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BristolUK Apr 10th 2022 12:32 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13106890)
...what is the right call here?

Something that slows down the spread to something more manageable?

If the original aim was to prevent health services from being overwhelmed and the current lack of measures is causing that to happen - at least in part because staff are off sick and/or isolating - then something that would slow down the spread would seem a good idea.

Having convinced so many people that the current variant is harmless it may be too late to roll some measures back.
Three times this week I saw a UK daily deaths total of around 350. When you consider that 438 for a day in January was the highest since February 2021, it really doesn't take much to see that allowing this spread is killing almost as many as people now as it was over a year ago before vaccines.

When people were allowed to go to restaurants and mix but not go to multiple households and mix, many thought that didn't make sense but at least there was some semblance of control and tracing of infection sources.

I saw some research the other day that found that people thought they were safer with friends than strangers and behaved in a way that was more likely to see them infected.

Maybe some information/education would help instead of stats. Encourage behavioural change in order to maintain a level of normality.

printer Apr 10th 2022 1:40 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by old.sparkles (Post 13106895)
I'm not sure how they caught it is the issue, just that they are unable to work which adds to pressure in the health care system.

There is also nothing wrong with health care workers going shopping, visiting the library, etc - or are you suggesting they should be isolating from all when not in work?

No that is not what i am saying. It's clear that health care professionals are normal people outside of their work place and will engage in socializing and therefore will leave themselves open to infection. They are not isolating outside of work. To bring back a mask mandate for example that only forces people to wear one inside a store or public building is not dealing with the biggest source of potential infection and that is gathering in groups at events either public or private where masks are not viable such as restaurants, pubs, clubs and private homes. Like i said it is an uphill struggle to contain this highly contagious variant and simply making people wear masks in some situations is not dealing with the problem. Likewise we hear constantly about health workers being burned out and stressed so taking a break from work because you are "sick" just became a very easy option for many on top of the many that are actually sick and should be at home.

old.sparkles Apr 10th 2022 2:10 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13106908)
No that is not what i am saying. It's clear that health care professionals are normal people outside of their work place and will engage in socializing and therefore will leave themselves open to infection. They are not isolating outside of work. To bring back a mask mandate for example that only forces people to wear one inside a store or public building is not dealing with the biggest source of potential infection and that is gathering in groups at events either public or private where masks are not viable such as restaurants, pubs, clubs and private homes. Like i said it is an uphill struggle to contain this highly contagious variant and simply making people wear masks in some situations is not dealing with the problem. Likewise we hear constantly about health workers being burned out and stressed so taking a break from work because you are "sick" just became a very easy option for many on top of the many that are actually sick and should be at home.

Thank you for that Printer - and sorry, think I was grumpy here this morning when reading your original post.

BristolUK Apr 10th 2022 2:07 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13106908)
...To bring back a mask mandate for example that only forces people to wear one inside a store or public building is not dealing with the biggest source of potential infection and that is gathering in groups at events either public or private where masks are not viable such as restaurants, pubs, clubs and private homes. .

I think you are missing the value of "awareness" that such measures can bring.

Masks in restaurants were only "not viable" when eating. But the whole have proof of vaccination to enter, leave contact details, wear a mask until eating, have diners distanced from other diners and staff wearing masks throughout "told" people they needed to be careful. They could apply that care in other situations.

Currently it's a free for all with no encouragement to take more care.

BristolUK Apr 10th 2022 7:08 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
Delays in moving 999 patients from ambulances to A&E and then to a ward are having a catastrophic effect on ambulance response times

A spokesperson for the South Western ambulance service said it was experiencing a sustained period of high demand, and handover delays at hospitals were preventing its crews from getting back out on the road...“The colossal demands on the ambulance service in the south-west are being mirrored across the UK. Dealing with repeated peaks of pressure with a depleted workforce is taking a huge toll.”
NHS England said staff were working “flat out” amid increasing numbers of Covid patients, record high A&E attendances and tens of thousands of Covid-linked absences

printer Apr 10th 2022 8:09 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13106988)
I think you are missing the value of "awareness" that such measures can bring.

Masks in restaurants were only "not viable" when eating. But the whole have proof of vaccination to enter, leave contact details, wear a mask until eating, have diners distanced from other diners and staff wearing masks throughout "told" people they needed to be careful. They could apply that care in other situations.

Currently it's a free for all with no encouragement to take more care.

