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-   -   Coronavirus (https://britishexpats.com/forum/maple-leaf-98/coronavirus-930602/)

scrubbedexpat091 Aug 31st 2021 12:42 am

Re: Coronavirus
 
Hospitalizations continue to climb in BC, up 32% from last Monday with ICU up 15% from a week ago.

Good news is vaccinations over the weekend were up 77% from the previous weekend, with an average of 5,723 1st doses each day.

28% of the new cases reported today were in Fraser Health, lower vaccination rate in Chilliwack and Hope in part leading to the increase, Chilliwack hospital has 3 patients so far testing positive in their hospital outbreak.

small, informal social gatherings are driving the increase in Fraser Health, particularly with the unvaccinated with unvaccinated having about 8 times more cases than partially or fully vaccinated.

Some walk in clinics throughout the province are also doing vaccines.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...g-30-1.6158122

caretaker Aug 31st 2021 12:43 am

Re: Coronavirus
 
As case numbers increase, ICU beds are in short supply:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saska...urge-1.6158408

scrubbedexpat091 Aug 31st 2021 12:50 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by caretaker (Post 13046193)
As case numbers increase, ICU beds are in short supply:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saska...urge-1.6158408

And even if you have the beds, still need the staff, last year in the US some hospitals had the physical beds, just didn't have the nurses and support staff to put patients in the beds.

Canada has been downgrade to a level 3 warning by the US State Department, was at level 1 until Aug 10 when downgraded to level 2. Level 3 is a reconsider travel warning, 4 is the highest which is do not travel level.

scrubbedexpat091 Aug 31st 2021 2:44 am

Re: Coronavirus
 
This chart breaks down vaccination rate by health authority in BC, not sure what is going on up north. (note the chart doesn't break it down by eligible population, but full population hence why they may appear lower than the numbers media uses as they often use the of eligible population so the numbers within the eligible are higher, however this is how it stands when you include all the youngsters not eligible yet.)

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...5b6c45f7d3.png


https://covid19tracker.ca/provincevac.html?p=BC

Siouxie Aug 31st 2021 2:54 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Mordko (Post 13046124)
Will follow the court challenge with interest. Assuming the Forbes article is correct, Dr Henry will win the case easily.

Besides, the passport system gives incentives and encourages. Its the carrot rather than the stick. Without mass vaccination in Canada, nobody would be able to go to any public events except the absolutely essential ones. The fact most Canadians over 12 have acted reasonably is why things are improving so the rewards are due to them. Those that chose the other option are not losing out; they are also benefiting from risk reduction when they go shopping but a concert or travel is something that wouldn’t even happen had everyone followed their example.

And I do so wish we had someone with a backbone in Ottawa and a little more focused on the country and less on winning his majority. We would have had a single system across the country rather than this hotchpotch.

Each Province is a law unto themselves.. the Federal Government cannot direct the Provinces, only request...


Mordko Aug 31st 2021 4:07 am

Re: Coronavirus
 
Except that there are a lot of Federal laws and regulations and they are very much enforced.

Feds could issue vaccine “passports” in the same manner they issue actual passports without involvement of the provinces if they wanted to. For example:

1. Develop a single Canadian standard for a proof of vaccination document
2. Specify application process and what individuals have to submit, eg
- Go to a doctor.

- Ask them to print a copy of your provincial immunization record and certify it as a true copy (as they can do for a Cdn passport or OAS applications).
- Take/send the certified copy and POV (proof of vaccination) application to your nearest Service Canada office.
- Pick up or have Service Canada mail your card in 1-2 weeks.
3. Implement a consistent set of requirements across Federally regulated industries.
4. Encourage businesses to follow suit. Most will be happy to oblige.

5. Tell Kenney and his cronies to take a hike. Most provincial governments are on board by now.

In fact, the feds are finally doing it for international travel because they have no choice. They are also bribing the provinces with our/taxpayer money to implement a hotchpotch mess of a system within the country.

