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-   -   Coronavirus (https://britishexpats.com/forum/maple-leaf-98/coronavirus-930602/)

bats Feb 15th 2022 1:41 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
Firstly, there's no proof that I had COVID, probability says yes, but not testing done.
Secondly, you can get it again.
Thirdly, I like that masks also hinder spread of the common cold, flu, etc.

Regular masks give protection to others from your bugs. N95 masks give protection to the wearer.

Paul_Shepherd Feb 15th 2022 1:53 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13094818)
Or dying with it as the case may be.

You may recall I posted that in January the UK had a daily death total on one day higher than any other single day since February 2021. It wasn't a freakishly high day, just the usual up and down. I'm fairly sure there were fewer and less strict measures this year than a year ago.

Boris "let the bodies pile high" has handled matters very poorly compared to many others and seems the last person to be making decisions.

But it's different from place to place. For most of the last two years people over here have been able to do what they normally do outside of small periodswhere they might not get to a gym for localised reasons but they could in a different are of the province. Or they might only be able to mix with "only" 20 people. Or eat out at 50% capacity (what a hardship for them) or restricted to take-out/delivery only for a bout 2 months over almost two years.

So that's where I live and where I used to live both with high current death rates for a supposedly non threatening variant and both with few, if any, restrictions or blasé attitudes, like not wearing masks in packed out football stadiums.

So no or few restrictions or measures seems to equate to dying with the virus (for some) rather than living with it.

What currently can you not do where you are?

I understand what you are saying, but what's the alternative? we cant go on living like this indefinitely can we? Even some doctors are saying that now.

I really feel for small business owners, many of gone under, many are about to, two of my friends have lost their business's, one owned a bar, another is about to lose his small restaurant.....

I haven't been to a gym/fitness class in over two years, I try to do what I can, but I am probably the most physically out of shape I have been in my life, just when I am at an age when I should be focusing on exercise with on going cardio health, and I don't buy into those stupid peleton things...that's an expensive fad and such a useless non motivational alternative if ever I saw one.

A close family member unexpectedly passed away in the UK at the beginning of the year, I really needed to be at the funeral, not just for obvious reasons, but to help me deal with my grief by being with my family. I studied the Canadian federal border restrictions, and decided it was just too much of risk.... not from getting covid whilst in the UK, that was not my fear, but my fear was being stranded there, and not being able to return to Canada, and therefore putting my job in jeopardy, I have since found that there is somewhat of a loop hole in returning, in that you can travel 10 days after testing positive even if you continue to test positive, I am not sure how true that is. I didn't know this at the time and decided not to go, and now deeply regret my decision.

Personally this was the last straw for me, I have done everything asked of me for two years (particulary when covid was indeed a bigger threat) I have adhered to all covid guidelines and rules, I am triple vaccinated, so I have done all I possibly can, enough is enough, we need to learn to live with it.... Protect the vunerable, get vaccinated and lets move on.



dbd33 Feb 15th 2022 2:24 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd (Post 13094842)
I haven't been to a gym/fitness class in over two years.

Good for you, that's money in the bank. I hope you're able to maintain the streak post-covid.

Danny B Feb 15th 2022 2:50 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by bats (Post 13094839)
Firstly, there's no proof that I had COVID, probability says yes, but not testing done.
Secondly, you can get it again.
Thirdly, I like that masks also hinder spread of the common cold, flu, etc.

Regular masks give protection to others from your bugs. N95 masks give protection to the wearer.

Fairy nuff, whatever makes you feel safe.

Out of all the restrictions we have had, the indoor mask order is the one that I cannot wait to get dropped. In my opinion, poorly fitted cloth masks are no more than facial decorations.

DMajor Feb 15th 2022 4:12 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd (Post 13094842)

Personally this was the last straw for me, I have done everything asked of me for two years (particulary when covid was indeed a bigger threat) I have adhered to all covid guidelines and rules, I am triple vaccinated, so I have done all I possibly can, enough is enough, we need to learn to live with it.... Protect the vunerable, get vaccinated and lets move on.

I feel exactly the same.
Life in Canada right now is miserable.
Empty streets, empty restaurants and bars.
Empty gyms.
Gas prices at all time high.
8% inflation.
Businesses going under all around you.
All for what??



