Coronavirus

Old Dec 3rd 2021, 10:07 pm
  #5491  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Tirytory
For the most part, new cases are skewed towards three quaters or two thirds of cases are unvaccinated with the odd day producing more. There still is a clear trend towards unvaccinated contributing to cases still rising, but more importantly the people getting sick/very sick and ending up in hospital are predominantly all unvaccinated.
Just under half the people who tested positive were vaccinated, according to the stats.. 442/1031 were vaccinated.. (27 partially vaccinated; 504/1031 unvaccinated and 58 unknown.... so it would appear that the vaccinated are also contributing to those numbers.... agreed on the chances of getting seriously ill are increased in the unvaccinated, understandably

Last edited by Siouxie; Dec 3rd 2021 at 10:09 pm.
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Old Dec 3rd 2021, 10:20 pm
  #5492  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Tirytory
For the most part, new cases are skewed towards three quaters or two thirds of cases are unvaccinated with the odd day producing more. There still is a clear trend towards unvaccinated contributing to cases still rising, but more importantly the people getting sick/very sick and ending up in hospital are predominantly all unvaccinated.
I’m hearing roughly 50/50 vaxxed and unvaxxed. The question is…how ill are the vaxxed people.
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Old Dec 3rd 2021, 11:02 pm
  #5493  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

but it is the amount of cases that gives mutation such a great chance and therefore new varients to arise, so the more cases, from vaxed or unvaxed people raise the possibility of new mutated varient versions of the disease.

Prolly everyone should isolate, mask up and social distance as much as possible to stop the SarsCov2 from spreading.
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Old Dec 4th 2021, 1:29 am
  #5494  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

I see the Sun was running a doom and gloom story allegedly saying scientists predict another 5 years of this each Xmas until it changes to an endemic. Further stories of rising cases and Ireland has now closed nightclubs and brought back social distancing in pubs with no bar service and 50% capacity at events. Also in Ireland maximum 4 households mixing although quite how they are going to police that i don't know.
Meanwhile in BC we continually see the same old blurb every day now, number of cases and the split between areas in BC and also vaxxed versus unvaxxed. Is anybody really now paying any attention to these figures? Do we need daily updates? Weekly would be fine unless we are seeing serious increases in deaths or people in ICU we don't need to know that today there were 97 cases in the interior region, it means nothing, in fact it sounds like we should be released of all restrictions with those numbers. The population of the Interior health region as of 2016 was 961,000 people and we are headlining 97 cases of the virus!!!!
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Old Dec 4th 2021, 5:08 pm
  #5495  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Jerseygirl
For the first time since May, yesterday’s Covid cases reached over 1K

https://www.cp24.com/news/ontario-re...2021-1.5692286
What bothers me is all this hysteria and panic reaction towards infections, as waves will continue to come and go. The media is also contributing to this, like the headline of CP24 could also make reference to those who are infected but vaccinated and not needing an ICU admission. To get that information, one has to do a bit of reading....

What should rather happen is a stronger focus on vaccination, pushing Canada's vaccination rate up, to say 97 or 98 %, ideally to 100%. In my opinion Canada's vaccination rate could also be higher, even though it's high. Also the focus on the 3rd shot should have come way sooner, some EU countries offered it already one month ago, after 4 months after the 2nd shot. I also dislike using the word "booster", it should be known it's a 3rd shot, as part of 3 vaccinations, and then regular updates.

For the vaccinated ones the infections result in way milder cases, and ICU admissions can be avoided by well over 90%, Omicron or not.

Ultimately the virus will stay, but cases will be mild, once the vaccination rates are up. Currently the only thing that works is vaccination and masks. For testing I only see a point in that, when one visits old and frail people, like visiting an elderly care home, or somebody in hospital.
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Old Dec 4th 2021, 6:16 pm
  #5496  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by OrangeMango
What should rather happen is a stronger focus on vaccination, pushing Canada's vaccination rate up, to say 97 or 98 %, ideally to 100%.
I agree. But how?
Collective responsibility has been quite good. Incentives or carrots don't seem to be doing much. If doctors and other medical people have been refusing in such numbers so as to affect patient care what hope is there of jabbing everyone else?
In my opinion Canada's vaccination rate could also be higher, even though it's high. Also the focus on the 3rd shot should have come way sooner, some EU countries offered it already one month ago
On the other hand while Canada was originally vaccinating from age 12 those other countries were originally vaccinating from a higher age. So while Canada maybe behind on booster shots it's ahead on shots for many kids.

