Carbon Tax - can someone please explain it to me?
Oct 24th 2018, 10:23 pm
#1
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: South of Calgary
Posts: 13,375
Carbon Tax - can someone please explain it to me?
I like to thing that I am fairly intelligent but watching our glorious federal leader yesterday left me baffled.
So, carbon is bad and we all need to start using less of it - this bit I understand.
Carbon tax (or whatever name they choose to call it) will be placed upon some items.
The idea is to get people to use other, less bad, stuff - I can understand this
90% of the population will receive a rebate back from the government for the carbon tax they may, or may not, have paid, and it will be based upon income.
Apparently, some people will receive more back than they have actually paid.
How the f*&k is this supposed to incentivise people to change their habits and is it redistribution of wealth by another name?
How much carbon has been reduced in BC or Alberta, where they have had such penalties for a few years now?
I get that "putting a price on carbon" makes people feel good, but how will it stop people using carbon in the same way that, for example, forcing all new cars to be able to travel 100kms on a litre of petrol, or forcing all developers of new properties to make them zero carbon emissions? If something needs to be done, why not do it?
So, carbon is bad and we all need to start using less of it - this bit I understand.
Carbon tax (or whatever name they choose to call it) will be placed upon some items.
The idea is to get people to use other, less bad, stuff - I can understand this
90% of the population will receive a rebate back from the government for the carbon tax they may, or may not, have paid, and it will be based upon income.
Apparently, some people will receive more back than they have actually paid.
How the f*&k is this supposed to incentivise people to change their habits and is it redistribution of wealth by another name?
How much carbon has been reduced in BC or Alberta, where they have had such penalties for a few years now?
I get that "putting a price on carbon" makes people feel good, but how will it stop people using carbon in the same way that, for example, forcing all new cars to be able to travel 100kms on a litre of petrol, or forcing all developers of new properties to make them zero carbon emissions? If something needs to be done, why not do it?
Oct 24th 2018, 10:48 pm
#2
Account Closed
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 0
Re: Carbon Tax - can someone please explain it to me?
https://vancouversun.com/business/en...ue-to-increase
"The latest figures, for the year 2015, estimate B.C.’s carbon emissions at 63.3 million tonnes of carbon equivalent, an increase of 1.6 per cent over the previous year."
The article is from Jan 2018 based on data from 2015 which seems to be the most recent available.
I have no idea how much if any we pay in a year in carbon tax, the government gives us back $31.41 each quarter, but again no clue how much if any we paid, but I assume we paid something since we use gasoline and I am sure other things we buy have it built into the products price.
"The latest figures, for the year 2015, estimate B.C.’s carbon emissions at 63.3 million tonnes of carbon equivalent, an increase of 1.6 per cent over the previous year."
The article is from Jan 2018 based on data from 2015 which seems to be the most recent available.
I have no idea how much if any we pay in a year in carbon tax, the government gives us back $31.41 each quarter, but again no clue how much if any we paid, but I assume we paid something since we use gasoline and I am sure other things we buy have it built into the products price.
Oct 24th 2018, 10:54 pm
#3
Oscar nominated
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Moncton, NB, CANADA
Posts: 50,862
Re: Carbon Tax - can someone please explain it to me?
People like their money now. The idea would appear to be that if it's going to cost you now then it doesn't matter if you get it back later (whether in whole or part) so it may put you off parting with that money now and seek the alternative you mention.
People at the lower end of the income scale, faced with the choice of paying extra and getting it back later, may not even have that choice so may be forced to seek the alternative.
I imagine there will be a proportion from the first group who may take to the bus, car share, whatever and maybe a larger proportion from the second group, leading to an overall reduction in use of the bad stuff. Plus it won't get the standard North American reaction of it being a tax grab.
As for redistributing wealth, it depends how they do it. I don't know if you get quarterly GST/HST credit but two years ago my taxable income went down. The following year my HST credit was reduced. Last year my income went up and this year my HST credit went up.
This is the reverse of what normally happens with something income related. But there's a certain sense if this quarterly payment is considered a refund of monies paid on costs attracting HST. If your income goes down, it follows that you may spend less on those items attracting HST, so your refund of HST goes down.
I heard an interview on CBC about it and it was only from a New Brunswick angle. It sounded like the province would have to collect the Carbon Tax, pay it to Ottawa and that Ottawa would later return the monies back to the province rather than to the individual, with the province deciding how to return it to the individual. But I was in the waking up stages so I may have the wrong end of the stick.
