British Expats

British Expats (https://britishexpats.com/forum/)
-   The Maple Leaf (https://britishexpats.com/forum/maple-leaf-98/)
-   -   Coronavirus (https://britishexpats.com/forum/maple-leaf-98/coronavirus-930602/)

Danny B Aug 24th 2021 2:34 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
it's not all bad. Anti-vaxxers can still go to their science-denying places of worship without a vaccine card :banghead:

Teaandtoday5 Aug 24th 2021 4:28 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Danny B (Post 13043958)
it's not all bad. Anti-vaxxers can still go to their science-denying places of worship without a vaccine card :banghead:

This is the bit that makes think the leaders (church or political) must really believe what they spout - otherwise they’re willingly killing off their cash cows/voters just to be contrarian. Not saying they’re right, but it hadn’t previously occurred to me that they might be genuine.

Danny B Aug 24th 2021 5:33 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
1 step forward, and 2 steps back.....when will this end? Summer 2022 at this bloody rate.

B.C. reinstates province-wide mask mandate for indoor public spaces

scrubbedexpat091 Aug 24th 2021 5:37 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Danny B (Post 13044014)
1 step forward, and 2 steps back.....when will this end? Summer 2022 at this bloody rate.

B.C. reinstates province-wide mask mandate for indoor public spaces

Maybe never at this rate, this virus seems to be a tricky little bugger that keeps evolving to out run our science.


Danny B Aug 24th 2021 6:07 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Jsmth321 (Post 13044016)
Maybe never at this rate, this virus seems to be a tricky little bugger that keeps evolving to out run our science.

Sometimes I prefer not to look at world news regarding COVID, but you should check out new cases and deaths in Israel :eek: they are really struggling right now. The Pfizer Covid-19 vaccine is just 39% effective there, where the Delta variant is the dominant strain but still provides strong protection against severe illness and hospitalization.

scrubbedexpat091 Aug 24th 2021 6:58 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Danny B (Post 13044030)
Sometimes I prefer not to look at world news regarding COVID, but you should check out new cases and deaths in Israel :eek: they are really struggling right now. The Pfizer Covid-19 vaccine is just 39% effective there, where the Delta variant is the dominant strain but still provides strong protection against severe illness and hospitalization.

As long as it prevents severe illness and deaths, really all that matters at the end of the day.

My hope is hospitalizations and deaths will drop to low enough levels where they stop testing widescale, no need to continue testing if hospitalizations and deaths get low enough, but we are not going to there unless certain regions really up their vaccination rates.





Almost Canadian Aug 24th 2021 7:04 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Jsmth321 (Post 13044046)
As long as it prevents severe illness and deaths, really all that matters at the end of the day.

My hope is hospitalizations and deaths will drop to low enough levels where they stop testing widescale, no need to continue testing if hospitalizations and deaths get low enough, but we are not going to there unless certain regions really up their vaccination rates.

Don't say that too loudly. When that was proposed by the medical experts in Alberta, the rest of the country went nuts!

Mordko Aug 24th 2021 8:49 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Danny B (Post 13044030)
Sometimes I prefer not to look at world news regarding COVID, but you should check out new cases and deaths in Israel :eek: they are really struggling right now. The Pfizer Covid-19 vaccine is just 39% effective there, where the Delta variant is the dominant strain but still provides strong protection against severe illness and hospitalization.

They are giving booster shots to the over 60s in Israel and it seems to have been very effective. Moving on to 30 year olds next.

Meanwhile in the US the numbers are large but the tide seems to be turning without further lockdowns and with the economic activity on track to getting back to pre-pandemic levels.

scrubbedexpat091 Aug 25th 2021 5:50 am

Re: Coronavirus
 
Make sure you triple check, then double check, and maybe get 2 or 3 other tests just to make sure you have the correct one, because even if you think you do, were told by US testing places you did, the airline employees thought you did, you may find out on arrival that its not the correct one and get a 5,700 fine handed down to you.


https://bc.ctvnews.ca/canadian-trave...-u-s-1.5560090




scrubbedexpat091 Aug 25th 2021 6:15 am

Re: Coronavirus
 
516 people in Revelstoke need to go back in for their vaccines, they were giving invalid doses that had been improperly stored.

15 first doses and 501 2nd doses. No health risk apparently from the invalid vaccine.

https://globalnews.ca/news/8137230/i...invalid-doses/

Also seems patients are not now called clients?

printer Aug 26th 2021 1:10 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Danny B (Post 13044030)
Sometimes I prefer not to look at world news regarding COVID, but you should check out new cases and deaths in Israel :eek: they are really struggling right now. The Pfizer Covid-19 vaccine is just 39% effective there, where the Delta variant is the dominant strain but still provides strong protection against severe illness and hospitalization.