Incidentally, what's wrong with Booster? If Covid is hanging around long term won't it be easier to call it a booster rather than, say, 11th or 12th?
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Old Dec 5th 2021, 11:13 am
  #5497  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by BristolUK
I agree. But how?
Collective responsibility has been quite good. Incentives or carrots don't seem to be doing much. If doctors and other medical people have been refusing in such numbers so as to affect patient care what hope is there of jabbing everyone else?

On the other hand while Canada was originally vaccinating from age 12 those other countries were originally vaccinating from a higher age. So while Canada maybe behind on booster shots it's ahead on shots for many kids.

Incidentally, what's wrong with Booster? If Covid is hanging around long term won't it be easier to call it a booster rather than, say, 11th or 12th?
I would for a beginning start a public discourse of the cost of an ICU unit, and how much every day costs on average to treat a Covid patient. As a financial guidance I would consider using "Diagnostic Related Groups" which is basically intended to put a financial figure to the diagnosis and the treatment.

It is also a fact that a vaccinated patient has way milder Covid symptoms and the likelyhood needing an ICU bed in a hospital drops to around 90% and more. Thus I think there should be a public discourse that unvaccinated either have to pay a fine for refusing the vaccine or a higher premium or get that cost of the treatment later on deducted from their salary. It'll work like higher car premiums for reckless drivers with lot's of demerit points. Still even a careful driver can have an accident, but is still less likely to do so, than a reckless driver.

In the end, it's simply not fair for the vaccinated to constantly foot the bill for the unvaccinated and politics refusing to speak about it. Just to give you an idea, independent from my opinion, just search on google for the cost of the vaccine and the cost of an ICU unit per day for a Covid infection and you will understand my point. Also we certainly don't have a vaccine shortage problem so there is no reason not to be vaccinated at all.

The thought "better safe than sorry" should only be vaccination, masks and hand washing, - and not going crazy hysterical or panicky about new variants or dreaming up new travel restrictions and other form filling or testing requirements. Vaccinated Canadians should have their freedom back and to whatever they please, it's also good for the economy.

I would only mandate testing for visiting somebody in a hospital or senior / elderly care home.

Yes, that's true, Canada did start vaccinating children earlier, also the air filters in schools seem to be something Canada is doing better on as well.

Last edited by OrangeMango; Dec 5th 2021 at 11:21 am.
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Old Dec 5th 2021, 4:24 pm
  #5498  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by printer
I think if dbd33 was in charge they wouldn't be allowed food or meds, they would be under permanent house arrest.
Yes.
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Old Dec 5th 2021, 6:42 pm
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by OrangeMango
I would for a beginning start a public discourse of the cost of an ICU unit, and how much every day costs on average to treat a Covid patient. As a financial guidance I would consider using "Diagnostic Related Groups" which is basically intended to put a financial figure to the diagnosis and the treatment.
Yes, that's a good idea. It's a bit like the notices that I've seen in hospitals about how much it costs (wastes) when people don't bother keeping appointments.
I just looked it up, aware of the campaign for a few years in NB, and there's a report from 2015 that says missed appointments were halved following the campaign. I see they're having another campaign because it looks like numbers missing appointments went up again
But, yes, that could be worth doing. I can imagine the die-hards might say "so what, it's my tax dollars" but at least others might be better armed to persuade them if the authorities can't.
Of course that's usually followed by "what about treating smokers" and the other stuff considered to be self inflicted.
It is also a fact that a vaccinated patient has way milder Covid symptoms and the likelyhood needing an ICU bed in a hospital drops
Yes, I think that's well known and it ought to be a persuasive argument. It just doesn't seem to be enough for some. No idea why.