True it is a free for all in some sense but was it "awareness" or just another hoop to jump through, a pain in the proverbial? I believe that many were frustrated by the whole mask on mask off thing as well as the fact that health advisors were telling us not to continually touch the mask, sanitize after putting on and off etc... I can see that inside any medical settings or care home settings wearing one correctly and keeping it on for the duration makes some sense. I notice from my time out and about this weekend that mask wearing is still apparent but much less so now. This tells me that many were not in favour of wearing one but did so because mandate said so. Today in Home Depot most staff were unmasked which is a change from 2 weeks ago when all staff were masked. On entering eyeglass store the employees were not all wearing masks BUT as soon as they interacted directly with a customer they put one on and kept it on for the duration of transaction. This seemed like a reasonable compromise for the staff and of course an extra safety precaution when up close to clients.

BristolUK Apr 10th 2022 9:50 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13107028)
True it is a free for all in some sense but was it "awareness" or just another hoop to jump through, a pain in the proverbial?

It was a necessary step in order to be able to dine out. It's irritating to have to have a passport to travel abroad (generally, not covid related) instead of just being able to go. But the fact we need one made people aware that for certain countries a visa was needed and inoculations were needed for other places.

You have to "do something" so it makes you think "what else might I have to do?"

It's only a pain in the arse because you never had to do it before the pandemic. If, instead, it was originally promoted as "these measures will enable you to to enjoy going to restaurants again" people may have seen it as an enabler rather than a chore.


I believe that many were frustrated by the whole mask on mask off thing as well as the fact that health advisors were telling us not to continually touch the mask, sanitize after putting on and off etc..
.
Yes and in the early days people were using pencils or their elbows to touch lift buttons or wiping down their groceries but then all that was stopped when there was enough evidence to decide infection from surfaces wasn't that likely. That was a long time ago.
Announce these things in a positive way, make people aware of stuff and why they can now do things they couldn't before for specific reasons instead of just getting out of the habit because "nobody talks about it anymore" or just allowing people to do what they want.

Today in Home Depot most staff were unmasked which is a change from 2 weeks ago when all staff were masked. On entering eyeglass store the employees were not all wearing masks BUT as soon as they interacted directly with a customer they put one on and kept it on for the duration of transaction. This seemed like a reasonable compromise for the staff and of course an extra safety precaution when up close to clients.
Yes, that's similar to a previous post I made. It makes the staff very aware of it and when they become a client or customer of someone else, they may continue to adopt the same approach. But for the client they deal with they have nothing. They can just carry on in their own world "choosing" not to bother because they are allowed to and potentially worst of all is they mentally switch off.

printer Apr 10th 2022 10:23 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13107032)

.
Yes and in the early days people were using pencils or their elbows to touch lift buttons or wiping down their groceries but then all that was stopped when there was enough evidence to decide infection from surfaces wasn't that likely. That was a long time ago.
Announce these things in a positive way, make people aware of stuff and why they can now do things they couldn't before for specific reasons instead of just getting out of the habit because "nobody talks about it anymore" or just allowing people to do what they want.

I saw people using their foot to push the crosswalk buttons sometimes. :confused:
Yes it's about education for everyone but without people feeling they are being told how to live their lives. Like teaching your kids right from wrong and how to cross the road safely or safe sex advice, you can only do so much, the rest is down to them accepting the risk and hopefully listening to the advice.
Still seeing trucks driving around town with multiple Canadian Flags hanging out the back and the F##k Trudeau message yet what are they still protesting about? I don't really know. Guy in coffee place yesterday was having a moan to his friend about Trudeau and saying he is thinking of moving to Texas! :o

BristolUK Apr 11th 2022 2:12 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13107037)
I saw people using their foot to push the crosswalk buttons sometimes. :confused:

Presumably not the older ones where anything bigger than a thumb wouldn't fit. :lol:


Yes it's about education for everyone but without people feeling they are being told how to live their lives. Like teaching your kids right from wrong and how to cross the road safely or safe sex advice, you can only do so much, the rest is down to them accepting the risk and hopefully listening to the advice.
Odd thing though, when you consider how much time people spend in their cars regulated by seat belt laws, traffic signals, speed limits, drink driving laws, paying attention and wotnot that's quite a bit of being told how to live their lives right there. But most don't object to it. ;)

Danny B Apr 11th 2022 9:39 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
Well I'm back in Kamloops now and it's the complete opposite of Ottawa in terms of mask wearing. Seems to be the whiter the community, the less people are wearing masks.

I had my 2nd booster this morning, arm is starting to ache.

BristolUK Apr 21st 2022 6:42 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
Anyone remember covid?
What was that UK daily deaths figure in January 2022 that was the highest one since February 2021...Ah, yes, 438.