Yeah i often check UK news to see how they are fairing and it seems right now not too bad all things considered. I am sure that will possibly change down the line but it's more the frustration of just not knowing what is next and where we are going with all this. We would all benefit from a concrete game plan that sets out exact criteria for the future so at least we are all working towards the same goal. For example what vaccine rate are we looking for and once achieved what is next step? After 2 week lull remove x,y,z restrictions. Or once we have "x" number of hospitalizations or lower we can remove x and y but keep z for another 4 weeks. We did have a plan but that's gone belly up and apparently its all the unvaccinated fault. I am not sure when they came up with the stepped reopening plan whether vaccination rates were part of it but we keep hearing they need to improve yet improve to what? I am just so frustrated with all this now it's becoming a form filling nightmare just to get my teeth cleaned at the dentist, i've never filled out so much and had so many reminders for a 45 minute cleaning. :(

scilly Aug 26th 2021 2:21 am

Re: Coronavirus
 
The problem is that we have had those guidelines laid out for us.

Stage 3 would be July 1

Stage 4, almost all restrictions removed, would be September 4, provided that x% over 12 had had 1 vaccine and x% over 12 had had 2 doses. We were getting VERY close to that, in fact It hink that overall in BC we had achieved both %ages of vaccinations.

So what happens?

Covid throws a curve ball at us in the form of a different variant, the Delta strain, which is more infectious, and this finds all those unvaccinated people who either refuse to be vaccinated or haven't got round to it for some reason.

Positive cases increase, hospitalisations increase, ICU cases increase .................. and a low percentage of those double or single vaccinated catch covid.

So, we get restrictions put back on in an attempt to curb the spread, and it looks as though Stage 4 will not be reached.

If you look back, something like that has happened every time we seem to heading out of the crisis.

BristolUK Aug 26th 2021 12:24 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by scilly (Post 13044504)
...Stage 4, almost all restrictions removed, would be September 4, provided that x% over 12 had had 1 vaccine and x% over 12 had had 2 doses. We were getting VERY close to that, in fact It hink that overall in BC we had achieved both %ages of vaccinations.

So what happens?

Covid throws a curve ball at us in the form of a different variant, the Delta strain, which is more infectious, and this finds all those unvaccinated people who either refuse to be vaccinated or haven't got round to it for some reason.

Positive cases increase, hospitalisations increase, ICU cases increase .................. and a low percentage of those double or single vaccinated catch covid.

So, we get restrictions put back on in an attempt to curb the spread, and it looks as though Stage 4 will not be reached....

It went a little differently here.
We had colours and Stage 4 was Green. Similar target for vaccinations and Green from end July.
Initially it seemed 2nd jab target would be reached early but then it all slowed right down - possibly because Moderna only was being offered and a lot of those who'd had Pfizer as first jab didn't want to mix.

Government decided to go green even though target not met.

Immediately case numbers went up - but clearly there hadn't been enough time for that to have 'properly' happened and it seemed that people had actually changed their behaviours in advance of the official green day.

Since then we've been getting increases like those seen after Christmas and recently we had the highest new cases for a day since vaccinatios were just getting underway. We have a few hospitalisations too. Not many overall but when you're used to snapshots of zero or one for 2 or 3 months, half a dozen suddenly seems dramatic.

The strange thing is the majority of NB's cases are Alpha, not Delta. So what happens when people travel around a bit more and Delta becomes dominant?

scilly Aug 26th 2021 4:43 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
Bristol ......... daughter told me yesterday that the border between NB and NS was closed again. Is that true??

scrubbedexpat091 Aug 26th 2021 5:30 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
It was not wise of the government to begin opening as quickly as they did in the early part of the summer, even when the first stage happened, delta variant issues were already sufficiently known to realize what is happening now was going to happen, especially in regions with low vaccination rates, there are parts of BC under 50%, the lower mainland is pushing up the provincial overall average, but once you begin to see by region, well no surprise why certain regions are getting hit bad over others.

No idea what it will take to encourage people to get vaccinated at this point.

When they dropped the mask mandate, there were already reports and studies from the US and elsewhere indicating delta variant spread easier, so why they dropped the mask mandate is anyone's guess but it doesn't seem to been based on science as at the time BC was dropping mask mandates, the US CDC was changing theirs to recommend even vaccinated people continue to wear masks indoors.

Seems to be a trend along with the variants of governments opening things too quickly, and we end up right back where we started, at this rate its never going away, all we can do is get as many vaccinated as possible, and hope the vaccines work long term to prevent deaths.

Just hope this year is another low influenza season, last thing we need is a bad flu season on top of COVID. Reminds me non of the pharmacies I was on the wait list for last winter for flu shot ever called....

Originally Posted by scilly (Post 13044504)
The problem is that we have had those guidelines laid out for us.