Paul_Shepherd Feb 15th 2022 4:26 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by DMajor (Post 13094867)
I feel exactly the same.
Life in Canada right now is miserable.
Empty streets, empty restaurants and bars.
Empty gyms.
Gas prices at all time high.
8% inflation.
Businesses going under all around you.
All for what??

Just glad I have a job... imagine dealing with that being out of work, that's what has happened to a lot of business owners...

Its a depressing scenario that can't continue indefinitely.

DMajor Feb 15th 2022 6:32 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd (Post 13094868)
Just glad I have a job... imagine dealing with that being out of work, that's what has happened to a lot of business owners...

Its a depressing scenario that can't continue indefinitely.

We are both self employed and lost tons of business.
If the run on the Canadian banks happens (as has been forecast) we might have to go busking for a living..

bats Feb 15th 2022 6:45 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Danny B (Post 13094853)
Fairy nuff, whatever makes you feel safe.

Out of all the restrictions we have had, the indoor mask order is the one that I cannot wait to get dropped. In my opinion, poorly fitted cloth masks are no more than facial decorations.

I agree with you about the cloth masks, especially ones that never get cleaned - hence my preference for an N95. Obviously hasn't been properly fitted but it's not a bad fit.

bc2015 Feb 15th 2022 8:55 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd (Post 13094842)

I haven't been to a gym/fitness class in over two years, I try to do what I can, but I am probably the most physically out of shape I have been in my life, just when I am at an age when I should be focusing on exercise with on going cardio health, and I don't buy into those stupid peleton things...that's an expensive fad and such a useless non motivational alternative if ever I saw one.

I actually was one of those people who bought a Peloton during COVID and it's been a great purchase. I'm now fitter than I've ever been. Obviously it's not quite social like a gym but I was never really a gym person (tried going years ago)


A close family member unexpectedly passed away in the UK at the beginning of the year, I really needed to be at the funeral, not just for obvious reasons, but to help me deal with my grief by being with my family. I studied the Canadian federal border restrictions, and decided it was just too much of risk.... not from getting covid whilst in the UK, that was not my fear, but my fear was being stranded there, and not being able to return to Canada, and therefore putting my job in jeopardy, I have since found that there is somewhat of a loop hole in returning, in that you can travel 10 days after testing positive even if you continue to test positive, I am not sure how true that is. I didn't know this at the time and decided not to go, and now deeply regret my decision.
It is true. I just returned after testing positive while outside of Canada. Once 10 days had passed, I was able to travel with proof of positive test. I didn't need a pre-departure test and wasn't selected for arrival testing.


Personally this was the last straw for me, I have done everything asked of me for two years (particulary when covid was indeed a bigger threat) I have adhered to all covid guidelines and rules, I am triple vaccinated, so I have done all I possibly can, enough is enough, we need to learn to live with it.... Protect the vunerable, get vaccinated and lets move on.
I feel the same way but I also appreciate the cautious approach being taken. Opening up too fast just results in more deaths and more restrictions.

OrangeMango Feb 15th 2022 8:58 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by DMajor (Post 13094867)
I feel exactly the same.
Life in Canada right now is miserable.
Empty streets, empty restaurants and bars.
Empty gyms.
Gas prices at all time high.
8% inflation.
Businesses going under all around you.
All for what??

The problem is that the Canadian government hasn't exactly done an impressive job in the pandemic. I'd say, even the UK under Boris Johnson, whom I distrust deeply, has handled the matter better.

bc2015 Feb 15th 2022 9:46 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by OrangeMango (Post 13094929)
The problem is that the Canadian government hasn't exactly done an impressive job in the pandemic. I'd say, even the UK under Boris Johnson, whom I distrust deeply, has handled the matter better.

What do you think the "Canadian government" could have done better or differently? The UK has a cumulative death rate that is almost 2.5x that of Canada so not sure I would say UK handled it better.

BristolUK Feb 15th 2022 9:59 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 13094835)
My doctor has not been vaccinated. He has had, and recovered from, the virus and, as a result of that, believes that there is no benefit to him having the vaccine. He has a document to this effect posted on the entrance to his surgery and it indicates that he will refer anyone that doesn't want to risk seeing him to another doctor.

