2:49 am.
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Old Jan 13th 2022, 1:58 am
  #5872  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

there are more vaccinated than unvaccinated in hospital and, if my understanding is correct, it is those in hospital that are causing the burden upon healthcare.
More sober people have car accidents but claiming that drunk driving is wonderful for the safety of our roads and its unreasonable to have measures against drinking and driving would be a logical fallacy.

The issue here is risk. The fact fully vaccinated take less than half ICU spaces in Ontario is remarkable and shows how massively the risk is reduced by being vaxxed. I don’t have data on Quebec but its the same for every place which has data.
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Old Jan 13th 2022, 2:12 am
  #5873  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by bats
Are the figures for at least two vaccines? Any separate figure for ICU admissions?
I believe so but, IIRC, the ICU figures cover a period of the last 120 days.
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Old Jan 13th 2022, 2:24 am
  #5874  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

There seems to be a problem with the quotes. Please check your post after posting, if the quotes are ‘cocked up’, please either correct it or delete the quote. Thank you.
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Old Jan 13th 2022, 4:32 am
  #5875  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
Have you actually looked the figures, nationwide, for surgeries cancelled during normal times versus surgeries cancelled during C-19? I accept that there are more and I accept that, if it was your surgery that was cancelled, you would be pissed. But surgeries being cancelled is a fact of the healthcare system. Are you able to show that, in any jurisdiction in Canada, over the last 2 years, no beds were available as a result of C-19, rather than some Provinces transferring patients to another to ease the burden (I accept that this is not good too)? It is my belief, and I appreciate that I may be wrong, that this has not happened in Canada.



That is not the way triage works. Should we refuse to treat the drunk driver that should be first in the line for surgery to treat "an all around good person" whose surgery is not anywhere near as immediate? Should we refuse to treat an unvaccinated person in need of ventilation to treat a habitual drug addict that has repeated attended for resuscitation when they need resuscitating again? Do you really believe that a 26 year old, C-19 survivor is really more of a burden upon the healthcare system than a 85 year old, triple vaxxed person with loads of co-morbidities, when they both contract C-19?
Even a handful of surgeries being cancelled and people die as a result are too many when there is something we can do about this.

The example you have given me are the same argument as before...the drug addict, the drunk driver, the smoking lung cancer victim, these are isolated cases that don't clog up the medical system as opposed to unvaccinated people in hospitals now, and no I haven't studied the figures, I just listen to the news who report that 50% of hospital cases in Ontario are unvaccinated people?? ....(yes that could be wrong, I have my views on modern media reporting and how they make things sound a lot worse, but that's a separate argument). I think I am probably biased as a friend's relative had their surgery delayed and now its inoperable, if that was one of my family I would be a bit more than pissed.
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Old Jan 13th 2022, 5:07 am
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Default Re: Coronavirus

The example you have given me are the same argument as before...the drug addict, the drunk driver, the smoking lung cancer victim
And nobody is talking about NOT treating Covid patients whether vaxxed or not.

The proposal is for extra tax. Of course drunk drivers do get fined, whether they cause an accident or not. And people buying cigarettes pay a lot of extra tax over and above any other product (except alcohol). Taxing bad behaviour is nothing new.
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Old Jan 13th 2022, 6:28 am
  #5877  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Mordko
Taxing bad behaviour is nothing new.
Don't get me started on federal prisons. $115k a year to keep a male in a federal Canadian prison. Even more for a woman.
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Old Jan 13th 2022, 11:51 am
  #5878  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian
On pure numbers, the vaccinated are placing more of a burden upon the health system than the unvaccinated.
And on pure numbers sober drivers cause more car accidents than drunk drivers. Would you go round telling people that sober drivers place more of a burden on the emergency services than drunk ones?


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Old Jan 13th 2022, 6:50 pm
  #5879  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Gozit
I disagree. I do not think this will pass muster to a Charter challenge.

Who is liable if someone is forced to get vaccinated and then subsequently is one of the few people that have a critical reaction to the vaccine?
Who is liable if a cancer patient is unable to get a bed as a (politically) unvaccinated is using it ? Where will the greater number of unnecessary deaths occur ?
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Old Jan 13th 2022, 6:51 pm
  #5880  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by BristolUK
And on pure numbers sober drivers cause more car accidents than drunk drivers. Would you go round telling people that sober drivers place more of a burden on the emergency services than drunk ones?
Great analogy
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