Previously, this province increased the HST rate but at the same time introduced a new credit which was additional to the normal quarterly credit. Sounds like a similar concept.
Nearly forgot. The minister interviewed didn't give figures but just said that where such taxes have been introduced, emissions were seen to reduce.
People at the lower end of the income scale, faced with the choice of paying extra and getting it back later, may not even have that choice so may be forced to seek the alternative.
I imagine there will be a proportion from the first group who may take to the bus, car share, whatever and maybe a larger proportion from the second group, leading to an overall reduction in use of the bad stuff. Plus it won't get the standard North American reaction of it being a tax grab.
As for redistributing wealth, it depends how they do it. I don't know if you get quarterly GST/HST credit but two years ago my taxable income went down. The following year my HST credit was reduced. Last year my income went up and this year my HST credit went up.
This is the reverse of what normally happens with something income related. But there's a certain sense if this quarterly payment is considered a refund of monies paid on costs attracting HST. If your income goes down, it follows that you may spend less on those items attracting HST, so your refund of HST goes down.
I heard an interview on CBC about it and it was only from a New Brunswick angle. It sounded like the province would have to collect the Carbon Tax, pay it to Ottawa and that Ottawa would later return the monies back to the province rather than to the individual, with the province deciding how to return it to the individual. But I was in the waking up stages so I may have the wrong end of the stick.
Previously, this province increased the HST rate but at the same time introduced a new credit which was additional to the normal quarterly credit. Sounds like a similar concept.
Nearly forgot. The minister interviewed didn't give figures but just said that where such taxes have been introduced, emissions were seen to reduce.
Oct 24th 2018, 11:11 pm
#4
Account Closed
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 0
Re: Carbon Tax - can someone please explain it to me?
People like their money now. The idea would appear to be that if it's going to cost you now then it doesn't matter if you get it back later (whether in whole or part) so it may put you off parting with that money now and seek the alternative you mention.
People at the lower end of the income scale, faced with the choice of paying extra and getting it back later, may not even have that choice so may be forced to seek the alternative.
This is true, when gas went up for multiple reasons not just a carbon tax, it got to a point we could no longer afford to fuel a car, so the alternative was a gas powered scooter which I put in 6 or so liters a week, vs 45 liters in a car.
I imagine there will be a proportion from the first group who may take to the bus, car share, whatever and maybe a larger proportion from the second group, leading to an overall reduction in use of the bad stuff. Plus it won't get the standard North American reaction of it being a tax grab.
As for redistributing wealth, it depends how they do it. I don't know if you get quarterly GST/HST credit but two years ago my taxable income went down. The following year my HST credit was reduced. Last year my income went up and this year my HST credit went up.
This is the reverse of what normally happens with something income related. But there's a certain sense if this quarterly payment is considered a refund of monies paid on costs attracting HST. If your income goes down, it follows that you may spend less on those items attracting HST, so your refund of HST goes down.
Our income went up and our GST credit went down. When our income went down our GST credit went up.
I heard an interview on CBC about it and it was only from a New Brunswick angle. It sounded like the province would have to collect the Carbon Tax, pay it to Ottawa and that Ottawa would later return the monies back to the province rather than to the individual, with the province deciding how to return it to the individual. But I was in the waking up stages so I may have the wrong end of the stick.
Previously, this province increased the HST rate but at the same time introduced a new credit which was additional to the normal quarterly credit. Sounds like a similar concept.
Nearly forgot. The minister interviewed didn't give figures but just said that where such taxes have been introduced, emissions were seen to reduce.
People at the lower end of the income scale, faced with the choice of paying extra and getting it back later, may not even have that choice so may be forced to seek the alternative.
This is true, when gas went up for multiple reasons not just a carbon tax, it got to a point we could no longer afford to fuel a car, so the alternative was a gas powered scooter which I put in 6 or so liters a week, vs 45 liters in a car.
I imagine there will be a proportion from the first group who may take to the bus, car share, whatever and maybe a larger proportion from the second group, leading to an overall reduction in use of the bad stuff. Plus it won't get the standard North American reaction of it being a tax grab.
As for redistributing wealth, it depends how they do it. I don't know if you get quarterly GST/HST credit but two years ago my taxable income went down. The following year my HST credit was reduced. Last year my income went up and this year my HST credit went up.