The science backs his position so why should he be shown the door?

Does the document say how long ago he had it and recovered? Since the science says that immunity (natural or vax) wears off, hence subsequent doses of the vaccine, it would be useful to know how soon his might wear off and does he propose to get subsequent bouts of Covid? ;)


Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd (Post 13094842)
I understand what you are saying, but what's the alternative? we cant go on living like this indefinitely can we?

The alternative to what? What can't you do apart from go to the gym?

It's tragic that companies have gone under, people lost jobs etc. But all that was at the worst of times wasn't it? When very many more people would have died of covid and many more of treatable conditions that couldn't be treated had covid overwhelmed the hospitals.
Just about every jurisdiction seems to be talking about lifting the last of the restrictions - in the UK including not bothering with masks and when that happened here the government soon realised it was a mistake and that was pre-Omicron!

If everything is basically open, why does there have to be an alternative? Christ there was a time we could only go to the pub at lunchtimes and evenings and then have last orders at 10.20, or the shops were closed on Sundays and bank holidays. It's not as if we never had to accept that not everything was available 24/7.

Personally this was the last straw for me, I have done everything asked of me for two years (particulary when covid was indeed a bigger threat) I have adhered to all covid guidelines and rules, I am triple vaccinated, so I have done all I possibly can, enough is enough, we need to learn to live with it.... Protect the vunerable, get vaccinated and lets move on.
How? How do you propose to protect me and my MIL from the one most likely to get Covid and bring it into the home?

It's just meaningless words. If what you mean is losing a few old and unwell people is a small price to pay for life going on for everyone else, then say so. I can relate to Mr Spock's "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." I just don't think we're 'there' yet.

BristolUK Feb 15th 2022 10:02 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by DMajor (Post 13094867)
Life in Canada right now is miserable.
Empty streets, empty restaurants and bars.
Empty gyms.

Where? Everywhere? All the time?

Danny B Feb 15th 2022 10:14 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13094937)
The alternative to what? What can't you do apart from go to the gym?

Here in BC, you were not able to dance at a wedding :lol:
Thank God some of these rules are being changed tomorrow...
https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/c...o/restrictions

OrangeMango Feb 15th 2022 10:16 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by bc2015 (Post 13094932)
What do you think the "Canadian government" could have done better or differently? The UK has a cumulative death rate that is almost 2.5x that of Canada so not sure I would say UK handled it better.

For starters they could have ordered the vaccines the same way as they did in the UK or in the US. The UK started vaccinating way way sooner.

Also the UK didn't have a senseless and costly snap election which brought no results, not even for the one calling it, and that at a very high cost, money which could have been spent elsewhere. Remember the hallway medicine debate in Ontario? Or childcare? all before the pandemic?

And then there are these ridiculous travel and entry into Canada requirements. The UK tailored mandatory and costly hotel stays by country, but Canada didn't it was for all.
Also the current announcement to finally scrap PCR tests for the vaccinated travelers, but still requiring another test for the vaccinated is a joke. Travelling into the UK is totally easy now, for the vaccinated ones, no further tests, no 48 hours or 72 hours before, or whatever ridiculous time frame, Remember you could infect yourself right after the test, and the result is even then negative......

Yes, you may disagree with my opinion, but again, I don't really see anything positive in Canada's handling of the pandemic. Only that a majority seems to believe that it was good and accept things.

printer Feb 16th 2022 1:01 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Danny B (Post 13094942)
Here in BC, you were not able to dance at a wedding :lol:
Thank God some of these rules are being changed tomorrow...
https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/c...o/restrictions

Some of this is totally ridiculous. I mean they say you can now "mingle" in a restaurant. What exactly are the rules for this? Masks are still mandatory when not seated so in order to mingle i must stand up put on mask and walk to another table at which point i must stay masked up if standing while talking to the seated unmasked people or if i can find a spare chair to pull up he presto i can remove my mask until returning to my table. :unsure: Then there is the nightclubs and bars where you can now enjoy full capacity BUT according to the revised order dancing is ok yet:
  • Dancing is allowed when wearing a mask indoor
I'm sure clubbers would be thrilled with this idea. It seems nonsensical to allow full seated capacity at a restaurant and allow removal of all the protective screens between tables and other barriers while all the double vaccinated people are happily enjoying their drinks and meals without masks yet we still have to put one on to enter or leave the premises.

bats Feb 16th 2022 2:24 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by OrangeMango (Post 13094929)
The problem is that the Canadian government hasn't exactly done an impressive job in the pandemic. I'd say, even the UK under Boris Johnson, whom I distrust deeply, has handled the matter better.

