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Almost Canadian Apr 25th 2022 1:42 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
I see that there is evidence from England that is 2 months old that showed that, by then, pre-Omircon 2 (or whatever it is called) that was far more transmissable and also not accounting for the relaxation of restrictions, over 70% of the people in England had had covid. I suspect that that figure is now far higher. In light of this, who are we protecting that are unable to protect themselves?

BristolUK Apr 25th 2022 7:38 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13110012)
Yes that may be what we are being told and of course i cannot disagree that both parties wearing a mask is better than one. But we have never lived our lives protecting others as such.

I'm not sure we ever had to, although there were some similar measures introduced for Spanish flu from googling.
Wars maybe? People joining up to fight or conscripted.

We have to look out for ourselves because we cannot rely on other people to do it for us.
Surely that's what governments are for. Welfare, education,health systems, stuff like that.

bats Apr 26th 2022 5:17 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
sigh. i just don;t understand why wering a mask is so difficult. Its not s if youre being asked to wear an underwired bra one size too small.

printer Apr 27th 2022 12:12 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by bats (Post 13110458)
sigh. i just don;t understand why wering a mask is so difficult. Its not s if youre being asked to wear an underwired bra one size too small.

Maybe it's not, particularly if you wear it for short periods. Maybe it's a much bigger ask if you have to wear it ALL day in your job. Maybe being a dentist mask use daily is pretty normal but working in a bank or a grocery store it's not and never has been. You are asking people to wear something that they may find irritating and stuffy for long periods but during the early days of the virus most people got on with it best they could because they believed there was an end in sight and it wouldn't be forever. Now since most mask mandates have been lifted around the world i would say the majority are not in favour of reinstating them. Take a look at how many people out and about do not have one on and that will tell you how unpopular they really were. We are still free to wear one if we choose so why do we need this constant pressure from some groups to force us all to put them back on when we know that this will not bring down the case counts to any significant degree without other restrictions.

bats Apr 27th 2022 12:59 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13110532)
Maybe it's not, particularly if you wear it for short periods. Maybe it's a much bigger ask if you have to wear it ALL day in your job. Maybe being a dentist mask use daily is pretty normal but working in a bank or a grocery store it's not and never has been. You are asking people to wear something that they may find irritating and stuffy for long periods but during the early days of the virus most people got on with it best they could because they believed there was an end in sight and it wouldn't be forever. Now since most mask mandates have been lifted around the world i would say the majority are not in favour of reinstating them. Take a look at how many people out and about do not have one on and that will tell you how unpopular they really were. We are still free to wear one if we choose so why do we need this constant pressure from some groups to force us all to put them back on when we know that this will not bring down the case counts to any significant degree without other restrictions.

Times change, things move on, stuff gets learned. i still see masks being worn and as per my cardiologist I will be wearing one in public places even when/if ll this is over,,

Anyway I give up.

BristolUK Apr 27th 2022 10:27 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by bats (Post 13110458)
sigh. i just don;t understand why wering a mask is so difficult. Its not s if youre being asked to wear an underwired bra one size too small.

I heard a feature on the radio this morning in my groggy state and checked it on line. BBC

Shanghai, population 26m, in its 6th week of lockdown. No 'essential' trips out for exercise, groceries, no commercial deliveries of groceries, electric alarms on doors to alert the authorities if people with covid try to leave their apartments.

And "we" object to mask wearing in certain situations. :rolleyes:

Paul_Shepherd Apr 27th 2022 10:37 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13110616)
I heard a feature on the radio this morning in my groggy state and checked it on line. BBC

Shanghai, population 26m, in its 6th week of lockdown. No 'essential' trips out for exercise, groceries, no commercial deliveries of groceries, electric alarms on doors to alert the authorities if people with covid try to leave their apartments.

