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-   -   Coronavirus (https://britishexpats.com/forum/maple-leaf-98/coronavirus-930602/)

Mordko Aug 27th 2021 8:34 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
You are in Alberta but you did talk about the US rather than just Alberta. Yes, regions with larger cities and higher population densities tend to be impacted more.

We are talking about vaccination for contagious diseases. For many diseases that have been around for a while we have mandatory vaccination in kids. Thats why there is no need for routine vaccination status checks in adults. You mentioned tuberculosis. It is still mandatory in many countries. And used to be mandatory in others but the risk has been eliminated or reduced so its no longer needed. It was discontinued in Canada in the early 70s.

“Slippery slope” reminds me of Sir Humphrey. I am afraid we have been on this slippery slope for a very long time. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_

BristolUK Aug 27th 2021 8:43 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 13045121)
And the science that are relying upon by way of rebuttal is....

very clearly in the article linked to.

scrubbedexpat091 Aug 27th 2021 9:10 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Former Lancastrian (Post 13045088)
Be interesting to see how these vaccine passports will work between Provinces if travelling. My Province is issuing vaccine cards with a QR code however it is tied to the Provincial website so if I am in Ontario will it work? I have an actual paper certificate which is 8.5 x 11 in size with my personal details and vaccine dates. Do I carry it with me if travelling and show it to whoever? I don't carry a smart phone so I guess I would have to carry it providing other Provinces will accept it.

BC will accept visitors official vaccine record + photo idea, so whatever your provinces official record is should suffice if visiting BC. Foreign visitors need to provide whatever COVID documents they used to enter Canada with.

For BC residents there is the smart phone option, they will release a link and people can download the new vaccine record (they are redoing it as the current one can be faked in about 2 minutes in paint 3D on a PC by anyone) to their phone, those without smart phones will have to call in and presumably wait for it to arrive in the mail.

This only an interim card, as once the feds issue theirs, BC will switch over to the federal vaccine passport.


scrubbedexpat091 Aug 27th 2021 9:25 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Mordko (Post 13045131)
You are in Alberta but you did talk about the US rather than just Alberta. Yes, regions with larger cities and higher population densities tend to be impacted more.

We are talking about vaccination of contagious diseases. For many diseases that have been around for a while we have mandatory vaccination in kids. Thats why there is no need for routine vaccination status checks in adults. You mentioned tuberculosis. It is still mandatory in many countries. And used to be mandatory in others but the risk has been eliminated or reduced so its no longer needed. It was discontinued in Canada in the early 70s.

“Slippery slope” reminds me of Sir Humphrey. I am afraid we have been on this slippery slope for a very long time. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_


In the US mandatory vaccines have a very long line of legal precedent in favor of the government, its certainly nothing new like some make it out to be there, everyone acting like its never been done before.

Heck 5-6 years ago California made measles, rubella and other vaccines mandatory, the courts upheld the mandate then, and for California you can go all the back to 1890 and find legal precedent for mandated vaccines to protect public health.

US supreme court also upheld mandates in 1905 and 1922 in regards to small pox vaccine being mandatory in some states or city's due to small pox outbreaks.

So yep in some countries/states the slope started a very long time ago, and certainly isn't anything new or shocking that governments may make contagious disease vaccines mandatory to prevent pandemics or try end end pandemics.








printer Aug 27th 2021 9:44 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 13045121)
And the science that are relying upon by way of rebuttal is...

Unlike some on here, I am happy to consider other people's perspective and do so without political affiliation. If Trudeau ever has an original thought that makes sense, I will applaud him for it, just as I would if O'Toole or Singh did.

I agree about the mask science thing. If anyone questions whether masks are really the answer we are met with responses like "just think how bad it could be if we didn't wear them" or studies with videos showing how you cannot blow out candles with a mask on. There was even some story a while back about a barber shop with a positive case yet nobody else got it because they were all masked. So yes if we all wear good quality masks 100% of the time they work but we don't and never will. This whole idea of wearing one when entering a restaurant then removing it while seated for hour or so with mix of friends all unmasked is plain daft and will have no bearing on case numbers, similar thing in a large uncrowded mall or half empty Home Depot. But i can see the logic in a crowded plane or bus where there is no space. I look at our local numbers and see no significant drop in cases since masks were reinstated and of course further restrictions were announced shortly after anyway. So impossible to say that masks did the job.