Paul_Shepherd Aug 31st 2021 11:22 am

Re: Coronavirus
 
Just my simple viewpoint on the whole vaccine and passport thing....

I get that people feel their civil liberties are being taken away with vaccine passports and they should have the choice in whether to have the vaccine or not.....

But....

......and I am sure many others feel the same...as far as I can see vaccination is the only way out of this and the only way to break the chain, so if having the vaccine and introducing vaccine passports gets us back to normal so we can put all this crap behind us, then I am all for it.... its a good trade off in my book. Call it a passport back to normality!! Lets move on!!!

scrubbedexpat091 Sep 1st 2021 2:25 am

Re: Coronavirus
 
some charts that may be of interest form BC today.

Cases tend to be highest in areas such as Kamloops, the Cariboo Chilcotin and Nechako regions where vaccination rates are also some of the lowest, central Okanagen is going showing improvement with the exception of Creston, Nelson, Enderby, and Vernon area.

Good news is the spike in vaccination rates are in some of these places with the highest cases, so people are getting their rear ends in gear, makes sense as you probably wont see much of a spike in areas with high vaccination rates already.

Only 7 people under the age of 10 admitted to hospital over the past month, all recovered, and while cases have increased in children its not rising rapidly, approx. 650,000 people in BC under age of 12 who are not eligible for the vaccine yet.


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...dc35b81cdf.jpg

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...b05ab69cc4.jpg

scilly Sep 1st 2021 2:27 am

Re: Coronavirus
 
The problem is with calling these things "vaccination passports".

For heaven's sake, having to show a "vaccination record" is NOT unusual .............. every parent of a child has to show that before a child can enter kindergarten here in BC, or provide reason for the child not having been vaccinated.

That is for exactly the same reason that the record for covid vaccination is being mandated ................. to protect others as well as the individual.

Jerseygirl Sep 1st 2021 12:14 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by scilly (Post 13046579)
The problem is with calling these things "vaccination passports".

For heaven's sake, having to show a "vaccination record" is NOT unusual .............. every parent of a child has to show that before a child can enter kindergarten here in BC, or provide reason for the child not having been vaccinated.

That is for exactly the same reason that the record for covid vaccination is being mandated ................. to protect others as well as the individual.

Can’t remember whether we had to show proof or sign a declaration for vaccinations, when my daughter attended school in New Jersey. It had to be done every year before the beginning of the school year.

spouse of scouse Sep 1st 2021 12:30 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by scilly (Post 13046579)

For heaven's sake, having to show a "vaccination record" is NOT unusual .............. every parent of a child has to show that before a child can enter kindergarten here in BC, or provide reason for the child not having been vaccinated.

Same here Scilly, Australia has a 'No Jab No Pay' policy which means if children don't have all their immunisations the parents lose the Family Tax Benefit and the Child Care Subsidy. Parents of children with a medical exemption recorded on the government's immunisation register are exempt, but there are no exemptions on religious, cultural or 'I don't believe in vaccinations' grounds. All children under 19 are offered a free 'catch up' program of immunisations so there really is no excuse.



Jerseygirl Sep 1st 2021 1:07 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by spouse of scouse (Post 13046743)
Same here Scilly, Australia has a 'No Jab No Pay' policy which means if children don't have all their immunisations the parents lose the Family Tax Benefit and the Child Care Subsidy. Parents of children with a medical exemption recorded on the government's immunisation register are exempt, but there are no exemptions on religious, cultural or 'I don't believe in vaccinations' grounds. All children under 19 are offered a free 'catch up' program of immunisations so there really is no excuse.

What a great idea. :thumbsup:

scrubbedexpat091 Sep 1st 2021 7:02 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Jerseygirl (Post 13046754)
Whar a great idea. :thumbsup:

Some US states have removed religious and cultural exemptions, only 6 but the list is slowly growing.

California, Mississippi, West Virginia, CT, New York & Maine,

Plus the US territories of American Samoa, Guam, US Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico, & Northern Mariana Islands.