Stage 3 would be July 1

Stage 4, almost all restrictions removed, would be September 4, provided that x% over 12 had had 1 vaccine and x% over 12 had had 2 doses. We were getting VERY close to that, in fact It hink that overall in BC we had achieved both %ages of vaccinations.

So what happens?

Covid throws a curve ball at us in the form of a different variant, the Delta strain, which is more infectious, and this finds all those unvaccinated people who either refuse to be vaccinated or haven't got round to it for some reason.

Positive cases increase, hospitalisations increase, ICU cases increase .................. and a low percentage of those double or single vaccinated catch covid.

So, we get restrictions put back on in an attempt to curb the spread, and it looks as though Stage 4 will not be reached.

If you look back, something like that has happened every time we seem to heading out of the crisis.


Danny B Aug 26th 2021 5:37 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
The only daily COVID numbers people should care about these days as far as I'm concerned is:

1. How many people are in hospital?
2. How many ICU beds are taken / available?
3. How many people died?

I don't particularly care that 650 people in BC are at home with a runny nose or whatever mild symptoms they have. As long as the numbers for questions 1-3 are going down, the new infections shouldn't worry people. It proves that the vaccine is doing its job.


Almost Canadian Aug 26th 2021 7:41 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Danny B (Post 13044702)
The only daily COVID numbers people should care about these days as far as I'm concerned is:

1. How many people are in hospital?
2. How many ICU beds are taken / available?
3. How many people died?

I don't particularly care that 650 people in BC are at home with a runny nose or whatever mild symptoms they have. As long as the numbers for questions 1-3 are going down, the new infections shouldn't worry people. It proves that the vaccine is doing its job.

I agree. I also think that people should be responsible for their own actions and should not have to be told what to do by government. If you are happy going to a movie theatre and not wearing a mask; you should be able to. If you wish to go to a movie theatre and wear a mask; you should be able to. If you believe that if you come within 10 feet of someone that may not be vaccinated and your head will explode, don't come within 10 feet of such people. If you are vulnerable and exposing yourself to a risk may kill you; ensure that you keep yourself safe.

I have no idea why lots of people believe that it is government's job to tell them what to do, or how to behave. Why do adults want to be treated like children?

scrubbedexpat091 Aug 26th 2021 8:36 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Danny B (Post 13044702)
The only daily COVID numbers people should care about these days as far as I'm concerned is:

1. How many people are in hospital?
2. How many ICU beds are taken / available?
3. How many people died?

I don't particularly care that 650 people in BC are at home with a runny nose or whatever mild symptoms they have. As long as the numbers for questions 1-3 are going down, the new infections shouldn't worry people. It proves that the vaccine is doing its job.

The concern at the moment is hospitalizations and ICU admissions are increasing not decreasing. Hospitalizations are up 100% from 2 weeks ago, and ICU up 53%.

Upside if your vaccinated you have a lower risk of hospitalization but the fully vaccinated still made up 14.4% of hospitalizations between Aug 9 & Aug 22 most recent data I could find.

Sure the total numbers look small, but they are already high enough for some hospitals to be over capacity leading to surgeries being cancelled, Interior Health has already cancelled 612 this month, oh and there is pretty serious nursing shortage at some hospitals with nurses quitting, Kamloops ER has apparently lost 25%-30% of their ER nurses due to burnout and nurses leaving the field.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...g-24-1.6151240

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...g-24-1.6151240

The most recent 7 day rolling average for deaths is 2.86 well below the 19 at the peak in December, so deaths wise we are doing pretty good, vaccines were never going to bring deaths to 0, but deaths are still low but slowly climbing as well.













BristolUK Aug 26th 2021 9:49 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by scilly (Post 13044681)
Bristol ......... daughter told me yesterday that the border between NB and NS was closed again. Is that true??

Sorry, just saw this.

Not 'closed' as such but previous restrictions reintroduced. She's probably just using the word that was commonly used to describe the border controls set up way back when everyone talked about closed borders but "good reasons" for entry and isolating rules applied apart from a few exemptions like workers crossing.

Checkpoints, line-ups, delays etc...completion of documents on line, proof of double vax required and so on.
7 day Isolation if a single jab,, 14 days if no jab.
CTV describes it as the same rules applying as for those from outside Atlantic Canada.
https://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/highway-...ents-1.5561292

BristolUK Aug 26th 2021 10:06 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Danny B (Post 13044702)
The only daily COVID numbers people should care about these days as far as I'm concerned is:

1. How many people are in hospital?
2. How many ICU beds are taken / available?
3. How many people died?

I don't particularly care that 650 people in BC are at home with a runny nose or whatever mild symptoms they have. As long as the numbers for questions 1-3 are going down, the new infections shouldn't worry people. It proves that the vaccine is doing its job.