Have you forgotten that Canada has several governments and health is run by the provincial ones?

OrangeMango Feb 16th 2022 9:35 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by bats (Post 13094971)
Have you forgotten that Canada has several governments and health is run by the provincial ones?

No, I haven't. But I could also use the same tone and say, have you forgotten that health and the NHS is devolved in the UK?

dbd33 Feb 16th 2022 11:15 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by OrangeMango (Post 13095017)
No, I haven't. But I could also use the same tone and say, have you forgotten that health and the NHS is devolved in the UK?

Surely this just comes down to deaths. The UK had proportionately many more deaths and so the pandemic was handled less well in the UK.

BristolUK Feb 16th 2022 12:34 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Danny B (Post 13094942)
Here in BC, you were not able to dance at a wedding :lol:

I could never do that anyway. I cringe at the memory of my brother's wedding do when I asked the DJ for a particular song to be played for the couple, only for the DJ to play it, preceded by insisting I come to the dance floor and dance with the bride. Nobody else dancing at that moment, just me and her. In front of everyone. I can't dance. Please, floor, open up and swallow me.

It seemed like hours before anyone joined us.

BristolUK Feb 16th 2022 12:35 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by OrangeMango (Post 13094943)
For starters they could have ordered the vaccines the same way as they did in the UK or in the US. The UK started vaccinating way way sooner.

The UK needed to because of the way the government had cocked it all up at that time.

OrangeMango Feb 16th 2022 1:08 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 13095033)
Surely this just comes down to deaths. The UK had proportionately many more deaths and so the pandemic was handled less well in the UK.

In that respect yes.
However the bureaucracy I've seen in other countries regarding getting vaccinated was just a nightmare.
Just think about Canada. Today on CBC Radio 1, a woman speaking about getting vaccinated in Newfoundland, and once in Ontario, is now 3 times vaccinated, but is so far refused the QR code.
I've known of people who received their first dose in mainland Europe and the 2nd and 3rd in the UK on the NHS, - and hand no problems, getting that one recognized. QR code et all.

I think Australia was even worse, and way slower.
What I also missed very much is being a bit more open minded about regulations. Especially countries like Australia, NZ and Canada could have looked a bit more at the UK, had a bit more open minded conversations on how to proceed, - at least in the Commonwealth, I would have expected that.

BristolUK Feb 16th 2022 1:26 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
The Beaverton

Peaceful guns, democratic machetes seized from Alberta convoy protest

Sources report that the RCMP have arrested 11 people at the Coutts border blockade who planned to peacefully participate in the democratic process with firearms, body armour and voluminous ammunition caches.

“This convoy supports the exchange of ideas through civil discourse,” a lawyer for the detained said. “And sometimes the best way to politely exchange ideas is through the use of high-capacity magazines.”

The RCMP seized 18’’ voting machetes, civic engagement body armour, and difference of opinion handguns, among other items....
...and so on :rofl:

BristolUK Feb 16th 2022 1:43 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by OrangeMango (Post 13095065)
Just think about Canada. Today on CBC Radio 1, a woman speaking about getting vaccinated in Newfoundland, and once in Ontario, is now 3 times vaccinated, but is so far refused the QR code..

Yes I heard that. Not so much refused, just not being recognised. And obviously freakish circumstances, not helped by her decision to get vaccinated in a province she was visiting rather than resident in and not having a health card appropriate to that province.

I'm not sure what the rules were on visiting different households at the time, let alone going to another province where such things have been at least discouraged in these parts so it may have been unwise to have travelled, possibly broken the different household rules depending on how many households she involved and now made worse by using a health authority that doesn't match her health card.

Of course it's bureaucracy but it shouldn't come as a surprise.