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...df813aa8c.jpeg

And this appears to be just England rather than the UK

Danny B Apr 21st 2022 9:04 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13109249)
Anyone remember covid?

Honestly, things here in my neck of the woods are like pre-COVID times. Life has resumed back to normal and now it's one of those things 'to look out for', kind of like the flu always was. Take sensible precautions and enjoy life.



Shard Apr 21st 2022 10:23 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13109249)
Anyone remember covid?
What was that UK daily deaths figure in January 2022 that was the highest one since February 2021...Ah, yes, 438.


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...df813aa8c.jpeg

And this appears to be just England rather than the UK

Thanks. I was wondering what today's figure was (too lazy to check). So few people are wearing masks, even myself. It's over reliance on the (waning) vaccine I guess.

bats Apr 21st 2022 10:30 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
Peterborough Ontario , the hospital has the highest number of COVID cases ever and the highest number of staff off sick with COVID. The Health Unit says the area is very high risk.

Shard Apr 21st 2022 10:33 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by bats (Post 13109314)
Peterborough Ontario , the hospital has the highest number of COVID cases ever and the highest number of staff off sick with COVID. The Health Unit says the area is very high risk.

Red box on the chart :unsure:

Human psychology is proving as challenging a factor as the virus itself.

printer Apr 21st 2022 10:57 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by bats (Post 13109314)
Peterborough Ontario , the hospital has the highest number of COVID cases ever and the highest number of staff off sick with COVID. The Health Unit says the area is very high risk.

But what is the logical answer to these situations we are seeing? Well of course we could revert back to restrictions and when i say restrictions i mean ones that actually work to seriously reduce spread not just reinstating a mask mandate and hoping for the best! The reality is that most people don't want that especially as we are heading into summer and lots of things are now planned that were cancelled the previous two years. Can we continue to bring back restrictions and force people to conform every time there is another variant or wave? Would there be no sixth wave if we had left the restrictions on for longer, if so how much longer?
Personally i am loving the fact that i am not seeing daily news about COVID and being constantly reminded of it. I love the fact that going out somewhere now is pretty much normal. It's been two years now of uncertainty and judging by what i hear from others i talk to most are not living in fear of the virus but more in fear of what restrictions might return and whether they were safe to book that holiday they have been putting off.

bats Apr 21st 2022 11:44 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13109318)
But what is the logical answer to these situations we are seeing? Well of course we could revert back to restrictions and when i say restrictions i mean ones that actually work to seriously reduce spread not just reinstating a mask mandate and hoping for the best! The reality is that most people don't want that especially as we are heading into summer and lots of things are now planned that were cancelled the previous two years. Can we continue to bring back restrictions and force people to conform every time there is another variant or wave? Would there be no sixth wave if we had left the restrictions on for longer, if so how much longer?
Personally i am loving the fact that i am not seeing daily news about COVID and being constantly reminded of it. I love the fact that going out somewhere now is pretty much normal. It's been two years now of uncertainty and judging by what i hear from others i talk to most are not living in fear of the virus but more in fear of what restrictions might return and whether they were safe to book that holiday they have been putting off.

Masks, masks, mask, decent ones. Hand sanitisers, and more reminders of distancing. That will make a difference

printer Apr 22nd 2022 12:45 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by bats (Post 13109323)
Masks, masks, mask, decent ones. Hand sanitisers, and more reminders of distancing. That will make a difference

There is still no actual hard evidence that enforcing a general mask mandate results in a significant reduction in cases. I said it before but when we had a jump in cases last year early summer in Kelowna it was obviously due to the influx of tourists at that time. The masks had been rescinded literally 2 weeks prior and then they reimpose the mandate because of the rise yet we did not see any reduction in case numbers until the tourist season ended weeks later. At that time the Interior had the worst numbers because everyone and his dog was travelling here for their vacation. Same thing happened in Cornwall in UK as tourists swamped the area and numbers went way up. Socializing is on again and you cannot do the pubs, clubs and restaurants masked up and entertaining in ones home is a free for all and certainly not a venue where one would normally mask up so unless your suggestion is going to add capacity limits, distancing and other such rules then masks are really not going to do much on their own.

bats Apr 22nd 2022 1:04 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13109341)
There is still no actual hard evidence that enforcing a general mask mandate results in a significant reduction in cases. I said it before but when we had a jump in cases last year early summer in Kelowna it was obviously due to the influx of tourists at that time. The masks had been rescinded literally 2 weeks prior and then they reimpose the mandate because of the rise yet we did not see any reduction in case numbers until the tourist season ended weeks later. At that time the Interior had the worst numbers because everyone and his dog was travelling here for their vacation. Same thing happened in Cornwall in UK as tourists swamped the area and numbers went way up. Socializing is on again and you cannot do the pubs, clubs and restaurants masked up and entertaining in ones home is a free for all and certainly not a venue where one would normally mask up so unless your suggestion is going to add capacity limits, distancing and other such rules then masks are really not going to do much on their own.