Danny B Aug 27th 2021 10:04 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
TBH - I think that people just 'feel safer' wearing a mask. It doesn't really matter if they don't work that well, it's a placebo to make the sheeple feel safe.

Mordko Aug 27th 2021 10:34 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13045145)
I agree about the mask science thing. If anyone questions whether masks are really the answer we are met with responses like "just think how bad it could be if we didn't wear them" or studies with videos showing how you cannot blow out candles with a mask on. There was even some story a while back about a barber shop with a positive case yet nobody else got it because they were all masked. So yes if we all wear good quality masks 100% of the time they work but we don't and never will. This whole idea of wearing one when entering a restaurant then removing it while seated for hour or so with mix of friends all unmasked is plain daft and will have no bearing on case numbers, similar thing in a large uncrowded mall or half empty Home Depot. But i can see the logic in a crowded plane or bus where there is no space. I look at our local numbers and see no significant drop in cases since masks were reinstated and of course further restrictions were announced shortly after anyway. So impossible to say that masks did the job.

If you are genuinely interested in studies without videos and candles then you could visit Google scholar.

Here is an example of one study which collated data from 35 studies: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7835129/

Findings:

Mathematical models indicated an important decrease in mortality when the population mask coverage is near-universal, regardless of mask efficacy.

Danny B Aug 27th 2021 11:02 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Jsmth321 (Post 13044746)
The concern at the moment is hospitalizations and ICU admissions are increasing not decreasing. Hospitalizations are up 100% from 2 weeks ago, and ICU up 53%.

Upside if your vaccinated you have a lower risk of hospitalization but the fully vaccinated still made up 14.4% of hospitalizations between Aug 9 & Aug 22 most recent data I could find.

You are dead right according to this UK study,

This large national study found a higher hospital admission or emergency care attendance risk for patients with COVID-19 infected with the delta variant compared with the alpha variant. Results suggest that outbreaks of the delta variant in unvaccinated populations might lead to a greater burden on health-care services than the alpha variant.

Lets blame the unvaxxed! just kidding, but it is getting very divisive right now. Kind of reminds me of Trump supporters vs anti-Trumps.

printer Aug 28th 2021 4:35 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Mordko (Post 13045164)
If you are genuinely interested in studies without videos and candles then you could visit Google scholar.

Here is an example of one study which collated data from 35 studies: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7835129/

Findings:

So from the quoted bit you highlighted:
Mathematical models indicated an important decrease in mortality when the population mask coverage is near-universal, regardless of mask efficacy.

What we don't have in BC is a mortality problem as is right now. We have had very very few deaths in last few weeks compared to previous times particularly pre vaccine. We do have lots of cases and todays was an all time high for long period. So people are getting sick and they are getting hospitalized but not dying as before. This is due to the vaccine rather than masks because if masks were decreasing deaths we could have saved a lot of money on vaccines.

scrubbedexpat091 Aug 28th 2021 7:36 am

Re: Coronavirus
 
Good new is 75.8 per cent of BC residents 12 and older are now fully vaccinated.

8,000 something people on Thursday were vaccinated, and bookings for vaccines on Monday were 88% higher than the previous Monday, and Tuesday was 124% high than the week prior.


Between Aug. 11 and 24 82.4% of cases and 86.4% of hospitalizations were people not fully vaccinated.

Cases per 100,000 for Aug 18-24
199.5 not vaccinated
24.6 full vaccinated

The hospitals in the interior sound like a cluster, and staff shortages along with increased patient volume due to COVID is a nightmare of a storm and may lead to even worse staffing shortages because more people may quit.

https://www.citynews1130.com/2021/08...ted-hospitals/








Mordko Aug 28th 2021 10:03 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13045228)
because if masks were decreasing deaths we could have saved a lot of money on vaccines.