Thus I think there should be a public discourse that unvaccinated either have to pay a fine for refusing the vaccine or a higher premium or get that cost of the treatment later on deducted from their salary. It'll work like higher car premiums for reckless drivers with lot's of demerit points. Still even a careful driver can have an accident, but is still less likely to do so, than a reckless driver.
Back to treating the smokers and people who drink or are obese again. But I think it could be passed off as unique to Covid because hospitals and/or ICU have never been likely to become overwhelmed for other patients as they may be with Covid.
In the end, it's simply not fair for the vaccinated to constantly foot the bill for the unvaccinated and politics refusing to speak about it.
I mostly pay attention for my province and the UK. The latter has a government run by clowns and the corrupt. In NB there is plenty of discourse about the willingly unvaccinated hindering everyone else. I think that's why it's generally been well handled here.
The thought "better safe than sorry" should only be vaccination, masks and hand washing, - and not going crazy hysterical or panicky about new variants or dreaming up new travel restrictions and other form filling or testing requirements. Vaccinated Canadians should have their freedom back and to whatever they please, it's also good for the economy.
Depends on what 'freedoms' are meant.
Less likely that the vaccinated pass covid on and less likely they will suffer if they do get it. But that still means it can be got and passed on and while that happens there's plenty of potential for the variants and the need to adjust vaccines or frequency. Every time the health people say something like "70% of Covid patients in hospital are unvaccinated" that means 30% have been vaccinated yet still fell ill enough to be hospitalised or in ICU.

Vaccination is clearly the right thing to do but I don't think it gives anyone the right to behave in a way that still damages "that 30%" who have the misfortune to be older, less healthy or just unlucky in some other way. I'm not saying shut everything down. There must be some sort of compromise.

I have to keep reminding myself that (from what people have said) Ontario seems to have been "closed" until this year whereas once the first few weeks of Covid had passed, a period in which things were tight here - travel restrictions across province borders and the like - almost everything was back open around May 2020. Homesense, not the most essential of stores has been open since that initial few weeks.

We were free to go to restaurants (restricted capacity, leave contact details) in May 2020. When you can do most everything you always did in some form I don't see why one can't accept a few limitations elsewhere. Travel has always been a major source of spread, especially the problematic variants.
All NB's cases last year were travel related and that was with restrictions in place. Imagine if there'd been a free-for-all like other places.

Is it so hard to travel less or not at all? I had planned to take the family here (Canadians) to Europe last year. My eldest brother was going to join us for a part of it and bring my mother. I haven't seen him since I left the UK in 2004 and her since she visited Christmas 2005.

I just had to accept it wasn't going to happen and then he got ill and died a couple of months back and health issues generally make anything else unlikely. I'm still in touch with mum and two other brothers and a couple of friends but there will be no visits. My friend gets frustrated at not being able to go abroad for the usual 2 or 3 times a year, although he did manage two weeks in Croatia. He's increased the number of weekends or weeks away in the UK he used to do. London, the Lake District, lots of day trips, goes to pubs, gigs, dines out. He doesn't get his guaranteed dose of sun but he has the flexibility to take advantage of it when it comes.

Losing the ability to (conveniently) go abroad as often as previously is a small price to pay for being able to do all those other things and avoid a bad outcome of covid.




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Old Dec 5th 2021, 9:58 pm
  #5500  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

I think things depend very much on personal circumstances, and a compromise for one is never a compromise for the other, it's often not even a meeting in the middle. This is why all these disagreements exist, even clashes in the streets of some European cities for various reason.

Losing the ability to conveniently travel is the biggest challenge I've ever faced, and travel also doesn't mean vacation for me, - often it's some kind of work, but not employment, to do things, I simply can't leave to others.
And then you see full football / hockey/ baseball, basketball / soccer stadiums here and there, no masks, no testing, who knows if they are all vaccinated, and it makes you think whether all that filling out locator forms, arrive apps and whatever pre or after travel testing and overpriced quarantine hotels is necessary, especially if transmission is strongly community based.