If they don"t do any good then i wonder why we bother with them in hospitals?? Why all that fuss with infection control?? Barriers work. what doesnt work are flimsy old badly fitting masks. Supply populations with these and insist on their use.

Almost Canadian Apr 22nd 2022 2:26 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by bats (Post 13109344)
If they don"t do any good then i wonder why we bother with them in hospitals?? Why all that fuss with infection control?? Barriers work. what doesnt work are flimsy old badly fitting masks. Supply populations with these and insist on their use.

Pre-pandemic, were they required in hospital outside of an operating theatre?

BristolUK Apr 22nd 2022 3:10 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by bats (Post 13109323)
Masks, masks, mask, decent ones. Hand sanitisers, and more reminders of distancing. That will make a difference

And, of course, some information. Some more publicity about how ambulances are queuing outside hospitals unable to unload their patients because the hospitals are full of covid patients.

Maybe something about increased waiting times and 'non-urgent' surgery delayed and how lack of beds, missing staff is actually covid related and not just "the usual" health services issues.

Maybe some "Why is covid killing and hospitalising as many people as before we had vaccines" items in the media with explanations that "yes, the variant isn't as bad for the individual as it was but due to vastly more infections and nobody being careful anymore responsible for making that even worse it kills and hospitalises just as many people."

Perhaps something on "why medical people are recommending masks in schools."

Of course the wearing of masks themselves will raise awareness and reinforce the need for better behaviours.

bats Apr 22nd 2022 4:15 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 13109511)
Pre-pandemic, were they required in hospital outside of an operating theatre?

Yes, patients and visitors with a cough were required to wear a mask. Staff wear them when dealing with patients who are immunocompromised and with patients who have infectious airborne conditions, would often wear them if they were at work with a cough or cold or were going on vacation and didn't want to fall ill.
Various levels of precautions exist depending on the method of transmission. The most fundamental precautions are handwashing, masks, distance, Some precautions are much more complicated and include gowning up, gloves, eye protections, masks. Sometimes two pairs of gloves, two masks, plus faceshield.

bats Apr 22nd 2022 4:16 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13109515)
And, of course, some information. Some more publicity about how ambulances are queuing outside hospitals unable to unload their patients because the hospitals are full of covid patients.

Maybe something about increased waiting times and 'non-urgent' surgery delayed and how lack of beds, missing staff is actually covid related and not just "the usual" health services issues.

Maybe some "Why is covid killing and hospitalising as many people as before we had vaccines" items in the media with explanations that "yes, the variant isn't as bad for the individual as it was but due to vastly more infections and nobody being careful anymore responsible for making that even worse it kills and hospitalises just as many people."

Perhaps something on "why medical people are recommending masks in schools."

Of course the wearing of masks themselves will raise awareness and reinforce the need for better behaviours.

YEp, people are going to continue to suffer for the lack of medical care because of COVID blocking access

Almost Canadian Apr 22nd 2022 6:01 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by bats (Post 13109523)
Yes, patients and visitors with a cough were required to wear a mask. Staff wear them when dealing with patients who are immunocompromised and with patients who have infectious airborne conditions, would often wear them if they were at work with a cough or cold or were going on vacation and didn't want to fall ill.
Various levels of precautions exist depending on the method of transmission. The most fundamental precautions are handwashing, masks, distance, Some precautions are much more complicated and include gowning up, gloves, eye protections, masks. Sometimes two pairs of gloves, two masks, plus faceshield.

Fair enough. I have to admit that, until covid hit, the only time I have experienced anyone in hospital wearing a mask was when I went into an operating theatre.

Almost Canadian Apr 22nd 2022 6:10 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13109515)
And, of course, some information. Some more publicity about how ambulances are queuing outside hospitals unable to unload their patients because the hospitals are full of covid patients.

Maybe something about increased waiting times and 'non-urgent' surgery delayed and how lack of beds, missing staff is actually covid related and not just "the usual" health services issues.