US wouldn't be able to bring in federal law really because public health, vaccines, schools are a state level responsibility and feds have limited ability to stomp on states rights.


Anyhow I wouldn't say adults having to suddenly show vaccine records is exactly normal and is pretty unusual at least in Canada where most adults have likely never needed to produce their actual vaccine records for their day to day life in Canada.

I've never once been asked in my adult life had to produce a vaccine record, which I couldn't do anyhow since there are no records, well I have one now with COVID, if I ever needed to prove childhood vaccinations, I would need to get vaccinated again to produce the records, since my 1970's and 80's era paper records are not longer in existence and the doctor who did them long dead and well beyond the requirement of retaining medical records which is like 5 years I think in California.

I am okay with vaccine passports for non-essential things, I am vaccinated but I also don't go to any of the places on the list, so I feel no rush to get the vaccine card when they begin offering it for downloading whatever their plan is, its been a little vague so far and likely rushed, so will be interesting to see what they come up with to make it secure and apparently difficult to fake.

scilly Sep 1st 2021 7:31 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
I had to produce evidence that I had had a smallpox vaccination when we entered the US for a several month stay back in the late '60s. It was awful having to have it as an adult. It's the only time I have had a bad reaction at the vaccination site.

And, I think I have already posted, that we had to produce evidence that our 15 month old daughter had to have proof of smallpox vaccination, as well as ourselves being asked to make a declaration that we'd had one. She couldn't be vaccinated because she had a slight case of eczema when our doctor saw her, so he had to write a letter explaining all this. Apparently the vaccine would immediately affect the area affected by eczema ............ it seems that live vaccine was being used at that time.

We had to show that letter to Immigration on entering Australia, and they had to call a doctor out to the airport to physically examine the child before we could enter. That was in the mid '70s.

So, yes, we have had to show proof of vaccinations at certain stages of our life., as well as for our daughter's school. As Jerseygirl said above, we had to confirm those vaccinations at the start of every school year.

It is even stricter in BC now, kiddies who have not been vaccinated have to have it done before they can start kindergarten, and I think religious reasons may still be a reason, though I'm not sure about "personal choise" is allowed.

All childhood vaccinations are free here, as part of the medical system. There are some that have to be paid for, eg vaccination for Yellow Fever ............. which OH had to have before going to certain parts of Asia. Flu vaccination is free for certain people, eg over 65, health care workers, but others have to pay..

scrubbedexpat091 Sep 1st 2021 8:22 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
I don't have small pox vaccine, probably never will, the US had stopped giving it by the time I was born in 1979 (routine small pox vaccination stopped in 1972 in the US, so pretty much anyone born after 1972 didn't get it.)







scrubbedexpat091 Sep 1st 2021 9:49 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
Protestors today at VGH. Apparently anti vaccine protest of some sort.

City cam screen shots from reddit.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...75306c2f6f.jpg


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...5e50767e2a.jpg

printer Sep 1st 2021 10:10 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Jsmth321 (Post 13046899)
Protestors today at VGH. Apparently anti vaccine protest of some sort.

City cam screen shots from reddit.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...75306c2f6f.jpg


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...5e50767e2a.jpg

Protests all over at various hospital sites around BC. They think 600 to 700 people were at Kelowna today. And we shouldn't be surprised at this it was never going to be 100% of the people in agreement. I just wonder how long before various unions start getting involved and strike action is talked about. It doesn't take much for some of these unionized places to start talking about action.

scrubbedexpat091 Sep 1st 2021 11:25 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13046911)
Protests all over at various hospital sites around BC. They think 600 to 700 people were at Kelowna today. And we shouldn't be surprised at this it was never going to be 100% of the people in agreement. I just wonder how long before various unions start getting involved and strike action is talked about. It doesn't take much for some of these unionized places to start talking about action.

I don't know how the nurses union feels about COVID vaccine but historically they have been against mandatory flu shots so it wouldn't be the first time a healthcare union was against mandatory vaccines.