This is the reverse of what normally happens with something income related. But there's a certain sense if this quarterly payment is considered a refund of monies paid on costs attracting HST. If your income goes down, it follows that you may spend less on those items attracting HST, so your refund of HST goes down.
Our income went up and our GST credit went down. When our income went down our GST credit went up.
I heard an interview on CBC about it and it was only from a New Brunswick angle. It sounded like the province would have to collect the Carbon Tax, pay it to Ottawa and that Ottawa would later return the monies back to the province rather than to the individual, with the province deciding how to return it to the individual. But I was in the waking up stages so I may have the wrong end of the stick.
Previously, this province increased the HST rate but at the same time introduced a new credit which was additional to the normal quarterly credit. Sounds like a similar concept.
Nearly forgot. The minister interviewed didn't give figures but just said that where such taxes have been introduced, emissions were seen to reduce.
Oct 25th 2018, 1:19 am
#5
Joined: Feb 2006
Location: Red Deer, Alberta
Posts: 10,612
Re: Carbon Tax - can someone please explain it to me?
It hasn't changed how I live, I still need to heat my house and I still need to drive to work. It's just a tax for tax sake. How about incentives on making your home greener, all new building having solar panels, more incentives for manufacturers to make more fuel efficient cars. Not sure I understand why they tax us and then gives some back. It's less than last year and I believe it will be less again next year, but I'm not sure.
Oct 25th 2018, 1:38 am
#6
Oscar nominated
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Moncton, NB, CANADA
Posts: 50,862
Re: Carbon Tax - can someone please explain it to me?
It hasn't changed how I live, I still need to heat my house and I still need to drive to work. It's just a tax for tax sake. How about incentives on making your home greener, all new building having solar panels, more incentives for manufacturers to make more fuel efficient cars. Not sure I understand why they tax us and then gives some back. It's less than last year and I believe it will be less again next year, but I'm not sure.
I think most of these things are already done aren't they? Grants for energy efficient heating systems, rebates for fuel efficient cars making them more popular and more likely to be made to meet demand etc
That recent report about having to do more than previously thought and 12 years to do it is pretty dramatic.
Trump thinks it's scare mongering. That's a good enough reason for me to think the opposite.
Oct 25th 2018, 5:43 am
#7
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: Cochrane, Alberta
Posts: 7,861
Re: Carbon Tax - can someone please explain it to me?
In the Globe and Mail today....simplistic example 
Brendan Frank, at the nonpartisan Ecofiscal Commission, illustrates this with an example: A commuter drives to work most days, but occasionally takes public transit. You raise the price of gas a little bit (the government estimates about 4 cents a litre to start), and suddenly driving just becomes a little bit more expensive. So the commuter starts taking public transit more often to save money. At tax time, they’re paid back and, by the government’s calculations, should have as much or more money than they started with – but by taking transit more, and driving less, they’ve created less pollution.
The point of the program is to create and slightly escalate that pain at the pump. Giving you the money back afterwards just makes it politically palatable. For the Liberals, it’s in the name of their program: It’s not a tax credit or rebate, it’s a “climate action incentive payment." They are trying to incentivize one action over another. Whether it will work remains to be seen.
Brendan Frank, at the nonpartisan Ecofiscal Commission, illustrates this with an example: A commuter drives to work most days, but occasionally takes public transit. You raise the price of gas a little bit (the government estimates about 4 cents a litre to start), and suddenly driving just becomes a little bit more expensive. So the commuter starts taking public transit more often to save money. At tax time, they’re paid back and, by the government’s calculations, should have as much or more money than they started with – but by taking transit more, and driving less, they’ve created less pollution.
The point of the program is to create and slightly escalate that pain at the pump. Giving you the money back afterwards just makes it politically palatable. For the Liberals, it’s in the name of their program: It’s not a tax credit or rebate, it’s a “climate action incentive payment." They are trying to incentivize one action over another. Whether it will work remains to be seen.
Oct 25th 2018, 12:05 pm
#8
Assimilated Pauper
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 40,018
Re: Carbon Tax - can someone please explain it to me?
In the Globe and Mail today....simplistic example
Brendan Frank, at the nonpartisan Ecofiscal Commission, illustrates this with an example: A commuter drives to work most days, but occasionally takes public transit. You raise the price of gas a little bit (the government estimates about 4 cents a litre to start), and suddenly driving just becomes a little bit more expensive. So the commuter starts taking public transit more often to save money. At tax time, they’re paid back and, by the government’s calculations, should have as much or more money than they started with – but by taking transit more, and driving less, they’ve created less pollution.