Maybe some "Why is covid killing and hospitalising as many people as before we had vaccines" items in the media with explanations that "yes, the variant isn't as bad for the individual as it was but due to vastly more infections and nobody being careful anymore responsible for making that even worse it kills and hospitalises just as many people."

Perhaps something on "why medical people are recommending masks in schools."

Of course the wearing of masks themselves will raise awareness and reinforce the need for better behaviours.

The trouble is, whether you like it or not, experience has shown us that the WHO didn't react soon enough to prevent people being able to spread the virus all over the world and society's acceptance of what some experts have stated needs to be done to contain it has been tarnished. They keep referring to "the science..." but when asked to produce the science, have not really been able to do so. For example, what science was used to show that truckers that had been perfectly able to travel across the border between Canada and US for 2 years during the pandemic, and were unvaccinated, were now such a risk either side of the border that such travel should have stopped?

printer Apr 22nd 2022 7:57 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by bats (Post 13109344)
If they don"t do any good then i wonder why we bother with them in hospitals?? Why all that fuss with infection control?? Barriers work. what doesnt work are flimsy old badly fitting masks. Supply populations with these and insist on their use.

But the only place currently in BC anyway where masks are still mandatory are hospitals and any medical facility. You are not only asked some basic questions before entering but also supplied with a medical grade surgical mask that must be worn. ALL patients, staff and visitors must adhere to this YET not one but two local hospitals here have new COVID outbreaks. How is this even still a thing when these facilities are amongst the strictest in terms of mask protocol? I'm not hearing about an outbreak at a local pub or store or library or council office, yet all these places are currently mask free as per current rules.

BristolUK Apr 22nd 2022 8:21 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13109562)
But the only place currently in BC anyway where masks are still mandatory are hospitals and any medical facility. You are not only asked some basic questions before entering but also supplied with a medical grade surgical mask that must be worn. ALL patients, staff and visitors must adhere to this YET not one but two local hospitals here have new COVID outbreaks. How is this even still a thing when these facilities are amongst the strictest in terms of mask protocol?

I'm going to take a wild guess and say a combination of masks not being 100% effective coupled with, some procedures requiring removal of masks (not least changing the mask you wore for the one they give you and potential transmission at screening - like being in the doorway or in the less than airy space between two sets of doors :blink: - and that people in hospital might just be more susceptible to infection (because they are ill in some way) or a more pronounced reaction to infection and therefore associated testing.

I'm not hearing about an outbreak at a local pub or store or library or council office, yet all these places are currently mask free as per current rules.
I think it's probably quite a bit easier to conclusively identify where someone temporarily living in a hospital gets covid than someone who has spent time in a pub, restaurant, work, the local library, shopping etc

bats Apr 22nd 2022 9:53 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13109562)
But the only place currently in BC anyway where masks are still mandatory are hospitals and any medical facility. You are not only asked some basic questions before entering but also supplied with a medical grade surgical mask that must be worn. ALL patients, staff and visitors must adhere to this YET not one but two local hospitals here have new COVID outbreaks. How is this even still a thing when these facilities are amongst the strictest in terms of mask protocol? I'm not hearing about an outbreak at a local pub or store or library or council office, yet all these places are currently mask free as per current rules.

Because people leave hospitals? Go home from work? Go out out into the unmasked, unsanitised world. It only takes one breach in infection control for an outbreak to occur, so Joe Bloggs letting that mask slip off his nose is a risk. Believe me I hate maskwearing as I use lipreading to help hear but to me it's the lesser of the evils,

printer Apr 23rd 2022 12:05 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by bats (Post 13109572)
Because people leave hospitals? Go home from work? Go out out into the unmasked, unsanitised world. It only takes one breach in infection control for an outbreak to occur, so Joe Bloggs letting that mask slip off his nose is a risk. Believe me I hate maskwearing as I use lipreading to help hear but to me it's the lesser of the evils,

Yes exactly my point, we are not in a severely restricted country currently so there is a risk wherever you go and certainly some places far more risky than others, this will always be the case without severe government clampdowns which really nobody wants. Yet if we continue to wear a medical mask while inside medical facilities then this should be regarded as pretty safe even if we have a cough or cold because masks work right?
If we are saying that due to certain factors masks are not completely effective inside a hospital setting then god knows how ineffective they in settings that are not in anyway controlled as such and therefore the general mandate is not really addressing the issue. I notice that someone posted a short while back that Philadelphia had reinstated its mask mandate. Today i learned they have now rescinded it yet again! Then there's the US federal airline mask mandate that is way more political than scientific. When a Florida judge can decide the mandate is unlawful and then the whole airline industry decides to do away with masks contrary to medical advice the whole thing becomes a joke. You can go maskless on a US carrier unless it's to a place that has a mandate in place such as Canada then you have to wear one but you don't if you were travelling to UK for example from the US but you do if you are travelling from Canada! The rules just became a complicated political affair with no bearing on scientific medical knowledge, or so it seems to me.