This province, NB, recognises proof of the jabs - in my case that's one document with the original 2 jabs and then one with the booster - as well as the QR code. In addition, from the official government site I can print proof of all three jabs and there's a fourth option with a green tick just for the province.

Four different options of proof, easily obtainable. Five if you include printing the code.

If 'backward' NB can do that so can all the other provinces.

OrangeMango Feb 16th 2022 2:15 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13095075)
Yes I heard that. Not so much refused, just not being recognised. And obviously freakish circumstances, not helped by her decision to get vaccinated in a province she was visiting rather than resident in and not having a health card appropriate to that province.

I'm not sure what the rules were on visiting different households at the time, let alone going to another province where such things have been at least discouraged in these parts so it may have been unwise to have travelled, possibly broken the different household rules depending on how many households she involved and now made worse by using a health authority that doesn't match her health card.

Of course it's bureaucracy but it shouldn't come as a surprise.

This province, NB, recognises proof of the jabs - in my case that's one document with the original 2 jabs and then one with the booster - as well as the QR code. In addition, from the official government site I can print proof of all three jabs and there's a fourth option with a green tick just for the province.

Four different options of proof, easily obtainable. Five if you include printing the code.

If 'backward' NB can do that so can all the other provinces.

The thing is I was missing the flexibility and the reality as well.
It's not unusual to move from province A to province B during the pandemic, temporarily or otherwise. Also if you were offered the vaccine in any province for whatever reason, any of us would have grabbed the chance and gotten vaccinated. Remember in the early days, it was hard to get the vaccine.

And the reason for travel might not be as punishing-happy provincial politicians assume leisure and vacation, but simply job reasons, income earing a livelihood.
Thus I think it's not too much to ask to have some flexibility on people getting vaccinated in different provinces.

The case of this woman which was reported on CBC Radio 1 is most likely not the only isolated case. She did what was asked from her, gotten vaccinated, and get's a treatment same as somebody who refused the vaccine.

Yes, the UK had a higher death rate, and Canada a lower one, but Canada didn't exactly impress on flexibility and reasoning.
I often think that Canada was only seen as doing better by those people and the kind of media who believe in the government and their decisions.
It was always a bit of believe what you want to believe or think you have to believe than realistic approaches.

Same goes for the travel restrictions or the snap election by Trudeau.



Almost Canadian Feb 16th 2022 2:39 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13094937)
Does the document say how long ago he had it and recovered? Since the science says that immunity (natural or vax) wears off, hence subsequent doses of the vaccine, it would be useful to know how soon his might wear off and does he propose to get subsequent bouts of Covid? ;)

No it doesn't. As you are likely aware, those that have been infected have protection that lasts longer than those that have only been vaccinated, so your point is somewhat moot.

BristolUK Feb 16th 2022 2:48 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by OrangeMango (Post 13095081)
It's not unusual to move from province A to province B during the pandemic, temporarily or otherwise.

Oh but it was in the part of Canada concerned. At the beginning there was an outright ban on people crossing provincial borders in Atlantic Canada with very few exceptions, like people who lived one side of the border and worked the other side.

As time went by rules relaxed a bit and some limited border crossing was allowed but you had to register your intended plans in advance and then present the necessary documents when you wanted to cross. There were different rules at different times, some requiring self isolation. Different areas (even within a province) had different phases of 'pandemic recovery' to others that at any time might have limited people to their own household, only 2 households, 10 people and so on.

As I stated there is a very good chance that she broke covid rules on households and numbers in addition to crossing the border, which even when rules totally relaxed was still discouraged.

Also if you were offered the vaccine in any province for whatever reason, any of us would have grabbed the chance and gotten vaccinated. Remember in the early days, it was hard to get the vaccine.
Absolutely. I'd do it too. But I would do it knowing that while it protected me it's a different jurisdiction and might cause an issue when somewhere else.

OrangeMango Feb 16th 2022 3:27 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13095086)
Oh but it was in the part of Canada concerned. At the beginning there was an outright ban on people crossing provincial borders in Atlantic Canada with very few exceptions, like people who lived one side of the border and worked the other side.

As time went by rules relaxed a bit and some limited border crossing was allowed but you had to register your intended plans in advance and then present the necessary documents when you wanted to cross. There were different rules at different times, some requiring self isolation. Different areas (even within a province) had different phases of 'pandemic recovery' to others that at any time might have limited people to their own household, only 2 households, 10 people and so on.