The vaccine is certainly doing its job but we've always known that variants of the original virus were possible. We know this to be true with one variant that spreads more quickly but isn't more dangerous while another variant doesn't spread so quickly but is more, let's say, problematic.

What happens if the next one is a bit of both? It seems foolhardy to not worry about a virus spreading when there's a strong possibility of further mutation.

The least we can do is continue to wear masks - as uncomfortable as it is - where appropriate - indoors with other people, outdoors in crowded areas. Carry on with everything else by all means.


Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 13044729)
I agree. I also think that people should be responsible for their own actions and should not have to be told what to do by government. If you are happy going to a movie theatre and not wearing a mask; you should be able to. If you wish to go to a movie theatre and wear a mask; you should be able to. If you believe that if you come within 10 feet of someone that may not be vaccinated and your head will explode, don't come within 10 feet of such people. If you are vulnerable and exposing yourself to a risk may kill you; ensure that you keep yourself safe.

I have no idea why lots of people believe that it is government's job to tell them what to do, or how to behave. Why do adults want to be treated like children?

Yes, this is all what you were saying before 4.5 million people died isn't it.

Just prior to your prolonged absence you said

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 12868501)
I'll wager that there will be no significant second wave.

Perhaps it's the government's job because they are quite well placed to study the evidence and opinions of people who know what they are talking about.

scrubbedexpat091 Aug 26th 2021 11:03 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
Beaverton ever misses a beat *satire of course.*


scrubbedexpat091 Aug 26th 2021 11:05 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
Plus masks are only effective when a large % of people are wearing them, and that is something we have learned most seem unwilling to do, so even if I am wearing a mask, if 75% of the customers in the store are not, my mask really isn't doing much, the mask is to prevent spread but it requires cooperation for a large part of society, but seems we live in a fairly selfish, individualistic society, which isn't going to ever benefit our species, we cannot as a species survive without working together, if our early ancestors decided to be individuals rather than work collectively as a group, we would never have achieved what we have as a species.

This too, Monday BC announces restrictions coming for the unvaccinated, Tuesday see's 8,000 people get their first dose, more than double the daily average the last few weeks, and highest daily number of first doses since middle of July.

I doubt its a mere coincidence and the government announcement played a role, some people simply will not do anything unless forced.






Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13044788)
The vaccine is certainly doing its job but we've always known that variants of the original virus were possible. We know this to be true with one variant that spreads more quickly but isn't more dangerous while another variant doesn't spread so quickly but is more, let's say, problematic.

What happens if the next one is a bit of both? It seems foolhardy to not worry about a virus spreading when there's a strong possibility of further mutation.

The least we can do is continue to wear masks - as uncomfortable as it is - where appropriate - indoors with other people, outdoors in crowded areas. Carry on with everything else by all means.


Yes, this is all what you were saying before 4.5 million people died isn't it.

Just prior to your prolonged absence you said

Perhaps it's the government's job because they are quite well placed to study the evidence and opinions of people who know what they are talking about.


Teaandtoday5 Aug 27th 2021 1:23 am

Re: Coronavirus
 
Canada being put on UK green list

printer Aug 27th 2021 1:28 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Jsmth321 (Post 13044799)
Plus masks are only effective when a large % of people are wearing them, and that is something we have learned most seem unwilling to do, so even if I am wearing a mask, if 75% of the customers in the store are not, my mask really isn't doing much, the mask is to prevent spread but it requires cooperation for a large part of society, but seems we live in a fairly selfish, individualistic society, which isn't going to ever benefit our species, we cannot as a species survive without working together, if our early ancestors decided to be individuals rather than work collectively as a group, we would never have achieved what we have as a species.

This too, Monday BC announces restrictions coming for the unvaccinated, Tuesday see's 8,000 people get their first dose, more than double the daily average the last few weeks, and highest daily number of first doses since middle of July.

I doubt its a mere coincidence and the government announcement played a role, some people simply will not do anything unless forced.

Where are you going where people aren't wearing them? It's a mandate now for whole BC and had been for our area quite a while. I don't see people without where i have been BUT i have noticed not all places have the sign on door.
But here's the truth, more people will get vaccinated because of the proposed restrictions NOT because they care about others. People will wear masks because it's mandated NOT because they care about others.
There is also now some kickback from various restaurants and a brewery about this whole vaccine passport thing and apparently there are many many businesses of same mind according to article in local media and I quote:A Facebook group called "BC Businesses against Health Pass" has attracted more than 60,000 members.

The group shares a list of businesses that claim a vaccine passport in B.C. is unconstitutional.


scrubbedexpat091 Aug 27th 2021 2:21 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13044826)
Where are you going where people aren't wearing them? It's a mandate now for whole BC and had been for our area quite a while. I don't see people without where i have been BUT i have noticed not all places have the sign on door.
But here's the truth, more people will get vaccinated because of the proposed restrictions NOT because they care about others. People will wear masks because it's mandated NOT because they care about others.
There is also now some kickback from various restaurants and a brewery about this whole vaccine passport thing and apparently there are many many businesses of same mind according to article in local media and I quote:A Facebook group called "BC Businesses against Health Pass" has attracted more than 60,000 members.