bats Apr 23rd 2022 12:19 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13109587)
Yes exactly my point, we are not in a severely restricted country currently so there is a risk wherever you go and certainly some places far more risky than others, this will always be the case without severe government clampdowns which really nobody wants. Yet if we continue to wear a medical mask while inside medical facilities then this should be regarded as pretty safe even if we have a cough or cold because masks work right?
If we are saying that due to certain factors masks are not completely effective inside a hospital setting then god knows how ineffective they in settings that are not in anyway controlled as such and therefore the general mandate is not really addressing the issue. I notice that someone posted a short while back that Philadelphia had reinstated its mask mandate. Today i learned they have now rescinded it yet again! Then there's the US federal airline mask mandate that is way more political than scientific. When a Florida judge can decide the mandate is unlawful and then the whole airline industry decides to do away with masks contrary to medical advice the whole thing becomes a joke. You can go maskless on a US carrier unless it's to a place that has a mandate in place such as Canada then you have to wear one but you don't if you were travelling to UK for example from the US but you do if you are travelling from Canada! The rules just became a complicated political affair with no bearing on scientific medical knowledge, or so it seems to me.

I refer back to my earlier post that asked if masks aren't effective then why are they used in hospitals? And I don't mean just in the Time of COVID but as part of general infection control practices.
Why is it so hard to wear a mask? They are effective, maybe not 100% because of fit but it's better than nothing. A simple measure that can help others. What is the big deal against wearing them?

printer Apr 23rd 2022 1:33 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by bats (Post 13109590)
I refer back to my earlier post that asked if masks aren't effective then why are they used in hospitals? And I don't mean just in the Time of COVID but as part of general infection control practices.
Why is it so hard to wear a mask? They are effective, maybe not 100% because of fit but it's better than nothing. A simple measure that can help others. What is the big deal against wearing them?

I have visited hospitals many times over the years for myself, my wife and my kids. I have never witnessed general mask use unless its someone carrying out a procedure. When i was in for surgery in 2017 there was nobody in my admissions, pre op or after care that had a mask on and at no time during my several day stay did i see anyone attend to me wearing a mask. While in ER pre COVID with my wife that had suspected pneumonia she was asked to put on a mask as she was coughing a lot and wheezing, she was the only one inside that area that had a mask on at that time. If you watch any pre COVID documentary on TV where ER is featured you will see hardly anyone is wearing a mask whilst often dealing with severely ill people. Watching same updated programs filmed in last 2 years everyone is of course wearing one.
In answer to the question what is the big deal, i would say ask the majority of the population that is no longer wearing one whilst out. If it is so easy and such a small thing to do i would expect a much greater uptake on mask wearing particularly as many governments have said they are still "recommended" yet vast numbers of people are clearly happy to be without one, this to me speaks volumes about the whole mask debate. Bristol had said that wearing one makes people think a bit and lets us know there is still infections spreading around the community but of course the reverse of that is that people don't want a constant reminder that this virus is still out there and they are happy to get back to earlier times when masks were something you put on at Halloween.

bats Apr 23rd 2022 2:10 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13109598)
I have visited hospitals many times over the years for myself, my wife and my kids. I have never witnessed general mask use unless its someone carrying out a procedure. When i was in for surgery in 2017 there was nobody in my admissions, pre op or after care that had a mask on and at no time during my several day stay did i see anyone attend to me wearing a mask. While in ER pre COVID with my wife that had suspected pneumonia she was asked to put on a mask as she was coughing a lot and wheezing, she was the only one inside that area that had a mask on at that time. If you watch any pre COVID documentary on TV where ER is featured you will see hardly anyone is wearing a mask whilst often dealing with severely ill people. Watching same updated programs filmed in last 2 years everyone is of course wearing one.
In answer to the question what is the big deal, i would say ask the majority of the population that is no longer wearing one whilst out. If it is so easy and such a small thing to do i would expect a much greater uptake on mask wearing particularly as many governments have said they are still "recommended" yet vast numbers of people are clearly happy to be without one, this to me speaks volumes about the whole mask debate. Bristol had said that wearing one makes people think a bit and lets us know there is still infections spreading around the community but of course the reverse of that is that people don't want a constant reminder that this virus is still out there and they are happy to get back to earlier times when masks were something you put on at Halloween.