This is a logical fallacy. The latter does not follow from the former. “Decrease” does not mean “eliminate”. Nor do we burn with desire for everyone to wear masks at all times in perpetuity, so vaccination is still a requirement.

Current mortality stats are a function of several public health measures and the timing of Delta spreading in Canada and a particular province. Levels and timing of vaccination are a crucial contributor, yes.

The significance of the reference is that there are sound reasons for public health measures such as masks and that these measures are not designed to fool “sheeple” as some are claiming.

printer Aug 29th 2021 3:07 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Mordko (Post 13045270)
This is a logical fallacy. The latter does not follow from the former. “Decrease” does not mean “eliminate”. Nor do we burn with desire for everyone to wear masks at all times in perpetuity, so vaccination is still a requirement.

Current mortality stats are a function of several public health measures and the timing of Delta spreading in Canada and a particular province. Levels and timing of vaccination are a crucial contributor, yes.

The significance of the reference is that there are sound reasons for public health measures such as masks and that these measures are not designed to fool “sheeple” as some are claiming.

My comment about saving money on vaccines was tongue in cheek of course.
You mention "public health measures" but of all the measures that have been applied over the duration it is clear that restricting numbers, social distance and closures are the major contributing factors in reducing cases and therefore deaths. Masks themselves have not had any direct affect on deaths which is what your highlighted comment from the study claims. We are still seeing high numbers and masks alone are not affecting this. Other more stringent restrictions will of course.

Mordko Aug 29th 2021 12:53 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13045463)
My comment about saving money on vaccines was tongue in cheek of course.
You mention "public health measures" but of all the measures that have been applied over the duration it is clear that restricting numbers, social distance and closures are the major contributing factors in reducing cases and therefore deaths. Masks themselves have not had any direct affect on deaths which is what your highlighted comment from the study claims. We are still seeing high numbers and masks alone are not affecting this. Other more stringent restrictions will of course.

Forgive me for going with the position expressed in a peer reviewed paper published by experts in a reputable journal as opposed to someone on social media who says “it is clear” followed by a series of unsupported claims.

Here is a brief summary written by an expert but in simple terms which you may find helpful: https://www.tampabay.com/opinion/202...D19BDwHUGdMnUQ

Siouxie Aug 29th 2021 2:50 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Danny B (Post 13045168)
You are dead right according to this UK study,

This large national study found a higher hospital admission or emergency care attendance risk for patients with COVID-19 infected with the delta variant compared with the alpha variant. Results suggest that outbreaks of the delta variant in unvaccinated populations might lead to a greater burden on health-care services than the alpha variant.

Lets blame the unvaxxed! just kidding, but it is getting very divisive right now. Kind of reminds me of Trump supporters vs anti-Trumps.

I totally agree.. very divisive..

https://britishexpats.com/forum/images/smilies/mad.gif
the have and the have not -- Vaccine, that is. It seems as if there is a large faction that would take anyone who has not been vaccinated outside and put them against a wall to be shot, or in total isolation somewhere, deprived of any medical assistance (no matter what it is for), any social life etc., etc., etc.,

Spare a thought for those of us who for reasons beyond our control (i.e. medical reasons) cannot be vaccinated at this time- not by choice!!

Some are lumping us in with the anti-vaxxers - and wanting us to suffer the same potential fate!

Mordko Aug 29th 2021 4:33 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Siouxie (Post 13045586)
I totally agree.. very divisive..

https://britishexpats.com/forum/images/smilies/mad.gif
the have and the have not -- Vaccine, that is. It seems as if there is a large faction that would take anyone who has not been vaccinated outside and put them against a wall to be shot, or in total isolation somewhere, deprived of any medical assistance (no matter what it is for), any social life etc., etc., etc.,

Spare a thought for those of us who for reasons beyond our control (i.e. medical reasons) cannot be vaccinated at this time- not by choice!!