And "we" object to mask wearing in certain situations. :rolleyes:

Yes I saw that.... wow... that is one crazy country. I love to travel, but that is one place I have no interest in at all.

spouse of scouse Apr 27th 2022 10:43 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13110616)
I heard a feature on the radio this morning in my groggy state and checked it on line. BBC

Shanghai, population 26m, in its 6th week of lockdown. No 'essential' trips out for exercise, groceries, no commercial deliveries of groceries, electric alarms on doors to alert the authorities if people with covid try to leave their apartments.

Also locks on communal entrance/exit doors, and just recently green steel fences being installed around tower blocks. God help the poor souls living there if there's a fire.

dbd33 Apr 27th 2022 10:58 am

Re: Coronavirus
 
In the immediate crowd I work with, about 20 people, 3 now have covid. One has no symptoms but the other two are in a grim state, coughing constantly, vomiting during meetings, dead tired. One even announced at a meeting that he was no longer sure if he wanted to live or die.

I'm not keen on getting, or spreading, any of that so I'm carrying on with the mask, like most people around here.

Jingsamichty May 3rd 2022 9:22 am

Re: Coronavirus
 
Mask wearing would appear to be mostly a thing of the past in the UK now.

Paul_Shepherd May 3rd 2022 10:51 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Jingsamichty (Post 13111997)
Mask wearing would appear to be mostly a thing of the past in the UK now.

Its been that way for some time now, so I hear from my sister and friends over there.

Jerseygirl May 3rd 2022 11:40 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 13110635)
In the immediate crowd I work with, about 20 people, 3 now have covid. One has no symptoms but the other two are in a grim state, coughing constantly, vomiting during meetings, dead tired. One even announced at a meeting that he was no longer sure if he wanted to live or die.

I'm not keen on getting, or spreading, any of that so I'm carrying on with the mask, like most people around here.

My daughter had Covid 5 weeks ago. Same symptoms, she was in bed for a week, despite having 3 Covid shots. She spoke to an ER Covid doc over the phone because she could not keep food or fluids down. He prescribed meds and said if she did not improve in 48 hrs she should be admitted to hospital. Thankfully she responded to the meds. She tested herself multiple times, each time the test was negative. She is ultra cautious about avoiding Covid, but caught it from her 7 yr old daughter.

Nand May 3rd 2022 11:04 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
93% of deaths from SarsCov have been in people over 65 years of age. People 49 years of age and under are at almost zero risk of dying from Covid. It is a geriactricide, not a Pandemic for all people.
I hope in future, asdifficult as it is, younger people will do everything they can to protect and support elderly people not to contract CovSars disease.

dbd33 May 3rd 2022 11:55 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Jerseygirl (Post 13112024)
My daughter had Covid 5 weeks ago. Same symptoms, she was in bed for a week, despite having 3 Covid shots. She spoke to an ER Covid doc over the phone because she could not keep food or fluids down. He prescribed meds and said if she did not improve in 48 hrs she should be admitted to hospital. Thankfully she responded to the meds. She tested herself multiple times, each time the test was negative. She is ultra cautious about avoiding Covid, but caught it from her 7 yr old daughter.

Of that 20 people, 8 now have covid and 2 heavy colds which they deny being covid. Meetings now sound like a lung cancer ward. "Let's all go and sit in an office together!" I said cheerfully, as directed by the HR publication "Return to Office Guidelines for Leaders". The idea did not go over well.

printer May 4th 2022 4:17 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 13112200)
Of that 20 people, 8 now have covid and 2 heavy colds which they deny being covid. Meetings now sound like a lung cancer ward. "Let's all go and sit in an office together!" I said cheerfully, as directed by the HR publication "Return to Office Guidelines for Leaders". The idea did not go over well.