The group shares a list of businesses that claim a vaccine passport in B.C. is unconstitutional.

We were in the Lower Mainland & Squamish for a week earlier in the month due to MIL health issues, and they at the time did not have a mask mandate, and there were a whole lot of people in the area we were in not wearing masks indoors.

printer Aug 27th 2021 4:10 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Jsmth321 (Post 13044836)
We were in the Lower Mainland & Squamish for a week earlier in the month due to MIL health issues, and they at the time did not have a mask mandate, and there were a whole lot of people in the area we were in not wearing masks indoors.

So that proves my point, if there is no mandate a lot of people aren't wearing them regardless of any recommendations. Clearly we are not so concerned about others as some people seem to think we should be but rather we do it because its the rules. The original remit was "wear a mask to protect others" yet as a general rule we don't give a damn about others in reality, in fact i always classed mask wearers in 2 categories, one because its the law and two because i don't want to catch your germs. I am pretty sure few wore one because they didn't want to infect some stranger in Costco.
Regardless of all this i am convinced we will not see any significant difference in case counts just because masks have been mandated again, it certainly made no difference here as such.

scrubbedexpat091 Aug 27th 2021 5:25 am

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by printer (Post 13044850)
So that proves my point, if there is no mandate a lot of people aren't wearing them regardless of any recommendations. Clearly we are not so concerned about others as some people seem to think we should be but rather we do it because its the rules. The original remit was "wear a mask to protect others" yet as a general rule we don't give a damn about others in reality, in fact i always classed mask wearers in 2 categories, one because its the law and two because i don't want to catch your germs. I am pretty sure few wore one because they didn't want to infect some stranger in Costco.
Regardless of all this i am convinced we will not see any significant difference in case counts just because masks have been mandated again, it certainly made no difference here as such.

Same with vaccines, the day after they announced coming restrictions for the unvaccinated, weird how Tuesday saw the busiest vaccination day in over a month, and like double the daily average of the last couple weeks, no way that was purely a coincidence, and its easy to get next day appointments in many regions now, and pop up vaccine sites, so really no excuse now, its not like early in the summer where it could take a couple weeks to get an appointment.





Almost Canadian Aug 27th 2021 1:36 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13044788)
The vaccine is certainly doing its job but we've always known that variants of the original virus were possible. We know this to be true with one variant that spreads more quickly but isn't more dangerous while another variant doesn't spread so quickly but is more, let's say, problematic.

What happens if the next one is a bit of both? It seems foolhardy to not worry about a virus spreading when there's a strong possibility of further mutation.

The least we can do is continue to wear masks - as uncomfortable as it is - where appropriate - indoors with other people, outdoors in crowded areas. Carry on with everything else by all means.

I assume you haven't read Danish study that shows that the wearing of masks is statistically insignificant insofar as preventing transmission is concerned.


Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13044788)
Yes, this is all what you were saying before 4.5 million people died isn't it.

To give that number the correct context, we will have to see how much a reduction in the death rate is for the periods of time in the future. If you care to look at the excess deaths rates in the UK, you will see that, after the peak, they quickly reduced to an amount significantly below the norm. Governments all over the world still allow people to purchase cigarettes and alcohol, which kill far more people than this virus is likely to.


Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13044788)
Just prior to your prolonged absence you said

Perhaps it's the government's job because they are quite well placed to study the evidence and opinions of people who know what they are talking about.

I accept that, which is precisely why I couldn't understand the rest of Canada's backlash against Alberta's Chief Medical Officer's opinions a few weeks ago. If the experts are to be believed, it will impossible to get the numbers of cases to zero and, so long as the healthcare systems are able to cope, which they evidently have been at all times during this pandemic, people should be allowed to go about their lives however they see fit. The vaccines are available, people can choose to take them, or not take them, and suffer any risks that either option exposes them too.

Mistakes were made. The borders were not shut down soon enough, Canada's ability to produce its own vaccines was prevented by this government's decision to punish big pharma to the extent they left, old people's homes failed to protect their residences and multi-generational residences ensured easy transmission between family members (remember how I was criticized for asking whether the "everyone should wear masks also wore them at home).

You may recall that dbd33 and I had a bit of banter regarding the "waves". Please tell me when the first wave ended, and the second wave started? Are we still going to be debating whether it is appropriate to open up society in 5 years time when we are in the midst of the 50th wave?

I am on the side of the experts that are advocating that the world will have to learn to live with this. The world has learned enough that all should be able to keep themselves safe and, as with most things in life, it will come down to one's personal risk tolerance.