Some are lumping us in with the anti-vaxxers - and wanting us to suffer the same potential fate!

That’s awful. Can you illustrate this with a real life example of someone actually saying this about people who can’t be vaccinated for medical reasons?

Siouxie Aug 29th 2021 6:13 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Mordko (Post 13045610)
That’s awful. Can you illustrate this with a real life example of someone actually saying this about people who can’t be vaccinated for medical reasons?

Yes. I have several 'friends' who require documentary evidence of my being vaccinated or they won't meet with me (disregarding that I have no wish to meet them with that attitude!)... I have explained countless times the reasons why I am unable to be vaccinated at this time.. to no avail. Covidiots. I have another friend who has similar health issues to me who has been told she can't be vaccinated at this time, friends have been quite unkind to her, shouting at her that she is choosing to put them at risk and she should be ashamed of herself (I heard them say it during a video call) and refusing to allow her to attend any function they will be at, and refusing an invitation during the summer to her house (which is large with a huge garden and easy to 'socially distance' at. The result of this has been to send her in a spiral of depression, feelings of isolation.

Mordko Aug 29th 2021 7:42 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Siouxie (Post 13045646)
Yes. I have several 'friends' who require documentary evidence of my being vaccinated or they won't meet with me (disregarding that I have no wish to meet them with that attitude!)... I have explained countless times the reasons why I am unable to be vaccinated at this time.. to no avail. Covidiots. I have another friend who has similar health issues to me who has been told she can't be vaccinated at this time, friends have been quite unkind to her, shouting at her that she is choosing to put them at risk and she should be ashamed of herself (I heard them say it during a video call) and refusing to allow her to attend any function they will be at, and refusing an invitation during the summer to her house (which is large with a huge garden and easy to 'socially distance' at. The result of this has been to send her in a spiral of depression, feelings of isolation.

In a hypothetical situation of someone not being able to be vaccinated because their immunity is being compromised, it might be reasonable for people who work in an office or use public transport to avoid social contact with them for their sake.

Under all scenarios this seems a tad different from “putting against the wall to be shot”. Surely one can decide who they want to meet and why without being called an idiot? But I take your point about emotions running high and some of the language starting to resemble that of Trump supporters.

Siouxie Aug 29th 2021 8:21 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Mordko (Post 13045684)
In a hypothetical situation of someone not being able to be vaccinated because their immunity is being compromised, it might be reasonable for people who work in an office or use public transport to avoid social contact with them for their sake.

Under all scenarios this seems a tad different from “putting against the wall to be shot”. Surely one can decide who they want to meet and why without being called an idiot? But I take your point about emotions running high and some of the language starting to resemble that of Trump supporters.

Do you walk in my shoes? NO.

It's NOT hyperthetical, I can assure you.. I'm not talking about an office or public transit. I'm talking about people who have been friends for YEARS deciding that anyone not vaccinated is a pariah and must be shunned.. my friend was devastated to be screamed at in this way. These people require everyone to show their vaccine certificate to even be at the same place (not even going there to meet them specifically) - socially distanced and masked or not!

Do you have any clue how this feels? I have literally been told that I should be ashamed of myself.. that it's "people like you who make people like us sick - you don't deserve to be here".

Isolation does our heads in!

Mordko Aug 29th 2021 11:38 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Siouxie (Post 13045699)
Do you walk in my shoes? NO.

It's NOT hyperthetical, I can assure you.. I'm not talking about an office or public transit. I'm talking about people who have been friends for YEARS deciding that anyone not vaccinated is a pariah and must be shunned.. my friend was devastated to be screamed at in this way. These people require everyone to show their vaccine certificate to even be at the same place (not even going there to meet them specifically) - socially distanced and masked or not!

Do you have any clue how this feels? I have literally been told that I should be ashamed of myself.. that it's "people like you who make people like us sick - you don't deserve to be here".

Isolation does our heads in!

I don’t walk in your shoes and don’t know your situation - or that of your friends’ friends.