Problem is that in your case sitting at home and working via zoom or whatever is obviously possible. Many many jobs don't have that possibility so its all hands on deck or severe staff shortage of which the latter seems to be the order of the day. We cannot live in a world of "stay at home zoomers" We cannot travel without physical staff seeing us through the airport and on the plane, the plane won't fly without crew. We cannot get our tires fitted via zoom or our haircut or anything else that requires "in person" services. So whilst it is understandable that those who carry out office work can do same from safety of their own home it's not universal and many people have no choice but to actually go into work. One would assume that had you all returned to office then those that are ill would indeed stay at home at least until testing negative.
I'm seeing more and more "hiring" signs locally and i was thinking if anyone wants a career change now is the time to get a new job

BristolUK May 4th 2022 12:16 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13112212)
... We cannot live in a world of "stay at home zoomers" We cannot travel without physical staff seeing us through the airport and on the plane, the plane won't fly without crew. We cannot get our tires fitted via zoom or our haircut or anything else that requires "in person" services...

So accepting those necessities there is all the more reason for measures to reduce transmission generally, in less necessary matters, and thus reduced chances of passed infection in those more necessary situations.

dbd33 May 4th 2022 12:26 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13112212)
We cannot live in a world of "stay at home zoomers"

We can and we have. The question now is "is it better?". Obviously some jobs require a physical presence but tyres and haircuts are not good examples. Tyres don't need changing if you work from home, they'll last until they're out of date. We all cut our own hair when the barbers were closed and can continue doing so. There's no need for anyone to go to a shop now and so no need for anyone to work in one. Hospitals and care homes are the clear examples of enterprises needing on site workers.

When there's an "in office" policy people go to work sick. That'll be even more the case with the post covid return to work as the reason for being in an office is now generally understood to be cosmetic; it's less productive but the boss likes the feeling of having a workforce. If there's no one in the office then embarrassing questions about the need for a shiny new phallic tower will be raised. The Return to Office is at the expense of employee health, that'd be fine if only if were more profitable than leaving everyone at home.


Almost Canadian May 4th 2022 1:23 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 13112295)
We can and we have. The question now is "is it better?". Obviously some jobs require a physical presence but tyres and haircuts are not good examples. Tyres don't need changing if you work from home, they'll last until they're out of date. We all cut our own hair when the barbers were closed and can continue doing so. There's no need for anyone to go to a shop now and so no need for anyone to work in one. Hospitals and care homes are the clear examples of enterprises needing on site workers.

When there's an "in office" policy people go to work sick. That'll be even more the case with the post covid return to work as the reason for being in an office is now generally understood to be cosmetic; it's less productive but the boss likes the feeling of having a workforce. If there's no one in the office then embarrassing questions about the need for a shiny new phallic tower will be raised. The Return to Office is at the expense of employee health, that'd be fine if only if were more profitable than leaving everyone at home.

What work are the mechanics, hairdressers going to do? What about all those businesses that provided services to office workers (coffee shops, sandwich/lunch providers, cleaners), what will their displaced workers do? I accept that many on here simply wait for Government funds to magically arrive in their bank accounts but huge amounts of displaced workers is not good for Government finances.

Calgary is now pretty much back to normal (seen purely from a walking around experience). For months I appeared to be the only one walking through the +15 but now,, the locals' annoying practice of walking 5 abreast so no one could get past them has returned. Fortunately, there doesn't appear to have been an uptick in the people being admitted to hospital either.

dbd33 May 4th 2022 3:22 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 13112312)
What work are the mechanics, hairdressers going to do? What about all those businesses that provided services to office workers (coffee shops, sandwich/lunch providers, cleaners), what will their displaced workers do? I accept that many on here simply wait for Government funds to magically arrive in their bank accounts but huge amounts of displaced workers is not good for Government finances.

Jobs change over time, fewer farriers and chimney sweeps work now than in the past. Home services might boom, food delivery, house cleaning, renovations.

Shard May 4th 2022 3:54 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 13112338)
Jobs change over time, fewer farriers and chimney sweeps work now than in the past. Home services might boom, food delivery, house cleaning, renovations.

This is correct. No need to force 21st century office workers into towers five days a week just to keep the sandwich shops afloat. A permanent hybrid working model is sure to emerge.

Almost Canadian May 4th 2022 4:44 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Shard (Post 13112350)
A permanent hybrid working model is sure to emerge.

Maybe.