It was right before this pandemic that the nurses union was proud they had gotten the mandatory flu vaccine policy amended, their announcement from December 2019.

Looking at a couple articles seems the nurses union doesn't support or encourage mandatory vaccines but would tell its members to comply if required, so the union doesn't appear to be planning to fight it, at least the nurses union.


"B.C. Nurses’ Union – which has 6,506 members who work in long-term care and assisted living – said it would tell its members to comply if Henry made the order, it’s not advocating for mandatory immunizations."





caretaker Sep 1st 2021 11:44 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
People with so little class that they protest outside a hospital should be locked up, arraigned the following day, released on bail so they can seek representation then convicted of public mischief, fined a thousand or two, and be saddled with a criminal record. Not nearly as harsh as my first impulse, which was have about 10 dog handlers run in with attack dogs and terrify the shit out of them.

printer Sep 2nd 2021 1:58 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by caretaker (Post 13046939)
People with so little class that they protest outside a hospital should be locked up, arraigned the following day, released on bail so they can seek representation then convicted of public mischief, fined a thousand or two, and be saddled with a criminal record. Not nearly as harsh as my first impulse, which was have about 10 dog handlers run in with attack dogs and terrify the shit out of them.

Maybe but the organization that arranged these protests are called Canadian front line nurses so i would imagine that outside health care facilities would be where they may well congregate. I don't know anything about this organization and how many "nurses" are members and agree with the protests but it seems its not some random anti anything group. This protest was announced a while back saying various BC hospitals would be the location for the protests so it's not really a surprise to the media.
From August 28th
https://infotel.ca/newsitem/kamloops...ptions/it85417
From their website
https://www.canadianfrontlinenurses.ca/events

scrubbedexpat091 Sep 2nd 2021 3:40 am

Re: Coronavirus
 
Found some more info on 2 of the nurses who apparently lead that group. They have done a wonderful job ensuring their names show up as top results on google, so maybe it will keep them from being employed as nurses anywhere else.

One was terminated with cause by London Health Sciences Centre for her role in a lock down protest in November.

The nurse in the link above plus another from that nurses group were also being investigator by the regulator of nurses in Ontario, as both just happened to be in Washington DC attending a lockdown protest on the day of the Capitol riot.





Originally Posted by printer (Post 13046970)
Maybe but the organization that arranged these protests are called Canadian front line nurses so i would imagine that outside health care facilities would be where they may well congregate. I don't know anything about this organization and how many "nurses" are members and agree with the protests but it seems its not some random anti anything group. This protest was announced a while back saying various BC hospitals would be the location for the protests so it's not really a surprise to the media.
From August 28th
https://infotel.ca/newsitem/kamloops...ptions/it85417
From their website
https://www.canadianfrontlinenurses.ca/events


Mordko Sep 2nd 2021 1:46 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
In general, it makes sense to fire anti-vaxxers and Covid conspiracists from healthcare and long-term care facilities. Just as it makes sense to fire alchemists pretending to be chemical engineers. Good to see provinces introducing vaccination requirements in LTHFs and hospitals. Better late than never.

scrubbedexpat091 Sep 2nd 2021 10:59 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
Hospitalizations continue to rise, Northern Health seems to getting hit hard now, Prince George hospital ICU has seen their patient admissions climb 400% in 10 days, with a good chunk of the patients coming from B.C.'s Peace River region which is the least vaccinated region in BC.

Mostly unvaccinated people being admitted.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...-b-c-1.6161455

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...pt-2-1.6162507


Siouxie Sep 3rd 2021 3:24 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
Ontario bringing in Vaccine 'extended certificate' (aka Passport ) from September 22nd...

https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/1...elect-settings

scrubbedexpat091 Sep 3rd 2021 7:32 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Siouxie (Post 13047493)
Ontario bringing in Vaccine 'extended certificate' (aka Passport ) from September 22nd...

https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/1...elect-settings

Looks similiar to BC's plan but Ontario seems to have given no grace people for unvaccinated, where BC is doing ours in 2 phases, September 13, 1 dose minimum, then October 24, 2 doses are required.