My friend’s dad is dying from Covid. He is vaccinated but old so vaccines don’t work as well. Got it from my friend’s cousin who is an anti-vaxxer. My friend is furious with his cousin. Justifiably so.

People who have elderly parents (as an example) may well be very cautious. Certainly does not justify screaming or calling people idiots.

We’ll get through this. vaccination rates are going up and vaccine passports (when we eventually have them) will push the rates even higher. Will likely need booster shots but normality is coming in the not too distant future.

printer Aug 30th 2021 12:16 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Mordko (Post 13045558)
Forgive me for going with the position expressed in a peer reviewed paper published by experts in a reputable journal as opposed to someone on social media who says “it is clear” followed by a series of unsupported claims.

Here is a brief summary written by an expert but in simple terms which you may find helpful: https://www.tampabay.com/opinion/202...D19BDwHUGdMnUQ

Well who would have thought it a brief summary that is very long and what is it telling me? Masks work (in some situations) Masks don't let you expel all that nasty viral stuff. Well that's not really news here and not what i was referring to. We have mask mandates all over yet those mandates alone do little to curb the spread and almost always end up having other restrictions added to bring down numbers. I am talking here about real world situations not ideal situations. In an ideal world we would all wear good quality approved masks correctly all the time and there would be no spread but this isn't the case. We have bandanas, bits of cloth, masks below nose, masks with zero filters and even people with their shirt pulled up and then we have all the areas we don't wear them as in restaurants, pubs, coffee shops while seated in groups.
I look at real world situations like Scotland for example who relaxed lots of restrictions a couple weeks after England but they decided to keep the masks because they wanted to be careful and open up slowly and masks were helping. Fast forward to today and Scotland is seeing large increases in cases and considering what they call "circuit breaker" lockdowns to curb the spread, even their big chief Nicola Sturgeon is currently isolating due to contact with a positive case. So please tell me how keeping the masks helped them?

Siouxie Aug 30th 2021 3:02 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Mordko (Post 13045745)
I don’t walk in your shoes and don’t know your situation - or that of your friends’ friends.

My friend’s dad is dying from Covid. He is vaccinated but old so vaccines don’t work as well. Got it from my friend’s cousin who is an anti-vaxxer. My friend is furious with his cousin. Justifiably so.

People who have elderly parents (as an example) may well be very cautious. Certainly does not justify screaming or calling people idiots.

We’ll get through this. vaccination rates are going up and vaccine passports (when we eventually have them) will push the rates even higher. Will likely need booster shots but normality is coming in the not too distant future.

I'm sorry to learn of your friend's father, a horrible situation... and I can understand how furious he must feel - I hope he recovers, despite the prognosis. :fingerscrossed:

Sadly it shows that even being vaccinated doesn't preclude anyone from catching it - nor passing it on.

I'm no spring chicken - I'm the eldest of my friends.. over retirement age - as is my friend. I am more than cautious, as has already been explained - unlike my former friends who have been vaccinated.

Vaccine passports will be of absolutely no use to me or my friend, as we may be unable to be vaccinated according to our medical specialists. We will still find ourselves shunned by those who are small minded and don't understand that we are more at risk from them than they are from us.. If they bring in vaccine passports it will likely mean that neither of us will be able to go anywhere at all.. because we won't have one.



.

Almost Canadian Aug 30th 2021 4:02 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
It is my understanding that having both doses of vaccine does not prevent one from getting covid, nor does it prevent one from spreading covid. I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong and I appreciate that it may reduce the chance of getting covid in the first place and it may reduce the likelihood of a vaccinated person passing it on.

If I am not wrong, what are the vaccine passport supposed to demonstrate, other than "I have the vaccine"? Why should those with such a passport be permitted to do things that others aren't?

Danny B Aug 30th 2021 5:27 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 13045977)
It is my understanding that having both doses of vaccine does not prevent one from getting covid, nor does it prevent one from spreading covid. I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong and I appreciate that it may reduce the chance of getting covid in the first place and it may reduce the likelihood of a vaccinated person passing it on.