I've worked in hospitals since 1973 so I may have more experience of mask use in them than you do.

What I'm getting from this si that most people have no clue about the effectiveness of masks as they've mostly only seen them on the telly. Your wife was asked to wear one when she was infectious to protect others, Not every sick person is infectious and if they are highly infectious or immunocompromised then they are isolated. That's in a separate room where staff who go in wear PPE appropriate to the illness. At my last hospital, and at the medical centre, reception had a box of masks asking you to wear one if you had a cough or cold symptoms etc.



BristolUK Apr 23rd 2022 1:54 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13109598)
Bristol had said that wearing one makes people think a bit and lets us know there is still infections spreading around the community but of course the reverse of that is that people don't want a constant reminder that this virus is still out there and they are happy to get back to earlier times when masks were something you put on at Halloween.

I don't disagree although I'd amend the underlined part. It's not that they don't want a reminder it's still out there, more that they don't want to think it's still out there and this is what's being encouraged..

Protect the vulnerable - gone
Avoid medical services being overwhelmed - gone
Avoid or at least reduce the chances of the virus spreading - gone

People are behaving and encouraged to behave as if those things no longer matter.

"We knew when we raised the speed limit that there would be more injuries and deaths on the road. It's nothing unexpected. Nobody wants to go back to the old speed limits."


Shard Apr 23rd 2022 4:13 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13109718)
I don't disagree although I'd amend the underlined part. It's not that they don't want a reminder it's still out there, more that they don't want to think it's still out there and this is what's being encouraged..

Protect the vulnerable - gone
Avoid medical services being overwhelmed - gone
Avoid or at least reduce the chances of the virus spreading - gone

People are behaving and encouraged to behave as if those things no longer matter.

"We knew when we raised the speed limit that there would be more injuries and deaths on the road. It's nothing unexpected. Nobody wants to go back to the old speed limits."

Fair comment. But given that the virus is definitely still around, and may surge again in Fall, maybe this current laxity is a kind of pressure valve ? Not sure. What's Bristol's mask/SD protocol at present ?

printer Apr 24th 2022 1:29 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13109718)
I don't disagree although I'd amend the underlined part. It's not that they don't want a reminder it's still out there, more that they don't want to think it's still out there and this is what's being encouraged..

Protect the vulnerable - gone
Avoid medical services being overwhelmed - gone
Avoid or at least reduce the chances of the virus spreading - gone

People are behaving and encouraged to behave as if those things no longer matter.

"We knew when we raised the speed limit that there would be more injuries and deaths on the road. It's nothing unexpected. Nobody wants to go back to the old speed limits."

Well yes but protect the vulnerable can be achieved by vaccination, wearing a mask and limiting contacts in crowded places. I'm pretty sure those that are feeling vulnerable or immunocompromised are doing this to protect themselves best they can because we cannot rely on others to protect us forever.
Medical service have been overwhelmed since forever and prior to COVID every flu season was a challenge and staff being overworked and underpaid has been the subject of much debate over the years.
Reduce the chances of the virus spreading has in effect gone yes but difficult to see how that could be reversed without reverting to more stringent rules and not just adding back in a mask mandate.

BristolUK Apr 24th 2022 3:29 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13109821)
Well yes but protect the vulnerable can be achieved by vaccination, wearing a mask and limiting contacts in crowded places. I'm pretty sure those that are feeling vulnerable or immunocompromised are doing this to protect themselves best they can because we cannot rely on others to protect us forever.

Omicron is proving more infectious. Mask wearing is protecting the vulnerable only if worn by the vast majority not vulnerable people and if they are not doing that then the vulnerable are not as well protected as they could be.




printer Apr 25th 2022 12:02 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13109916)
Omicron is proving more infectious. Mask wearing is protecting the vulnerable only if worn by the vast majority not vulnerable people and if they are not doing that then the vulnerable are not as well protected as they could be.