As I stated there is a very good chance that she broke covid rules on households and numbers in addition to crossing the border, which even when rules totally relaxed was still discouraged.

Absolutely. I'd do it too. But I would do it knowing that while it protected me it's a different jurisdiction and might cause an issue when somewhere else.

The thing is, a vaccine is still a vaccine, no matter where it's administered, provided it's the same manufacturer, Pfizer, Moderna, J&J for instance. That's at least how I see it, but opinions often differed more during the pandemic. Same storm, but everybody in a different size boat.

Actually come to think of it now, the UK made a silly fuss on that, allowing more travel only for those who would demonstrate a vaccination by the NHS and not by another country.

dbd33 Feb 16th 2022 3:47 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by OrangeMango (Post 13095065)
In that respect yes.
However the bureaucracy I've seen in other countries regarding getting vaccinated was just a nightmare.
Just think about Canada. Today on CBC Radio 1, a woman speaking about getting vaccinated in Newfoundland, and once in Ontario, is now 3 times vaccinated, but is so far refused the QR code.
I've known of people who received their first dose in mainland Europe and the 2nd and 3rd in the UK on the NHS, - and hand no problems, getting that one recognized. QR code et all.

I think Australia was even worse, and way slower.
What I also missed very much is being a bit more open minded about regulations. Especially countries like Australia, NZ and Canada could have looked a bit more at the UK, had a bit more open minded conversations on how to proceed, - at least in the Commonwealth, I would have expected that.

What would be the value in having a QR code? (Note that I looked up what a QR code is on seeing this post, I now know what it is but not why one someone should want one).

OrangeMango Feb 16th 2022 3:49 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by dbd33 (Post 13095096)
What would be the value in having a QR code? (Note that I looked up what a QR code is on seeing this post, I now know what it is but not why one someone should want one).

It's just that one is almost always asked for a QR code to prove the vaccination status.

dbd33 Feb 16th 2022 4:03 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by OrangeMango (Post 13095097)
It's just that one is almost always asked for a QR code to prove the vaccination status.

I've never had one, never been asked. I guess I must go to the wrong sorts of places, that or I'm an example of Canada's failed vaccine roll out.

Paul_Shepherd Feb 16th 2022 4:42 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13094937)
Does the document say how long ago he had it and recovered? Since the science says that immunity (natural or vax) wears off, hence subsequent doses of the vaccine, it would be useful to know how soon his might wear off and does he propose to get subsequent bouts of Covid? ;)


The alternative to what? What can't you do apart from go to the gym?

It's tragic that companies have gone under, people lost jobs etc. But all that was at the worst of times wasn't it? When very many more people would have died of covid and many more of treatable conditions that couldn't be treated had covid overwhelmed the hospitals.
Just about every jurisdiction seems to be talking about lifting the last of the restrictions - in the UK including not bothering with masks and when that happened here the government soon realised it was a mistake and that was pre-Omicron!

If everything is basically open, why does there have to be an alternative? Christ there was a time we could only go to the pub at lunchtimes and evenings and then have last orders at 10.20, or the shops were closed on Sundays and bank holidays. It's not as if we never had to accept that not everything was available 24/7.

How? How do you propose to protect me and my MIL from the one most likely to get Covid and bring it into the home?

It's just meaningless words. If what you mean is losing a few old and unwell people is a small price to pay for life going on for everyone else, then say so. I can relate to Mr Spock's "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." I just don't think we're 'there' yet.

My earlier post stated not being able to do a lot more than not go to the gym, even though I think that is just as important as avioiding covid for a persons health. At present its any social event that is off the table, being social is huge part if who I am and many other people out there, its part of their mental well being. Sometimes I don't see another person for a week, I am still working at home and I hate it, it drives me nuts! I couldn't travel to attend a funeral that was extremely important to me. I have since spoke to my sister in the UK, and she and my nephew had covid, following the funeral, so I am pretty sure I would have been stranded there due to border restrictions, albeit not how I initially thought... just a possible extra 10 days.... which is bad enough.