If I am not wrong, what are the vaccine passport supposed to demonstrate, other than "I have the vaccine"? Why should those with such a passport be permitted to do things that others aren't?

Results suggest that outbreaks of the delta variant in unvaccinated populations might lead to a greater burden on health-care services than the alpha variant. I guess the governments are trying their hardest to prevent hospital admissions by preventing the unvaccinated from going to places where it seems to spread the most, i.e.- indoor gatherings etc.

Harsh but fair in my opinion.


Siouxie Aug 30th 2021 6:10 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 13045977)
It is my understanding that having both doses of vaccine does not prevent one from getting covid, nor does it prevent one from spreading covid. I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong and I appreciate that it may reduce the chance of getting covid in the first place and it may reduce the likelihood of a vaccinated person passing it on.

If I am not wrong, what are the vaccine passport supposed to demonstrate, other than "I have the vaccine"? Why should those with such a passport be permitted to do things that others aren't?

:goodpost:You are correct... you are not wrong!

Siouxie Aug 30th 2021 6:12 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Danny B (Post 13046011)
Results suggest that outbreaks of the delta variant in unvaccinated populations might lead to a greater burden on health-care services than the alpha variant. I guess the governments are trying their hardest to prevent hospital admissions by preventing the unvaccinated from going to places where it seems to spread the most, i.e.- indoor gatherings etc.

Harsh but fair in my opinion
.

:thumbdown:
But in doing so you also preclude people like myself and others who are unable to be vaccinated at this time.,



Mordko Aug 30th 2021 6:20 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 13045977)
It is my understanding that having both doses of vaccine does not prevent one from getting covid, nor does it prevent one from spreading covid. I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong and I appreciate that it may reduce the chance of getting covid in the first place and it may reduce the likelihood of a vaccinated person passing it on.

If I am not wrong, what are the vaccine passport supposed to demonstrate, other than "I have the vaccine"? Why should those with such a passport be permitted to do things that others aren't?

No vaccine is 100% efficient. The effectiveness is represented in terms of probabilities. The effectiveness of various Covid vaccines in reducing the potential of a vaccinated person to spread the virus is substantial.

That's in addition to the fact that vaccinated people are far less likely to burden the healthcare system during an epidemic - and ultimately slow down the reopening or even force shut-downs and hence cause further loss of lives and wide-spread economic damage .

Vaccine passports are designed to incentivize vaccination which is the way of minimizing impact on public health and wide-spread economic damage. And they work. We have experience from other countries where lots of previously unvaccinated people rushed to get vaccinated after introductions of vaccine passports.

Of course in the context of a business office, vaccination among employees also reduces the risk to a company. It's a real issue - when planning projects at the height of epidemic, businesses had to plan for lots of employees getting sick from an outbreak.

Similarly for schools, public events, etc.

Mordko Aug 30th 2021 6:25 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13045749)
Well who would have thought it a brief summary that is very long and what is it telling me? Masks work (in some situations) Masks don't let you expel all that nasty viral stuff. Well that's not really news here and not what i was referring to. We have mask mandates all over yet those mandates alone do little to curb the spread and almost always end up having other restrictions added to bring down numbers. I am talking here about real world situations not ideal situations. In an ideal world we would all wear good quality approved masks correctly all the time and there would be no spread but this isn't the case. We have bandanas, bits of cloth, masks below nose, masks with zero filters and even people with their shirt pulled up and then we have all the areas we don't wear them as in restaurants, pubs, coffee shops while seated in groups.
I look at real world situations like Scotland for example who relaxed lots of restrictions a couple weeks after England but they decided to keep the masks because they wanted to be careful and open up slowly and masks were helping. Fast forward to today and Scotland is seeing large increases in cases and considering what they call "circuit breaker" lockdowns to curb the spread, even their big chief Nicola Sturgeon is currently isolating due to contact with a positive case. So please tell me how keeping the masks helped them?