Brendan Frank, at the nonpartisan Ecofiscal Commission, illustrates this with an example: A commuter drives to work most days, but occasionally takes public transit. You raise the price of gas a little bit (the government estimates about 4 cents a litre to start), and suddenly driving just becomes a little bit more expensive. So the commuter starts taking public transit more often to save money. At tax time, they’re paid back and, by the government’s calculations, should have as much or more money than they started with – but by taking transit more, and driving less, they’ve created less pollution.
This thread is the first I've seen of this program. Will I get a larger tax rebate if I bring the V12 car to work every day?
Oct 25th 2018, 12:23 pm
#9
Oscar nominated
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Moncton, NB, CANADA
Posts: 50,862
Re: Carbon Tax - can someone please explain it to me?
For NB, the money is to be coming back to the individual - the newspaper article said cheques (I hope not) - but it seems it's not income related at all.
$128 for an adult, $64 for spouse and $32 for each child. These are the NB rates with different rates elsewhere.
We'll "do well" as we're four adults - which just shows the bizarre nature of the way Canada does these things.
Oct 25th 2018, 12:35 pm
#10
Oscar nominated
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Moncton, NB, CANADA
Posts: 50,862
Re: Carbon Tax - can someone please explain it to me?
Similarly, taking transit at the single trip fare is economically infeasible.
Oct 25th 2018, 12:47 pm
#11
Assimilated Pauper
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 40,018
Re: Carbon Tax - can someone please explain it to me?
No. Here in a small town it's $20/day or $100/month. In Toronto it's much more expensive. Insurance for the car, if you choose to have it, and parking are much larger commuting costs than petrol. Transit is rarely an option anyway. Increasing the cost of petrol may decrease usage of cars but not in the example advanced above.
Oct 25th 2018, 12:47 pm
#12
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: Cochrane, Alberta
Posts: 7,861
Re: Carbon Tax - can someone please explain it to me?
I don’t have an issue in principle of a carbon levy, but not necessarily because I think it will have a mssive effect on global carbon levels, but because I have to maintain some level of optimism that humans want to do more to look after this one planet we have. I don’t necessarily believe quotes saying that we can make marked progress over 30 years. But we do have to try something more than all the devastating behaviours we currently show.
These types of levy’s do force us to look at the we use and waste resources. Why wouldn’t anyone want to use less fuel or have a better heated or energy efficient home? Why wouldn’t you want to take advantage of technological advances and do things in a better way? Why wouldn’t you want cleaner air to breathe? Why wouldn’t you want better transit options around a city? Why wouldn’t you want a $100 rebate when your old thermostat croaks it and you have to buy anew (smarter) one?
i don’t think it’s all about the elusive climate change numbers. It’s about making us rethink things and how much we waste. Oil, gas, coal - they are all going to run out eventually - and you don’t have to be either anti-oil or a tree-hugger to want to use less of it or use it more efficiently.
When governments want to change behaviours they sometimes increase the cost of something and then leave it up to the individual to choose whether they want to pay it or choose something else. Tax on cigarettes is a classic example - it’s up to you whether you keep on smoking them, no matter the tax.
Finally, I don’t get the whole personal rebate thing really. Use the raised funds to put back dollars into the society as a whole, just like we have current buy-in to using taxes to fund our socialized medicine. Put the money into all those “better” or “alternatives” that are being touted. Make more energy efficient homes part of the planning process, reinvest that money in better technologies, cos like it or not, we are going to need them. They don’t always have to make money right now.
Here is what Alberta says it is doing with the current carbon levy monies, and on the whole, I can’t disagree with it:
“The Climate Leadership Plan, including the carbon levy, contributes to economic diversification, good jobs and reduced emissions.
$5.3 billion will be spent to advance climate leadership initiatives over the next 3 years including public transit, innovation research, energy efficiency programs, infrastructure projects and support to Indigenous communities.