At the stage in life that I am at, I can work anywhere. However, I can't imagine what it would be like to be a newly qualified lawyer "working from home." Being able to walk down a corridor and speaking to other colleagues is invaluable. Having to call them or, worse still, WebEx them, just wouldn't be the same. I am confident the same applies to accounting, engineering and lots of other occupations too.

I am willing to bet that the exodus from office buildings will not be as total as some believe.

Shard May 4th 2022 4:53 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 13112361)
Maybe.

At the stage in life that I am at, I can work anywhere. However, I can't imagine what it would be like to be a newly qualified lawyer "working from home." Being able to walk down a corridor and speaking to other colleagues is invaluable. Having to call them or, worse still, WebEx them, just wouldn't be the same. I am confident the same applies to accounting, engineering and lots of other occupations too.

I am willing to bet that the exodus from office buildings will not be as total as some believe.

It won't be total. There is definitely value in having people work in offices or cities and there are people who don't have suitable home environments. However, perhaps through more flexible working protocols office space can be reduced be some signifcant %.

Danny B May 4th 2022 5:04 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
I drove into the office today as my car is getting fixed nearby. I am spending my day having Teams meetings (teams as in virtual, like Zoom) with people WFH. What's the point in coming into the office if all you do is turn on your webcam and headset to talk to people? Makes zero sense. May as well stay at home and keep my dog company.


Atlantic Xpat May 4th 2022 5:26 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Danny B (Post 13112372)
I drove into the office today as my car is getting fixed nearby. I am spending my day having Teams meetings (teams as in virtual, like Zoom) with people WFH. What's the point in coming into the office if all you do is turn on your webcam and headset to talk to people? Makes zero sense. May as well stay at home and keep my dog company.

Even before the pandemic, it wasn't unheard of for multiple people in the same building to join a call on Webex from their desks rather than getting together in one meeting room. Easier to multitask that way you see!

We're hybrid working both here and at head office in London. For me, practically, I seldom go into the office here as the people I deal with are not located here. So I might as well do that teams call at home. What is going to be interesting is the return to business travel - which is gradually happening. I would typically travel to head office for a specific reason and then fill up my week with other meetings and seeing people while I was in town. Nowadays I'll specifically have to ask people to come in to meet with me as otherwise I'll have travelled to the UK to attend a teams call with them from their homes!

BristolUK May 4th 2022 5:33 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Danny B (Post 13112372)
I drove into the office today as my car is getting fixed nearby. I am spending my day having Teams meetings (teams as in virtual, like Zoom) with people WFH. What's the point in coming into the office if all you do is turn on your webcam and headset to talk to people?

Did you buy a sandwich? :lol:

Danny B May 4th 2022 6:09 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13112379)
Did you buy a sandwich? :lol:

It's funny you say that, we do have a cafeteria onsite and as I forgot to bring food, I will be buying a cooked lunch. Something I haven't done in 2 years!

Danny B May 4th 2022 6:12 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Atlantic Xpat (Post 13112378)
Even before the pandemic, it wasn't unheard of for multiple people in the same building to join a call on Webex from their desks rather than getting together in one meeting room. Easier to multitask that way you see!

Pre-COVID here where I work, everyone was squashed into the same meeting room. No one had webcams or the tech to join remotely if you were in the same building. I kinda miss those in person meetings if I'm honest.

bats May 4th 2022 6:41 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
What about the banter, the friendships, after work drinkies, office romance? Who will the wayward have affairs with?

dbd33 May 4th 2022 9:05 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 13112361)
Maybe.

At the stage in life that I am at, I can work anywhere. However, I can't imagine what it would be like to be a newly qualified lawyer "working from home."

My daughter and her husband largely work from home. I suppose they're not "newly qualified" but they've been lawyers for less than 10 years. It doesn't seem to have hurt his career. In her case it's hard to say as she's taken mat leave and that will have been a set back.

sharkus May 4th 2022 9:08 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
I can recall joining the odd meeting via whatever it was before we used Zoom. The main reason was that meeting rooms were a precious resource and so you usually ended up with one of the small ones, which the entire team could not fit into, and thus joining remotely was the only option.