You were already provided with a quote from a peer reviewed journal from an article written by experts who rigorously reviewed multiple cases. And that quote told you that masks, regardless of quality, work in real world situations. You have a different opinion. And you seem to be very certain. Perhaps you should submit your opinion and the basis for it to a reputable journal. Let us know once its published.

Danny B Aug 30th 2021 6:27 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Siouxie (Post 13046029)
:thumbdown:
But in doing so you also preclude people like myself and others who are unable to be vaccinated at this time.,

For the folks who cannot be vaccinated due to medical reasons, I 100% agree with you, it sucks. I'm not sure on numbers, but I bet you that there are more anti-vaxxers than there are people in your situation.
For example, If I was a double vaxxed person who was booked in for surgery at the hospital and it was cancelled because my bed was now taken up by an unvaxxed Karen who believed the vaccine contained a micro chip, I'd be bloody furious.




Mordko Aug 30th 2021 6:34 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Siouxie (Post 13045768)

Sadly it shows that even being vaccinated doesn't preclude anyone from catching it - nor passing it on.



.

That's not what it shows. We already know that older populations do not develop protection as a result of vaccination like the younger people do. What it shows is that my friends cousin ended up killing his father by being fearful of vaccination and a conspiracist.

Mordko Aug 30th 2021 6:40 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
With regards to people who can't get vaccinated, here is how it works in Quebec:


What about people who can't get vaccinated for medical reasons?


Dr. Horacio Arruda, Quebec's director of public health, said it is extremely rare that somebody can't get vaccinated for medical reasons, especially given the type of vaccines being offered. In that rare case, their doctors can fill out a document and the person will be issued a QR code to access non-essential services.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montr...pply-1.6151912

In other words, its a non-issue.

caretaker Aug 30th 2021 6:43 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Mordko (Post 13046042)
In other words, its a non-issue.

Will be a non-issue for Siouxie if Ontario adopts the same program.



Almost Canadian Aug 30th 2021 7:02 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Mordko (Post 13046042)
With regards to people who can't get vaccinated, here is how it works in Quebec:


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montr...pply-1.6151912

In other words, its a non-issue.




So, if their inability to be to be able to have to the vaccine is a genuine one (medical issue) are they to be denied the service, or should an exemption be made? If it is safe for one unvaccinated person to be able to access the service, how can it not be for others? What about those under 12?


I appreciate that you wish to use it as a stick but, unless you are advocating for mandatory vaccines (which I certainly wouldn't agree with), I can't see how this will work.

Edit: Just read the link and it doesn't appear to be preventing access to essential services.

Mordko Aug 30th 2021 7:17 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 13046051)
So, if their inability to be to be able to have to the vaccine is a genuine one (medical issue) are they to be denied the service, or should an exemption be made? If it is safe for one unvaccinated person to be able to access the service, how can it not be for others? What about those under 12?
I appreciate that you wish to use it as a stick but, unless you are advocating for mandatory vaccines (which I certainly wouldn't agree with), I can't see how this will work.

Edit: Just read the link and it doesn't appear to be preventing access to essential services.

Restricting access to essential services was suggested by nobody ever in the real world (social media excluded). Those who can't be vaccinated still get access to non-essential services, same as vaccinated people. Everyone gets access to essential services. It's designed to help the fearful and the lazy who can be vaccinated to get over the hump and bring the vaccination rate up - hopefully to a level where the risk is sufficiently minimized, we can reopen and shut-downs are no longer required.

Mordko Aug 30th 2021 7:40 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
This article provides a helpful summary on medical conditions preventing vaccination https://www.forbes.com/sites/victori...h=1eb206a944c5

scrubbedexpat091 Aug 30th 2021 9:22 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
Maybe a non-issue in Quebec, however in BC where our version goes into effect on Sept 13, doesn't give that option, the only exemption currently are for those 12 and under, lawyers have already said it likely will lead to a court challenge, but so far the top health official Dr. Henry doesn't plan to have exemptions.