These types of levy’s do force us to look at the we use and waste resources. Why wouldn’t anyone want to use less fuel or have a better heated or energy efficient home? Why wouldn’t you want to take advantage of technological advances and do things in a better way? Why wouldn’t you want cleaner air to breathe? Why wouldn’t you want better transit options around a city? Why wouldn’t you want a $100 rebate when your old thermostat croaks it and you have to buy anew (smarter) one?
i don’t think it’s all about the elusive climate change numbers. It’s about making us rethink things and how much we waste. Oil, gas, coal - they are all going to run out eventually - and you don’t have to be either anti-oil or a tree-hugger to want to use less of it or use it more efficiently.
When governments want to change behaviours they sometimes increase the cost of something and then leave it up to the individual to choose whether they want to pay it or choose something else. Tax on cigarettes is a classic example - it’s up to you whether you keep on smoking them, no matter the tax.
Finally, I don’t get the whole personal rebate thing really. Use the raised funds to put back dollars into the society as a whole, just like we have current buy-in to using taxes to fund our socialized medicine. Put the money into all those “better” or “alternatives” that are being touted. Make more energy efficient homes part of the planning process, reinvest that money in better technologies, cos like it or not, we are going to need them. They don’t always have to make money right now.
Here is what Alberta says it is doing with the current carbon levy monies, and on the whole, I can’t disagree with it:
“The Climate Leadership Plan, including the carbon levy, contributes to economic diversification, good jobs and reduced emissions.
$5.3 billion will be spent to advance climate leadership initiatives over the next 3 years including public transit, innovation research, energy efficiency programs, infrastructure projects and support to Indigenous communities.
- $1.6 billion over 3 years to provide carbon levy rebates to over 60% of Albertans to offset costs associated with the carbon levy
- $680 million over 3 years to support Alberta's transition away from coal-generated electricity, including financial supports for coal workers and communities, and to cap electricity prices to protect families, farms and small businesses
- $662 million over 3 years to support energy efficiency projects to help Albertans and businesses reduce energy use
- $145 million over 3 years to support climate leadership initiatives in Indigenous communities
- $1.3 billion in funding for a variety of programs to enable greater public use of transit
- $521 million over 3 years to support innovation and technology development
- $386 million over 3 years for future programming or an expansion of existing programs and initiatives, as well as funding for delivery of programming across government
Oct 25th 2018, 1:11 pm
#13
Oscar nominated
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Moncton, NB, CANADA
Posts: 50,862
Re: Carbon Tax - can someone please explain it to me?
The resistance in North America to anything like this is quite funny when you consider the things done in Europe.
Some cities have no car days; restricting cars in the city according to name or number plate, whatever, and then reversing it so everyone takes a turn; Bus lanes; multiple occupancy lanes; congestion charges, park and rides...
Here in Moncton, we have 2 or 3 weekends a year where Downtown is pedestrians only - car show, bike show, whatever the event. It all works very well and popularly so. But have a debate about making it pedestrians only for a period in summer and all the motorists are up in arms saying it won't work...even though there are two alternative routes running parallel within 300m either side, one of them a much wider, speedier route.
Some cities have no car days; restricting cars in the city according to name or number plate, whatever, and then reversing it so everyone takes a turn; Bus lanes; multiple occupancy lanes; congestion charges, park and rides...
Here in Moncton, we have 2 or 3 weekends a year where Downtown is pedestrians only - car show, bike show, whatever the event. It all works very well and popularly so. But have a debate about making it pedestrians only for a period in summer and all the motorists are up in arms saying it won't work...even though there are two alternative routes running parallel within 300m either side, one of them a much wider, speedier route.
Oct 25th 2018, 1:11 pm
#14
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: South of Calgary
Posts: 13,375
Re: Carbon Tax - can someone please explain it to me?
It hasn't changed how I live, I still need to heat my house and I still need to drive to work. It's just a tax for tax sake. How about incentives on making your home greener, all new building having solar panels, more incentives for manufacturers to make more fuel efficient cars. Not sure I understand why they tax us and then gives some back. It's less than last year and I believe it will be less again next year, but I'm not sure.
Oct 25th 2018, 1:18 pm
#15
Oscar nominated
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: Moncton, NB, CANADA
Posts: 50,862
Re: Carbon Tax - can someone please explain it to me?
My daughter is a student and she works. As such, she files a tax return. Her income is low so she receives the carbon tax rebate, notwithstanding the fact that no one has asked her to provide any form of document that shows the carbon tax she had to pay for the period in question. She is delighted, but realises the stupidity of the program, at least here in Alberta.
Instead, an average is calculated.