Yes that may be what we are being told and of course i cannot disagree that both parties wearing a mask is better than one. But we have never lived our lives protecting others as such. We have to look out for ourselves because we cannot rely on other people to do it for us. In the early stages when vulnerable people were dropping like flies we all did our best to shield them from harm. Now that vaccines have played a part and good quality masks are easily available there is less need to continue down this path. We know that in an ideal world everyone will look out for and care for others but this isn't reality in todays world. To make a point when this was in its early stages with delta variant anyone in a care home was at serious risk and many many didn't survive. My mother has been in a care home in UK for few months, she is vaccinated as are the others. Her and 7 other residents all tested positive a week ago, none had any serious symptoms, none required medical attention and all have since got over it. This would have been a totally different outcome prior to vaccines and the Omicron variant, so even though it is more infectious it is not causing the same issues. I cannot deny that there are still too many deaths occurring in UK right now but i am not sure that general mask use would have made a huge difference in this figure without bringing in other measures alongside, this then becomes more of a political game than anything else.

bats Apr 25th 2022 12:42 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13110012)
Yes that may be what we are being told and of course i cannot disagree that both parties wearing a mask is better than one. But we have never lived our lives protecting others as such. We have to look out for ourselves because we cannot rely on other people to do it for us. In the early stages when vulnerable people were dropping like flies we all did our best to shield them from harm. Now that vaccines have played a part and good quality masks are easily available there is less need to continue down this path. We know that in an ideal world everyone will look out for and care for others but this isn't reality in todays world. To make a point when this was in its early stages with delta variant anyone in a care home was at serious risk and many many didn't survive. My mother has been in a care home in UK for few months, she is vaccinated as are the others. Her and 7 other residents all tested positive a week ago, none had any serious symptoms, none required medical attention and all have since got over it. This would have been a totally different outcome prior to vaccines and the Omicron variant, so even though it is more infectious it is not causing the same issues. I cannot deny that there are still too many deaths occurring in UK right now but i am not sure that general mask use would have made a huge difference in this figure without bringing in other measures alongside, this then becomes more of a political game than anything else.

We do live our lives protecting others, by getting vaccinated, by covering our mouths when we sneeze or cough, observing generaal good manners, paying taxes that contribute to welfare, universal healthcare, pensions. masking is just good manners.
If you want to be purely selfish about this then perhaps you'll consider that the amount of non critical COVID illness around is impacting the provision of non COVID healthcare because staff are off on sickleave.

Nand Apr 25th 2022 12:48 am

Re: Coronavirus
 
In my community no one cared about protecting the vulnerable since the original outbreak or since. I learned early that if I wanted to live it would be up to me to do everything in my human power to stay alive by whatever measures I could manage. It hasn't been easy.

printer Apr 25th 2022 1:43 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by bats (Post 13110019)
We do live our lives protecting others, by getting vaccinated, by covering our mouths when we sneeze or cough, observing generaal good manners, paying taxes that contribute to welfare, universal healthcare, pensions. masking is just good manners.
If you want to be purely selfish about this then perhaps you'll consider that the amount of non critical COVID illness around is impacting the provision of non COVID healthcare because staff are off on sickleave.

But to suggest that general good manners is practiced by all is incorrect. Plenty of non taxpayers and offshore rich guys who do not follow the rules, vaccination is by no means 100% and i would suggest that booster shots going forward will have a smaller uptake than prior. If masking is good manners then why is it only now we are being chastised for not doing so? Why weren't you and others wearing one prior to COVID whenever you entered a busy building, a medical facility or were feeling off colour? What is good manners about throwing on a mask to grab some groceries but removing it to sit in the pub for 2 hours with a mix of people? Good manners would be staying well away from people if you are sick and not going out. Good manners is stopping at a red light, observing the speed limit, not using your phone while driving yet all of these are regularly ignored on a daily basis and all could lead to injury for others
Staff are off on sick leave because it's been hammered home that going into work whilst feeling ill is a big fat NO in 2022. In 2018 it was considered acceptable to turn up because the company needed you and it's just a cold/sore throat or whatever, in fact you were frowned upon if you took too many sick days, now we are giving people free sick days with no real consequence. Back in the day a doctors sick note was required to get paid time off, many of us didn't get paid if we took time off so we did what we had to. Whilst the latest rules may be a good thing for employees everywhere it's creating a problem that's difficult to manage especially if a percentage of those sick do not even have COVID. Better safe than sorry maybe but its causing huge problems and not just in healthcare. Almost everywhere you go now there are signs saying "hiring" companies are struggling to recruit but why? Where have the workforce gone? Why is every tire dealer in my town looking for techs? I'm sure they didn't all die from COVID or get burned out from overwork. I can understand the hospitality industry was badly hit and some have changed career but the lack of employees goes much deeper than restaurant servers and chefs. Interestingly a friend said today that when he went to Home Depot the other week he noticed all staff had masks so he went back to truck and got his mask as he felt it was good manners yet he would have continued to shop without one had staff not been wearing them.


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