Also fines for not complying with travel restrictions and or the connected bureaucracy or home isolation is sanctioned with heavy fines, however refusing the now widely available vaccine and then in the case of an infection occupying a ICU bed for 14 days and you don't pay a single thing, - that's what I call strongly disproportionate and simply not fair. Remember the final of the Euro 2021 in the Wembley arena? And how some gotten in, not even tickets? And no fines?

Travel restrictions worked way back, when Italy had a very very high number of cases, and other countries like Austria didn't, but the objective would ultimately only have been to flatten the curve and help other countries prepare for emergencies..Also the omicron variant has been recorded way before recently, even in Europe, it was simply not discovered.
Lockdowns and travel restrictions also hurt the economy a lot more, and that public discourse hasn't even been had at this point, countries like Australia and NZ also paid a very high price couldn't keep the virus out and had a lamentable vaccination rate especially in the beginning. Regarding the most isolated country North Korea, we don't even know, but I doubt they kept the virus out and are faring well in the pandemic.

Ultimately we all have to live with Covid, it's endemic everywhere these days and there should be no reason for you not to travel back to the UK and then to Canada again, provided you're vaccinated.

Last edited by OrangeMango; Dec 5th 2021 at 10:37 pm.
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Old Dec 5th 2021, 11:58 pm
  #5501  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by OrangeMango
I think things depend very much on personal circumstances...and there should be no reason for you not to travel back to the UK and then to Canada again, provided you're vaccinated.
Well my personal circumstances are such that taking tests will expose me to people I would not otherwise be exposed to; there would be additional journeys in enclosed spaces like a taxi or bus to the airport, mixing with people in the airport many of whom would have either travelled in numerous places around the globe or mixed with them and a lot more so at the arrivals airport in the UK so potentially I'd be exposed even more and so on and so forth.

Of course I'd be vaccinated and so would most other people I'd be in contact with but our small chance of getting covid and suffering multiplies so many times as a result of encountering so many people that I would not otherwise encounter - including some from other countries with potentially other variants - that I would decide the benefit is not worth the risk.

It's just common sense and I'd likely decide not to undertake that journey and then repeat it even if I wasn't in a high risk category.
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Old Dec 6th 2021, 1:57 am
  #5502  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by OrangeMango
I think things depend very much on personal circumstances, and a compromise for one is never a compromise for the other, it's often not even a meeting in the middle. This is why all these disagreements exist, even clashes in the streets of some European cities for various reason.

Losing the ability to conveniently travel is the biggest challenge I've ever faced, and travel also doesn't mean vacation for me, - often it's some kind of work, but not employment, to do things, I simply can't leave to others.
And then you see full football / hockey/ baseball, basketball / soccer stadiums here and there, no masks, no testing, who knows if they are all vaccinated, and it makes you think whether all that filling out locator forms, arrive apps and whatever pre or after travel testing and overpriced quarantine hotels is necessary, especially if transmission is strongly community based.

Also fines for not complying with travel restrictions and or the connected bureaucracy or home isolation is sanctioned with heavy fines, however refusing the now widely available vaccine and then in the case of an infection occupying a ICU bed for 14 days and you don't pay a single thing, - that's what I call strongly disproportionate and simply not fair. Remember the final of the Euro 2021 in the Wembley arena? And how some gotten in, not even tickets? And no fines?

Travel restrictions worked way back, when Italy had a very very high number of cases, and other countries like Austria didn't, but the objective would ultimately only have been to flatten the curve and help other countries prepare for emergencies..Also the omicron variant has been recorded way before recently, even in Europe, it was simply not discovered.
Lockdowns and travel restrictions also hurt the economy a lot more, and that public discourse hasn't even been had at this point, countries like Australia and NZ also paid a very high price couldn't keep the virus out and had a lamentable vaccination rate especially in the beginning. Regarding the most isolated country North Korea, we don't even know, but I doubt they kept the virus out and are faring well in the pandemic.

Ultimately we all have to live with Covid, it's endemic everywhere these days and there should be no reason for you not to travel back to the UK and then to Canada again, provided you're vaccinated.