The team did actually have an in-person lunch last week, and if I had not been elsewhere I would have gone along, as seeing people in person would have been nice. I think we're going to have a couple of other in person things in the near future so that should make up for missing that one. We've decided that we're going to be remote only for the foreseeable future, bar any company mandatory in-person stuff, which is likely to be pretty rare. We can go in if we want to, so say a couple of us want to collaborate on something in person, so that's good.

dbd33 May 4th 2022 9:33 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by bats (Post 13112384)
Who will the wayward have affairs with?

An ex-wife asked me, quite pointedly, if this wasn't the worst aspect of working from home for me. The truth is that computer departments aren't like that anymore. Lately though, I've been on a secondment to Corporate Finance where, oh my, it's 1985 all over again.

I did go to an IT leaving party on Friday, quite a few attendees are now sick with the covid (not the same crowd as mentioned above) and an unvaccinated Karen is screeching that whoever brought the germs should have declared them upon arrival. <sigh>

printer May 5th 2022 2:12 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 13112295)
We can and we have. The question now is "is it better?". Obviously some jobs require a physical presence but tyres and haircuts are not good examples. Tyres don't need changing if you work from home, they'll last until they're out of date. We all cut our own hair when the barbers were closed and can continue doing so. There's no need for anyone to go to a shop now and so no need for anyone to work in one. Hospitals and care homes are the clear examples of enterprises needing on site workers.

When there's an "in office" policy people go to work sick. That'll be even more the case with the post covid return to work as the reason for being in an office is now generally understood to be cosmetic; it's less productive but the boss likes the feeling of having a workforce. If there's no one in the office then embarrassing questions about the need for a shiny new phallic tower will be raised. The Return to Office is at the expense of employee health, that'd be fine if only if were more profitable than leaving everyone at home.

Maybe tires and haircuts weren't the best examples and i guess in a world where we all cut our own hair (ladies take note) perhaps staying in is for the best. :p So to the tires. Are you saying that there are no vehicles on the road? Are you suggesting that nobody needs tire services? Obviously not so therefore tire mechanics are necessary if only to keep the stay at homers supplied with goods that they order. So no need for anyone to go to a shop therefore shops are a thing of the past and so are the people that work in them and then there's the companies that own these massive commercial buildings, more of which i see going up locally this year, these are surplus to requirements because nobody needs a store or an office. The knock on effect of thinking that the majority can work from home and to hell with the rest is mind boggling. The huge traffic queues locally that seem to have gotten worse since the snowbirds returned from Arizona or wherever is testament to the fact that people are not staying at home and we are not seeing a majority work from home strategy here and of course as a tourist town people on the ground are what its all about

dbd33 May 5th 2022 10:57 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13112429)
and then there's the companies that own these massive commercial buildings, more of which i see going up locally this year, these are surplus to requirements because nobody needs a store or an office.


Well quite. If no one uses these white elephants life is better for everyone except tyre retailers and property speculators; less pollution, less stress, less road rage. Mobile barbers ply their trade in electric vans with the clippers powered wirelessly from the van motor. No more standing around wondering wtf the CIBC/RBC/Citi/etc. didn't put up the money to have sufficient lifts.

Paul_Shepherd May 5th 2022 11:29 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 13112361)
Maybe.

At the stage in life that I am at, I can work anywhere. However, I can't imagine what it would be like to be a newly qualified lawyer "working from home." Being able to walk down a corridor and speaking to other colleagues is invaluable. Having to call them or, worse still, WebEx them, just wouldn't be the same. I am confident the same applies to accounting, engineering and lots of other occupations too.

I am willing to bet that the exodus from office buildings will not be as total as some believe.