When I say protect the vunerable, there are steps people can take to do this... for example rapid tests, they should be made more easily available, so they can be used to test yourself before coming into close contact with the vunerable, if you have been out in the open world. A friend of mine does this with his elderly mom.

We have to live along side this, we just can't carry on like this. In essence what you seem to be saying is that we should carry on with these restrictions indefinitely? That is just not a sustainable plan... maybe for some who lock themselves away and don't go any where, but for the majority of people the last 2 years have not been a normal way of life.

The majority have done what's been asked of them, now is the time to move forward and try and find some sort of post covid normalcy again.



BristolUK Feb 16th 2022 4:53 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 13095084)
No it doesn't. As you are likely aware, those that have been infected have protection that lasts longer than those that have only been vaccinated, so your point is somewhat moot.

Source please.

That was not the case the last time we discussed it. The last study that a lot of people seized on confirmed there was a level of protection from getting it and recovering, but not for those that didn't recover or got long covid.

Has there been something since? Remember your words as bolded. Perhaps you meant natural immunity after recovering and being vaccinated.

BristolUK Feb 16th 2022 5:07 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd (Post 13095107)
My earlier post stated not being able to do a lot more than not go to the gym,

Yes, but past tense, no?

Things have changed so when you ask "what is the alternative?" that means now, rather than than then. So what is it you are unable to now?

At present its any social event that is off the table...being social is huge part if who I am and many other people out there
Is it? You can't go to a restaurant or bar?

It's my understanding that from tomorrow Ontario is
  • Increasing social gathering limits to 50 people indoors and 100 people outdoors.
  • Removing capacity limits at places like Restaurants, bars and other food or drink establishments without dance facilities, Cinemas, Meeting and event spaces, including conference centres or convention centres, Casinos, bingo halls and other gaming establishments
So that means that you can currently have social gatherings, go to restaurants, bars, cinema etc.

When I say protect the vunerable, there are steps people can take to do this... for example rapid tests
How does that prevent my stepdaughter coming home from work daily with the virus? If she's been exposed and infected it could be days before anything shows up on a test and it's too late by then.

What do we do, tell her she has to move out?


In essence what you seem to be saying is that we should carry on with these restrictions indefinitely?
I don't know why you keep saying this. There are barely any restrictions left and those left are shortly to be removed.
For Ontario there's another big step in a couple of weeks.

I'm happy for measures to be eased, just not too much too soon, like the UK.

Almost Canadian Feb 16th 2022 5:58 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13095111)
Source please.

That was not the case the last time we discussed it. The last study that a lot of people seized on confirmed there was a level of protection from getting it and recovering, but not for those that didn't recover or got long covid.

Has there been something since? Remember your words as bolded. Perhaps you meant natural immunity after recovering and being vaccinated.


No. The data from the CDC ranks protection as follows:

1) Those with the vaccine that had been infected;
2) Those without the vaccine that had been infected; and
3) Those with the vaccine that had not been infected.

There was very little difference between 1 and 2 and a little more difference between those and 3. However, the main reason why boosters have become required is because of the waning effect of the vaccines. Natural immunity wanes too, but not as quickly as the immunity provided by the vaccine. Of course, one has to survive being unvaccinated and infected but amounts of deaths when compared to the amount of infections shows that, in essence, it is the old and the infirm that succomb as can be seen from the current deaths by those that have been vaccinated.

bats Feb 16th 2022 6:51 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by OrangeMango (Post 13095017)
No, I haven't. But I could also use the same tone and say, have you forgotten that health and the NHS is devolved in the UK?

Not sure what you mean by this?

The restrictions in England ( no knowledge of the other UK countries) were stricter than those in Ontario. At one stage people were only allowed out if the house for an hour a day, no travelling, must use the nearest supermarket. Considering how much you've talked against the travel quarantine I'm surprised to hear you praising this set up

​​

OrangeMango Feb 16th 2022 10:48 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by bats (Post 13095137)
Not sure what you mean by this?

The restrictions in England ( no knowledge of the other UK countries) were stricter than those in Ontario. At one stage people were only allowed out if the house for an hour a day, no travelling, must use the nearest supermarket. Considering how much you've talked against the travel quarantine I'm surprised to hear you praising this set up

​​

You're most likely correct in your statement. I actually meant the restrictions at the border, entry requirements etc...