Mordko Aug 27th 2021 2:10 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

To give that number the correct context, we will have to see how much a reduction in the death rate is for the periods of time in the future. If you care to look at the excess deaths rates in the UK, you will see that, after the peak, they quickly reduced to an amount significantly below the norm. Governments all over the world still allow people to purchase cigarettes and alcohol, which kill far more people than this virus is likely to.
We do know that the life expectancy has dropped in a statistically significant way. There was a good summary by country in the Economist a couple of months back.

Good point about cigarettes but in a way it does not matter. Cigarettes do not shut down economies, do not bankrupt good businesses and do not disrupt social life so that young people are driven to drugs and suicide. Covid does all of it. For good or bad, the society has shown that its not prepared to let people die because hospitals are unable to cope with the demand. Yes, hospitals did cope but only because of the shut downs.

While we don’t know the future, based on the current trends it looks like vaccines will help us avoid further shut downs and we can continue to reopen safely. Even in the US. If politicians had the backbone to introduce vaccine passports across N America we would be in an even stronger position and businesses are doing their bit.

Almost Canadian Aug 27th 2021 3:50 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Mordko (Post 13045028)
We do know that the life expectancy has dropped in a statistically significant way. There was a good summary by country in the Economist a couple of months back.

Good point about cigarettes but in a way it does not matter. Cigarettes do not shut down economies, do not bankrupt good businesses and do not disrupt social life so that young people are driven to drugs and suicide. Covid does all of it. For good or bad, the society has shown that its not prepared to let people die because hospitals are unable to cope with the demand. Yes, hospitals did cope but only because of the shut downs.

While we don’t know the future, based on the current trends it looks like vaccines will help us avoid further shut downs and we can continue to reopen safely. Even in the US. If politicians had the backbone to introduce vaccine passports across N America we would be in an even stronger position and businesses are doing their bit.

With respect, covid hasn't done any of that either, governments have in their attempt to control it.

There are States in the US that have, and have not, locked down, with similar results. I have emergency physicians and nurses as clients here in Calgary. They report to me that capacity has never been an issue, despite what the media portrays. They simply do not understand why the media is reporting as it is.

Like most issues, there is more than one opinion as to how to best deal with this issue. The media appears to trot out the same experts each and every day that have nothing to say but, "...if we don't ... then the numbers will be ...." They never seem to go back to those experts and say, "Hold on a minute, you said that by now there would be ... and that hasn't happened. Why should we believe what you are saying now?" How many people have heard of the Great Barrington Declaration? Why are the media not reporting that other experts believe there is a different way?

I have received two vaccines. So I believe that the vaccines will do more good than harm. We cannot avoid opening society simply to ensure that those that don't want to get the vaccines have more time to do so as, if we do, there will never be an end to this.

The current obsession with vaccine passports is, in my opinion, ludicrous too. If you don't wish to travel on an aeroplane, don't travel on one. If you do, accept that you may pick up an infection and take all steps you wish to take to ensure you don't. The world doesn't require proof of a tuberculosis vaccine to be able to fly? Why not and, if that is acceptable, why shouldn't the same apply to covid too?

Mordko Aug 27th 2021 4:08 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

They report to me that capacity has never been an issue, despite what the media portrays. They simply do not understand why the media is reporting as it is.
Unpersuasive. In Ontario we had to fly in medical professionals from the other provinces. That’s not media’s fault. And the numbers kept going up at an accelerating rate until more and more strict lockdowns were introduced. Media was doing its job. They could have covered up what happened in hospitals in Italy but that’s not its role. Field hospitals in the streets of major US cities seemed to suggest that they may have had a wee bit of a problem too.


The current obsession with vaccine passports is, in my opinion, ludicrous too. If you don't wish to travel on an aeroplane, don't travel on one. If you do, accept that you may pick up an infection and take all steps you wish to take to ensure you don't. The world doesn't require proof of a tuberculosis vaccine to be able to fly? Why not and, if that is acceptable, why shouldn't the same apply to covid too?
This might have something to do with the risk/benefit analysis. Tuberculosis risk has been mitigated in many locations but where its a serious risk, vaccinations are required. Lots of diseases require vaccination proof to go to school.

Vaccination isn’t just an issue of your own protection but public health. There is a long history of enforcement. UK introduced vaccination act in the 19th century (if my memory serves me right). The purpose of vaccine passports is to encourage vaccination uptake as a public health measure. It works. Accelerated uptake dramatically in other countries, like France.

This should be done ASAP at the federal level but unfortunately the leadership is lacking a backbone and/or understanding.

scilly Aug 27th 2021 4:35 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 13045005)
.........................