On also has a medical exemption vs BC with no exemptions for anyone over 12.

And the government is cutting it close, they are not expected to announce the method of getting this "vaccine passport" until next Tuesday, giving people less than a week to get it, those with smart phones wont have the same hurdle, but those who need to call in and obtain the alternative whatever that might be, likely wont be able to get by September 13th as it will almost certainly require being mailed + government processing time.

I venture if these groups can't get BC to carve in some exemptions, there will be a lawsuit filed or a human rights complaint filed.

https://globalnews.ca/news/8163230/v...iscrimination/


CanadaJimmy Sep 3rd 2021 7:51 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
Alberta is now offering people $100 to get vaccinated: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...shaw-1.6163826

Mordko Sep 3rd 2021 7:58 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
Yes, and Alberta is “streamlining printing of conveniently sized Vaccination records”. Kenny made a pig’s ear of it but at least he is smart enough to backtrack.

scrubbedexpat091 Sep 3rd 2021 8:14 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
So where other provinces went with a more punitive policy for the unvaccinated (not letting them do certain things) Alberta is going with the lets reward the stragglers by paying them, so it paid to wait in Alberta, literally.


Jerseygirl Sep 3rd 2021 8:54 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
According to the Mayor of Toronto, many unvaccinated people are now getting the vaccine before the 22nd Sept. Many mobile vax. centres have been set up around the city. After that date they will not be allowed into certain places, restaurants, bars, club, concerts etc etc etc…unless there is a medical exemption.


Jerseygirl Sep 3rd 2021 11:39 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
There are only 2 valid medical reasons for not getting vaccinated in Ontario.

The first would be an allergic reaction to a component of the vaccine within an individual, which must be confirmed by an allergist or immunologist. The second would be if an individual suffered myocarditis or pericarditis after the first dose of a vaccine."

https://www.cp24.com/mobile/news/ont...ines-1.5572954

Siouxie Sep 4th 2021 1:14 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Jerseygirl (Post 13047661)
There are only 2 valid medical reasons for not getting vaccinated in Ontario.

The first would be an allergic reaction to a component of the vaccine within an individual, which must be confirmed by an allergist or immunologist. The second would be if an individual suffered myocarditis or pericarditis after the first dose of a vaccine."

https://www.cp24.com/mobile/news/ont...ines-1.5572954

Unfortunately my neurologist.. vascular surgeon.. cardiologist and GP disagree..

printer Sep 4th 2021 1:26 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Jerseygirl (Post 13047623)
According to the Mayor of Toronto, many unvaccinated people are now getting the vaccine before the 22nd Sept. Many mobile vax. centres have been set up around the city. After that date they will not be allowed into certain places, restaurants, bars, club, concerts etc etc etc…unless there is a medical exemption.

Yes because we don't want those unvaccinated heathens getting near us in a restaurant or bar but hey they are welcome to join us in the grocery store or any medical facility they may have an appointment at. :(
This is clearly about getting as many as possible vaccinated but if we are to tread this thin line on segregation are we on a path towards separate shopping times for vaxxed and unvaxxed? Are we going to see an uprising of the vaccinated complaining about having to shop amongst possible unvaccinated? I think the ones who have just not bothered or are unsure will be swayed by this passport thing but the hardliners won't bother. They can wait it out unless their job is on the line.

Jerseygirl Sep 4th 2021 2:17 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13047669)
Yes because we don't want those unvaccinated heathens getting near us in a restaurant or bar but hey they are welcome to join us in the grocery store or any medical facility they may have an appointment at. :(
This is clearly about getting as many as possible vaccinated but if we are to tread this thin line on segregation are we on a path towards separate shopping times for vaxxed and unvaxxed? Are we going to see an uprising of the vaccinated complaining about having to shop amongst possible unvaccinated? I think the ones who have just not bothered or are unsure will be swayed by this passport thing but the hardliners won't bother. They can wait it out unless their job is on the line.