It’s not yet really anywhere. The idea of endemicity is when the disease/virus has reached a level of death which is an acceptable loss to society. Sometime next year we will probably achieve this level. As the German minister put it… you will either be vaccinated, recovered or dead. Ontario is not there yet.
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Old Dec 6th 2021, 2:26 am
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by BristolUK
Well my personal circumstances are such that taking tests will expose me to people I would not otherwise be exposed to; there would be additional journeys in enclosed spaces like a taxi or bus to the airport, mixing with people in the airport many of whom would have either travelled in numerous places around the globe or mixed with them and a lot more so at the arrivals airport in the UK so potentially I'd be exposed even more and so on and so forth.

Of course I'd be vaccinated and so would most other people I'd be in contact with but our small chance of getting covid and suffering multiplies so many times as a result of encountering so many people that I would not otherwise encounter - including some from other countries with potentially other variants - that I would decide the benefit is not worth the risk.

It's just common sense and I'd likely decide not to undertake that journey and then repeat it even if I wasn't in a high risk category.
I have a friend who retired 2 years ago, he is approaching 70 and said that the next 10 years are vital for doing all those travel related things he had planned before ill health occurs and more importantly before travel insurance becomes too costly. He now feels that he has lost the first two years of his plans, having made a few trips within BC but not to the US where they often went for winter and a big European trip that was cancelled. The idea of a cruise was also scrapped and is on back burner. He is feeling pretty miffed right now. I think his situation is quite common amongst the retired or almost retired generation, these are years we will never get back. The family special celebrations that come round only once, grandmas 100th, Bert and Bettys golden anniversary and many more besides. We have stayed in when told, wore masks, had 2 or 3 shots, avoided certain things and even lost jobs in the last 2 years yet here we are looking at another Christmas season that will certainly not be normal for everyone.
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Old Dec 6th 2021, 7:34 am
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by Siouxie
Just under half the people who tested positive were vaccinated, according to the stats.. 442/1031 were vaccinated.. (27 partially vaccinated; 504/1031 unvaccinated and 58 unknown.... so it would appear that the vaccinated are also contributing to those numbers.... agreed on the chances of getting seriously ill are increased in the unvaccinated, understandably
I wish people would stop presenting these raw counts, they are completely misleading as you need to normalise for age and percentage of total population vaccinated.

So 442/1031 does look bad as a raw count, but that 442 comes from 80% of the population (taking total Canada vaccination percentage), the rest (589) come from the remaining 20% of the population. You are way more likely to test positive if vaccinated. Once you account for age (older people have less immunity even with the vaccines) then the disparity is even bigger.

Honestly wish that raw counts were not published anymore as it just adds fuel to the "vaccines don't work" fire
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Old Dec 6th 2021, 10:31 am
  #5505  
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Default Re: Coronavirus

Originally Posted by BristolUK
Well my personal circumstances are such that taking tests will expose me to people I would not otherwise be exposed to; there would be additional journeys in enclosed spaces like a taxi or bus to the airport, mixing with people in the airport many of whom would have either travelled in numerous places around the globe or mixed with them and a lot more so at the arrivals airport in the UK so potentially I'd be exposed even more and so on and so forth.

Of course I'd be vaccinated and so would most other people I'd be in contact with but our small chance of getting covid and suffering multiplies so many times as a result of encountering so many people that I would not otherwise encounter - including some from other countries with potentially other variants - that I would decide the benefit is not worth the risk.

It's just common sense and I'd likely decide not to undertake that journey and then repeat it even if I wasn't in a high risk category.
It is my concern that large crowds waiting for hours in airport arrival halls just to get one of these tests is just an added risk of getting infected. I have the same concerns regarding the checking of additional documents upon arrival, and also seen the long queues at Pearson airport shortly after the introduction of the new regulation.

What politics just doesn't understand is that it's in the best interest of every traveller to spend as little time possible at the airport in order to minimise any further risks and checking of any Arrive Canada documents should also be short.

I am also guessing that today there will be further announcements on travel restrictions, while Fauci in the US is stating that there are early indications that the omicron is actually less severe.



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