Fully agree. I work in engineering as a mechanical designer, working at home makes my life a lot more difficult... sometimes I am in a meeting I am swtiching between 3-4 drawings on the screen tryng to explain my intentions, or building on someone elses idea, it gets very confusing, in normal times an impromtu sketch would materialise, can't do that anymore, its very hard to get your point accross over a teams meeting.

Added to this people just don't communicate and share information like they would in the office. I started my new job in the middle of all this work at home crap, ....I had to learn systems and software from home.... huge struggle, 14 months later, I still don't feel part of a design team...its the most solitary job I have ever done, I haven't gotten to know my colleagues, like I would normally, no morning personal chats over a coffee, getting to know each other etc, as result communication has suffered, and that really s key...that walk accross the office every day... where you would regulary exchange information with colleagues has gone... the assistance you would give has gone, the assistance you would receive has gone.

I hope we do get back to the office in some regular format again even if its a hybrid.... its vital to the job I do.

Jingsamichty May 5th 2022 12:03 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd (Post 13112467)
Fully agree. I work in engineering as a mechanical designer, working at home makes my life a lot more difficult... sometimes I am in a meeting I am swtiching between 3-4 drawings on the screen tryng to explain my intentions, or building on someone elses idea, it gets very confusing, in normal times an impromtu sketch would materialise, can't do that anymore, its very hard to get your point accross over a teams meeting.

Added to this people just don't communicate and share information like they would in the office. I started my new job in the middle of all this work at home crap, ....I had to learn systems and software from home.... huge struggle, 14 months later, I still don't feel part of a design team...its the most solitary job I have ever done, I haven't gotten to know my colleagues, like I would normally, no morning personal chats over a coffee, getting to know each other etc, as result communication has suffered, and that really s key...that walk accross the office every day... where you would regulary exchange information with colleagues has gone... the assistance you would give has gone, the assistance you would receive has gone.

I hope we do get back to the office in some regular format again even if its a hybrid.... its vital to the job I do.

I call that "learning by osmosis" and I agree it has really suffered by being out of the office. However, we adapt, and I for one hope I'm never in an office full-time again. Hybrid suits me just fine.

dbd33 May 5th 2022 12:21 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd (Post 13112467)

Added to this people just don't communicate and share information like they would in the office. I started my new job in the middle of all this work at home crap, ....I had to learn systems and software from home.... huge struggle, 14 months later, I still don't feel part of a design team...its the most solitary job I have ever done, I haven't gotten to know my colleagues, like I would normally, no morning personal chats over a coffee, getting to know each other etc, as result communication has suffered, and that really s key...that walk accross the office every day... where you would regulary exchange information with colleagues has gone... the assistance you would give has gone, the assistance you would receive has gone.

This office socialisation idea is something I hear from HR and from what they call L1s and it may be true that senior executives of large organizations spend much of their day chatting with other senior executives in a suite of offices with doors and a view of the mountains. Perhaps they have cocktail cabinets in the shape of globes. They will have a common background and ethnicity and mingle easily, chatting about lacrosse or tennis or eventing.

At the tactical level however it's nonsense. The staff are spread across the country, the development teams are in Ireland or Portugal or wherever's cheaper this year, the grunt work is done in India. The workers are from the four corners and share only an appreciation for cricket and the World Cup. Regardless of where a team member is sitting they will have headphones on and be speaking to someone far away. Conference rooms are of little value as to have some people physically together and others remote creates an imbalance; it's easier if everyone is using the internet conferencing facility. In any case, it's not physically possible to attend back-to-back meetings if more motion than a mouse click is required to get to them.

Working from home offers a stable environment. Once the machines are on the kitchen table I don't have to move them until the end of day. There isn't the nonsense of making sure the correct phone is blue toothed in the car and that the pc has enough battery for the trip. I don't have to drag all this gubbins to and from the kitchen table before and after commuting.

I get that some people want company and feel that an office can provide that but, for most white collar work, it's less productive than being at home. That need is better addressed by the people who desire it setting up their machine in a coffee shop or fruit and veg market. The latter provides plenty of hubbub without infectious proximity and without having to have a dedicated building.