Hopefully it is pushing quite a few more people to get vaccinated, but like you say, the hardliners won’t bother. Shame on them.

scrubbedexpat091 Sep 4th 2021 3:54 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Jerseygirl (Post 13047673)
Hopefully it is pushing quite a few more people to get vaccinated, but like you say, the hardliners won’t bother. Shame on them.

Nothing will convince the die hard anti-vax folks, but seems the trend with the on the fence people or just the lazy ones is take away their bars, movies, restaurants and they rush out to get the vaccine.

BC saw a significant spike in vaccines when they made the announcement, we are probably running out of on the fence types though, take away the 0-12 not eligible, and BC is nearly 80% fully vaccinated and 88% with one dose, so we are likely reaching a point now where it will be mostly the die hard left, but it will be easier to see roughly what % of the population are these types.

0-12 is about 10% of the BC population.

It's also quite regional, some regions are highly vaccinated and some like up in Northern BC barely 50%, and the outbreak trends reflect this.

It will be interesting if the government cracks down on restaurants whose owners have been very vocal about not following the rules.




BristolUK Sep 4th 2021 1:46 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13047669)
Yes because we don't want those unvaccinated heathens getting near us in a restaurant or bar but hey they are welcome to join us in the grocery store or any medical facility they may have an appointment at. .

What's the issue here?

We know that masks, distancing, hand sanitising etc have a major effect on transmission of the virus. When eating and drinking in a bar or restaurant the mask is removed. Even if seating is distanced you're still in the same fixed place as are other diners, with waiting staff going back and forth between you - spending significant time with you - other customers and their colleagues.

That's hugely different to a brief pass in a supermarket whether masked up or not.

We also know that while the vaccinated may still pick up the virus and may still transmit to someone else, research shows that as well as the vaccine protecting the vaccinated, it makes them infectious for a shorter period, in the event they pick it up, and results in a smaller covid load to transmit..

In this respect there are similarities with the mask wearing in that both actions reduce the likelihood of covid transmission. Having a fixed place in a bar or restaurant with someone going between you and other patrons is clearly more risky and, therefore, more likely to involve restrictions and conditions to reduce the risk, than would be needed in a supermarket.

Jerseygirl Sep 4th 2021 2:45 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
Ontario…944 new cases yesterday, 9 deaths. 😱 Highest number of new cases since end of May.

scrubbedexpat091 Sep 4th 2021 5:55 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Jerseygirl (Post 13047879)
Ontario…944 new cases yesterday, 9 deaths. 😱 Highest number of new cases since end of May.

671 in BC yesterday, hospitalizations keep rising as well.




Jerseygirl Sep 4th 2021 6:10 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Jsmth321 (Post 13047943)
671 in BC yesterday, hospitalizations keep rising as well.


I keep hearing mutterings on TV that it could be 15K sometime in October. Seems a stretch, but what do I know?

Former Lancastrian Sep 4th 2021 9:35 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Jerseygirl (Post 13047950)
I keep hearing mutterings on TV that it could be 15K sometime in October. Seems a stretch, but what do I know?

Not a lot seeing as you admit to being from Yorkshire:p I think I remember mutterings on the TV about 6 years ago when a certain Donald J Trump said he was running as a candidate for the White House. He will never win a seat. Oh hold on he is now running for the Republican leadership. The Republicans aren't dumb enough to have him as their leader. Oh wait he is now running for President. Oh he will never be elected as the President.

Jerseygirl Sep 4th 2021 9:36 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian (Post 13048008)
Not a lot seeing as you admit to being from Yorkshire:p I think I remember mutterings on the TV about 6 years ago when a certain Donald J Trump said he was running as a candidate for the White House. He will never win a seat. Oh hold on he is now running for the Republican leadership. The Republicans aren't dumb enough to have him as their leader. Oh wait he is now running for President. Oh he will never be elected as the President.

Are you sure you are in the correct thread? ;)


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