I think Canada is going too far to still require tests for vaccinated Canadians.

BristolUK Feb 16th 2022 10:48 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13095111)
Perhaps you meant natural immunity after recovering and being vaccinated.


Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 13095129)
No. The data from the CDC ranks protection as follows:

1) Those with the vaccine that had been infected;
2) Those without the vaccine that had been infected; and
3) Those with the vaccine that had not been infected.

So you did mean being being vaccinated and recovered from infection then.

You're probably referring to this which I found more easily on ABC than CDC

Both vaccination and a prior infection provided protection against another infection and hospitalization due to COVID-19 during the United States' delta wave, according to a study released Wednesday by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
Note that it says a prior infection, so that makes it followed by vaccination.

So your doctor who "has had, and recovered from, the virus and, as a result of that, believes that there is no benefit to him having the vaccine" is wrong according to the information you are referencing. Are you going to tell him that the CDC says there is a benefit to him adding the protection of the vaccine? ;)

...the main reason why boosters have become required is because of the waning effect of the vaccines. Natural immunity wanes too, but not as quickly as the immunity provided by the vaccine.
From the same link about CDC findings.

The analysis found that before delta became the predominant variant in June, vaccination offered better protection against breakthrough infections than prior infection offered against reinfection. But after delta became dominant, this trend shifted, with prior infection offering slightly better protection. However, this also coincides with a time when many Americans were several months out from their shots, and before boosters were authorized.
That appears to be saying that after Delta, prior infection became slightly better than vaccination but it makes the point that prior infections would have included those more recent whereas prior vaccinations would have been less recent and therefore subject to waning over a longer perod. That's not the same as one wearing off more quickly than the other it's saying that more time had elapsed since last jabs than last infections.

Also

Notably, the study was conducted prior to the emergence of the omicron variant, and before the widespread availability of booster shots, thus, researchers warned that results cannot be directly applied to the nation's current surge. In addition, the analysis did not include data pertaining to the severity of initial infections, and hospitalization data was only pulled from California.
So maybe not as definitive as you suggested.

And finally...

When asked repeatedly on Wednesday during a press briefing whether the data were showing that when delta was prominent, having had an infection provided greater protection against a subsequent infection than from being vaccinated, a CDC representative insisted that vaccination is still the safest way to protect oneself.

Almost Canadian Feb 17th 2022 1:03 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13095180)
So you did mean being being vaccinated and recovered from infection then.

You're probably referring to this which I found more easily on ABC than CDC

Note that it says a prior infection, so that makes it followed by vaccination.

No. I know what it says and I am happy with my interpretation of it, just as I am confident that you are happy with your interpretation of the data too.


Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13095180)
So your doctor who "has had, and recovered from, the virus and, as a result of that, believes that there is no benefit to him having the vaccine" is wrong according to the information you are referencing. Are you going to tell him that the CDC says there is a benefit to him adding the protection of the vaccine? ;)

No. He is acutely aware of the data himself and, as he is my neighbour, I know what he thinks about this which is, in essence, the benefit that he would gain would be outweighed by the side affects he could experience (he is elderly and has a dicky ticker).


Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13095180)
From the same link about CDC findings.

That appears to be saying that after Delta, prior infection became slightly better than vaccination but it makes the point that prior infections would have included those more recent whereas prior vaccinations would have been less recent and therefore subject to waning over a longer perod. That's not the same as one wearing off more quickly than the other it's saying that more time had elapsed since last jabs than last infections.

Also

So maybe not as definitive as you suggested.

And finally...

None of that changes my view and I suspect that, as more and more data emerges, the narrative that "the only way to protect yourself is to get vaccinated" will change too, particularly if the science is actually put front and centre.

Almost Canadian Feb 17th 2022 1:07 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13095115)
How does that prevent my stepdaughter coming home from work daily with the virus? If she's been exposed and infected it could be days before anything shows up on a test and it's too late by then.

What do we do, tell her she has to move out?

Not really. The compromised in your household could wear respirators and, if they feel the urge to, full Nuclear, Biological and Chemical suits too. I am sure you will state that this would be inconvenient, but what price must be paid for safety?


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