Mistakes were made. The borders were not shut down soon enough, Canada's ability to produce its own vaccines was prevented by this government's decision to punish big pharma to the extent they left, old people's homes failed to protect their residences and multi-generational residences ensured easy transmission between family members (remember how I was criticized for asking whether the "everyone should wear masks also wore them at home).
.............................
I am on the side of the experts that are advocating that the world will have to learn to live with this. The world has learned enough that all should be able to keep themselves safe and, as with most things in life, it will come down to one's personal risk tolerance.

Incorrect.

It was not THIS government, it was good old Stephen Harper's Conservative government that begin dismantling basic research as soon as they took office back in 2006. It got worse in his later governments. The excuse of course was balancing the budget, and "other countries were doing it so we had no need to duplicate the research".

They are the ones who cut back grants and aid, shut down research labs including at least one with the highest level of security leaving only the one in Winnipeg, who drove scientists at all levels from post-docs to senior researchers out of the country.

They are the ones who cut money to Parks Canada leaving at one point only ONE park ranger in the Rocky Mountains with the status to determine animal and plant viability, other than handling visitors.

He won't be forgiven for that for many years to come.

THIS government was left without any suitable laboratories under NRC OR private control to take on the job of researching and producing vaccines. They have actually had to build research labs from scratch so that we can begin to produce vaccines under license from Pfizer or Astro-Zeneca or Moderna. That takes time, and one heck of a lot of money.

The country did fortunately have a number of privately-funded labs able to do research, hence the ones in Vancouver working with the manufacturers of Pfizer vaccines, they had the know-how to produce the carrier to get the mRNA into the cells.

Most of that funding of course came from outside the country. Ironic, eh??


I do agree with your last comment ................... we are going to have to learn to live with this, as we have learnt to live with flu or any other of the now common infectious diseases that once killed people.

If that means getting a booster shot at least once a year, as with the flu vaccine, then so be it

If that means living with having to wear masks at least part of the time, then so be it.

scilly Aug 27th 2021 4:46 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Mordko (Post 13045065)
............................

Vaccination isn’t just an issue of your own protection but public health. There is a long history of enforcement. UK introduced vaccination act in the 19th century (if my memory serves me right). The purpose of vaccine passports is to encourage vaccination uptake as a public health measure. It works. Accelerated uptake dramatically in other countries, like France.

This should be done ASAP at the federal level but unfortunately the leadership is lacking a backbone and/or understanding.


Don't forget we are a FEDERATION, not a country.

France is a country, the government in Paris has a complete say.

England is a country, Westminster has a complete say for England and for Wales by agreement, but not have complete say in Scotland or northern Ireland.

The Federal government in Canada only governs certain things, such as defense, entry at the country's border, transport, etc

The provinces have much control over what happens in their provinces.

Thus the Feds can order vaccine "passports" for people entering the country and travelling on planes, trains and boats, but cannot mandate for movement within the country by car. Only BC, ONT, etc can mandate within their own borders.

Hence we're going to get a patchwork across the country .................. I might well need a vaccine "passport" to go places in BC, or to board a plane or train as they are controlled by the Federal Transport authority, but not need one to drive into AB if they decide not to have one.


I only wish they did not use the word "passport" as that is what is causing much of the hatred towards them.

Proof of vaccination is what it is, just as I once had to have proof of a smallpox vaccination to enter the US because we were on a 6 month entry, or daughter had to have proof in the form of a doctor's letter because she could NOT have a smallpox vaccination to enter Australia back in the mid-1970s.

Mordko Aug 27th 2021 5:02 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
^ Does not matter. We need a document with a decent level of protection which works across the country. Covid and Canadians move between provinces quite a bit. The Federal Government can and should impose requirements in Federal corporations and federally regulated businesses. Private businesses will do the rest.

Former Lancastrian Aug 27th 2021 5:08 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 
Be interesting to see how these vaccine passports will work between Provinces if travelling. My Province is issuing vaccine cards with a QR code however it is tied to the Provincial website so if I am in Ontario will it work? I have an actual paper certificate which is 8.5 x 11 in size with my personal details and vaccine dates. Do I carry it with me if travelling and show it to whoever? I don't carry a smart phone so I guess I would have to carry it providing other Provinces will accept it.

BristolUK Aug 27th 2021 5:21 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Almost Canadian (Post 13045005)
I assume you haven't read Danish study that shows that the wearing of masks is statistically insignificant insofar as preventing transmission is concerned..

That's at least twice now you've posted something about masks protecting the wearer rather than wearing them to protect others as per "Multiple studies (that) have found that mask wearing has a big impact on Covid-19"

I take it you are referring to the study where the lead researcher continued to recommend mask wearing. It seems you have been sharing the same stuff that deniers have been sharing. :(

The study did not investigate whether masks prevented those infected with Covid-19 from infecting other people.