The rules don't affect me as I am vaccinated, but kind of sucks for those like Siouxie who can't for medical reasons being further excluded from society through no fault of their own.

For BC the list of places where proof of vaccination will be required are:
  • indoor ticketed sporting events
  • indoor concerts
  • indoor theatre/dance/symphony events
  • restaurants (indoor and patio dining)
  • night clubs
  • casinos
  • movie theatres
  • fitness centres/gyms (excluding youth recreational sport)
  • businesses offering indoor high-intensity group exercise activities
  • organized indoor events (eg. weddings, parties, conferences, meetings, workshops)
  • discretionary organized indoor group recreational classes and activities





Originally Posted by Mordko (Post 13046042)
With regards to people who can't get vaccinated, here is how it works in Quebec:


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montr...pply-1.6151912

In other words, its a non-issue.




Mordko Aug 30th 2021 9:41 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Jsmth321 (Post 13046115)
Maybe a non-issue in Quebec, however in BC where our version goes into effect on Sept 13, doesn't give that option, the only exemption currently are for those 12 and under, lawyers have already said it likely will lead to a court challenge, but so far the top health official Dr. Henry doesn't plan to have exemptions.




Will follow the court challenge with interest. Assuming the Forbes article is correct, Dr Henry will win the case easily.

Besides, the passport system gives incentives and encourages. Its the carrot rather than the stick. Without mass vaccination in Canada, nobody would be able to go to any public events except the absolutely essential ones. The fact most Canadians over 12 have acted reasonably is why things are improving so the rewards are due to them. Those that chose the other option are not losing out; they are also benefiting from risk reduction when they go shopping but a concert or travel is something that wouldn’t even happen had everyone followed their example.

And I do so wish we had someone with a backbone in Ottawa and a little more focused on the country and less on winning his majority. We would have had a single system across the country rather than this hotchpotch.


Danny B Aug 30th 2021 10:30 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Mordko (Post 13046066)
This article provides a helpful summary on medical conditions preventing vaccination https://www.forbes.com/sites/victori...h=1eb206a944c5

What a terrible format that article is in.

Is this the TLDR ?
There are no known medical conditions which absolutely prevent a person from getting a Covid-19 vaccine.

Mordko Aug 30th 2021 10:46 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Danny B (Post 13046156)

Is this the TLDR ?
There are no known medical conditions which absolutely prevent a person from getting a Covid-19 vaccine.

Kinda. Does say that oncologists might recommend delays during certain treatments and discusses a few other potential issues like phobias but you summed it up quite well.

scrubbedexpat091 Aug 30th 2021 10:52 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
Vaccine by age group in BC. 80+ is the best at 93%.

18-29 is the worst 63.5%, I excluded the 0-17 group as the 0-11 age range isn't even allowed to get the vaccine, so I feel its unfair to include that group since only partial group within are allowed the vaccine.

I belong to the group of vaccinated fully in Canada, but I crossed into the US, I am no longer fully vaccinated, and probably other countries that wont recognize my vaccination status due to mix matching that was done.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...b80480cd2f.png



printer Aug 30th 2021 11:53 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Mordko (Post 13046033)
You were already provided with a quote from a peer reviewed journal from an article written by experts who rigorously reviewed multiple cases. And that quote told you that masks, regardless of quality, work in real world situations. You have a different opinion. And you seem to be very certain. Perhaps you should submit your opinion and the basis for it to a reputable journal. Let us know once its published.

Again you are missing the point here. Throw as many studies around as you like but please tell me why for example Scotland is concerned with ever rising case loads yet they did NOT remove the mask mandate when they relaxed restrictions. They should be a model case for masks whereby they opened up but kept masks unlike others so their case rates are looking good and they can categorically state that masks worked as intended!
Put a 100 people in a small room with masks and the same in another room unmasked and yes masks will make a difference. Masks work, particularly in crowded spaces, mask mandates as they are don't work in the way that some people think they do because if they did we wouldn't see so many cases as we are seeing.


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