Almost Canadian May 5th 2022 1:42 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 13112398)
My daughter and her husband largely work from home. I suppose they're not "newly qualified" but they've been lawyers for less than 10 years. It doesn't seem to have hurt his career. In her case it's hard to say as she's taken mat leave and that will have been a set back.

From a Canadian perspective, being a lawyer for "less than 10 years" isn't newly qualified. In Calgary, at the mid to large sized firms, one would be expected to be partner at the 7 year point (has little to do with being a rainmaker as it would be in the UK: simply time served and not screwing up).

I was referring to a lawyer straight out of university. One that, really, has no idea how to run a file. Lots of "theoretical" knowledge but no practical experience. One may know if the law says a contract has been breached, but one has no real idea how to sue someone, or the level of damages that could be expected.

Yes, one can learn via online discussions, but that is not the same as being able to knock on someone's door and saying, "Have you got a minute, I just need some guidance on..." Or sitting in on meetings with other lawyers/clients and learning how to deal with situations that arise.

BristolUK May 5th 2022 1:58 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 13112481)
Perhaps they have cocktail cabinets in the shape of globes.


dbd33 May 5th 2022 2:20 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 13112508)
From a Canadian perspective, being a lawyer for "less than 10 years" isn't newly qualified. In Calgary, at the mid to large sized firms, one would be expected to be partner at the 7 year point (has little to do with being a rainmaker as it would be in the UK: simply time served and not screwing up).

Rainmaking does seem to have matter if you don't want to wait 7 years but I suppose it depends on the field. I have the impression that being involved in mergers and acquisitions of computer companies is as much about sales and accounting as it is law. Criminal prosecution, otoh, seems to be an exercise in patience; same perpetrators, same crimes, same convictions, groundhog day.

At least being a lawyer seems to be a route to riches.

Almost Canadian May 5th 2022 3:19 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 13112516)
Rainmaking does seem to have matter if you don't want to wait 7 years but I suppose it depends on the field. I have the impression that being involved in mergers and acquisitions of computer companies is as much about sales and accounting as it is law. Criminal prosecution, otoh, seems to be an exercise in patience; same perpetrators, same crimes, same convictions, groundhog day.

At least being a lawyer seems to be a route to riches.

Not in Calgary. I have no idea about other places.

The thing that struck when I came here was that there was a ladder: First year lawyers did first year lawyer things; second year lawyers, did second year lawyer things, etc. There was no way to expedite the process. All of the associates from all of the larger firms shared income information and that was used by the firms to set salaries. All first years are paid the same; all second years are paid the same, etc. It was not based on merit and it was a total shock to me. If you are not able to bill your 2500 hours a year, you are let go. If you can, you make partner in year 7.

I had been practicing for 10 years in England prior to arriving here. Once I was admitted, half of the partnership wished for me to practice as if I had the same level of experience in Canada as I'd had in England. The other half wanted me to go through what they had gone through and start as a first year. In the first 6 months after admission I had brought in clients that generated more fees than the partners that were wanting me to start from scratch and that pissed them off. I told them to sort themselves out, or I would leave and, 10 months after I was called, I left to set up on my own.

In England, you were paid depending upon your billing, irrespective of experience and you only made partner if you were a rainmaker. Rainmakers are not necessarily good lawyers and they can always pay good lawyers, that don't have the interpersonal skills to become rainmakers to do the work for them.

In England, I could bet that, if I spent 5 minutes speaking to a solicitor, I would be able to tell you what area of law they worked it, as it is very personality specific. Law firms there recruit trainees with a specific area of practice in mind and, if recruited, very few trainees are let go as the firm has spent 2 years training them. In Calgary, Articles are for a single year and a big firm will take on 100 students, aiming to keep 10 of them at the end. It's a totally different system.

I agree that, for most, it is a route to riches, at the expense of the clients. Don't get me started about the Q.C. system here. Real Estate Lawyers becoming Q.C.s. Kavanagh, they are not!

Apologies for the thread drift.


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