Experts swiftly pointed out that the study has many limitations, including low compliance (many people did not complete the study, and a high percentage of people who were supposed to wear masks did not) and that it took place in a population where spread of Covid-19 was already low.
:rolleyes:

Mordko Aug 27th 2021 5:45 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by scilly (Post 13045069)
Incorrect.

It was not THIS government, it was good old Stephen Harper's Conservative government that begin dismantling basic research as soon as they took office back in 2006. It got worse in his later governments. The excuse of course was balancing the budget, and "other countries were doing it so we had no need to duplicate the research".

Leaving aside your claim, you are confusing “research” and “manufacturing”.

Almost Canadian Aug 27th 2021 7:45 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by scilly (Post 13045069)
Incorrect.

It was not THIS government, it was good old Stephen Harper's Conservative government that begin dismantling basic research as soon as they took office back in 2006. It got worse in his later governments. The excuse of course was balancing the budget, and "other countries were doing it so we had no need to duplicate the research".

They are the ones who cut back grants and aid, shut down research labs including at least one with the highest level of security leaving only the one in Winnipeg, who drove scientists at all levels from post-docs to senior researchers out of the country.

They are the ones who cut money to Parks Canada leaving at one point only ONE park ranger in the Rocky Mountains with the status to determine animal and plant viability, other than handling visitors.

He won't be forgiven for that for many years to come.

THIS government was left without any suitable laboratories under NRC OR private control to take on the job of researching and producing vaccines. They have actually had to build research labs from scratch so that we can begin to produce vaccines under license from Pfizer or Astro-Zeneca or Moderna. That takes time, and one heck of a lot of money.

The country did fortunately have a number of privately-funded labs able to do research, hence the ones in Vancouver working with the manufacturers of Pfizer vaccines, they had the know-how to produce the carrier to get the mRNA into the cells.

Most of that funding of course came from outside the country. Ironic, eh??


I do agree with your last comment ................... we are going to have to learn to live with this, as we have learnt to live with flu or any other of the now common infectious diseases that once killed people.

If that means getting a booster shot at least once a year, as with the flu vaccine, then so be it

If that means living with having to wear masks at least part of the time, then so be it.

We will have to agree to disagree. There was a video on Youtube that I saw in which, IIRC, the president of the company that developed the Pfizer vaccine explained why Canada was not able to produce any and he laid the blame at this government's feet. When I have more time I will try to find it.

In any event, I suggest you have a read of these:

Vaccine envy: Why can't Canada make COVID-19 doses at home? | CBC News

COVID-19 vaccine maker Providence says it's leaving Canada after calls for more federal support go unanswered | CBC News

Almost Canadian Aug 27th 2021 7:49 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 13045092)
That's at least twice now you've posted something about masks protecting the wearer rather than wearing them to protect others as per "Multiple studies (that) have found that mask wearing has a big impact on Covid-19"

I take it you are referring to the study where the lead researcher continued to recommend mask wearing. It seems you have been sharing the same stuff that deniers have been sharing. :(
:rolleyes:

And the science that are relying upon by way of rebuttal is...

Unlike some on here, I am happy to consider other people's perspective and do so without political affiliation. If Trudeau ever has an original thought that makes sense, I will applaud him for it, just as I would if O'Toole or Singh did.

Almost Canadian Aug 27th 2021 7:55 pm

Re: Coronavirus
 

Originally Posted by Mordko (Post 13045065)
Unpersuasive. In Ontario we had to fly in medical professionals from the other provinces. That’s not media’s fault. And the numbers kept going up at an accelerating rate until more and more strict lockdowns were introduced. Media was doing its job. They could have covered up what happened in hospitals in Italy but that’s not its role. Field hospitals in the streets of major US cities seemed to suggest that they may have had a wee bit of a problem too.

I am in Alberta so, from such a perspective that you have quoted, I can only talk about Alberta.


Originally Posted by Mordko (Post 13045065)
This might have something to do with the risk/benefit analysis. Tuberculosis risk has been mitigated in many locations but where its a serious risk, vaccinations are required. Lots of diseases require vaccination proof to go to school.

We are not talking about school children, that cannot be vaccinated. I thought we were talking about day to day life.


Originally Posted by Mordko (Post 13045065)
Vaccination isn’t just an issue of your own protection but public health. There is a long history of enforcement. UK introduced vaccination act in the 19th century (if my memory serves me right). The purpose of vaccine passports is to encourage vaccination uptake as a public health measure. It works. Accelerated uptake dramatically in other countries, like France.

This should be done ASAP at the federal level but unfortunately the leadership is lacking a backbone and/or understanding.

It's a slippery slope though and I can't think of any medication is that is mandatory to be taken by the entire population in Canada. If Canadians believe that random alcohol testing of drivers is overreach, I can't see them supporting a politician that advocates for mandatory taking of anything.


All times are GMT. The time now is 5:35 pm.

Powered by vBulletin: ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.