Jingsamichty

The new 50p which is being issued to commemorate Brexit contains the phrase "Peace, Prosperity and Friendship with all Nations". It's a bit of a mindless platitude, but Philip Pullman, author of His Dark Materials, has waded in with the insistence that there should be an Oxford comma after the word 'Prosperity'. I think he's incorrect, but it has sparked a bit of a heated debate about the Oxford comma.

Response of the day has to come from finance and economics reporter Frances Coppola, who said, "As all literate people know, the Oxford comma is entirely optional. But it offends both in its presence and its absence. Whatever the choice someone will think it is wrong. There could not be a better commemoration of Brexit."

Oakvillian

Hmmm. I side with Pullman. There are three ideals expressed. The first is peace; the second is prosperity; the third is friendship with all nations. Without the Oxford comma, the sentence is grammatically ambiguous, with the potential to be read as peace, prosperity with all nations, and friendship with all nations.

Or, if the intent is to indicate the three ideals are peace with all nations, prosperity with all nations (although that's garbled) and friendship with all nations, then the third comma should come after "friendship" so that it reads "Peace, prosperity and friendship, with all nations." That's not an Oxford comma. But I don't think that's what's intended.

Frances Coppola is right to highlight the analogy though. An esoteric but ultimately pointless discussion in which half the participants are bound to end up unsatisfied.

CanadaJimmy

Yeah I agree with Pullman also. I think a comma there makes sense just because most people would naturally take a breath before saying "and Friendship with all Nations".

Atlantic Xpat

I shall be in Blighty for the great Brexit. As I was for dead in a ditch back in October. I expect either rioting on the streets or jubilation depending upon your point of view. I suspect I'll be disappointed on both counts.

BristolUK

I was always taught that a comma before the 'and' was unnecessary but obviously there are times when it's needed for clarification.

I'm not convinced this particular example is one needing clarity.

I hadn't even heard of an Oxford comma until I read the story. Is it different to an ordinary comma?

scrubbedexpat142

Pullman is right.

The last line of Coppola's quote is also correct - because, let's face it, the production of a coin best suited to feeding parking meters & vending machines is about all brexit is worth.

spouse of scouse

This is the clearest explanation I've seen

dave_j

I disagree with Pullman.
The comma isn't necessary with a following 'and'.
Logically the comma in this instance tells the reader that whatever follows is to treated as being connected to the word or phrase preceding it. The following 'and' is used to associate whatever precedes it with whatever follows it and is used in place of a comma to allow the phrase to flow better.

If the phrase is replaced by "Peace and Prosperity and Friendship with all Nations" it is equivalent logically but no commas are required.

scrubbedexpat142

No. Apart from multiple "ands" being clumsy, prosperity would need to be clarified with either "for" or "to" - just as "friendship" is qualified with "with".

dave_j

I'm not suggesting that "Peace and Prosperity and Friendship with all Nations" should be used, what I'm describing is an equivalent statement that's explicit logically. It isn't ambiguous, it states what it states and requires no commas.
It demonstrates that a comma between Prosperity and 'and' isn't needed.
I don't agree that further qualification of the individual elements of the statement are needed any more than they were with the original statement.

Paul_Shepherd

Maybe they wanted to keep things consistent...there was a commemorative 50p struck to enter the EU, now there is one to commemorate leaving the EU.

Oakvillian

But your example isn't explicit. Is it peace with all nations and prosperity with all nations and friendship with all nations, or is "friendship with all nations" a self-contained phrase. The effective placement of a comma after "prosperity" makes that explicitly clear in a way that your recasting of the phrase does not.

Change the order of the ideas, and for sure your suggestion might make an explicit meaning clear. "Friendship with all nations, peace and prosperity." That's unambiguous; an Oxford comma here would be acceptable stylistically but not necessary grammatically. But that dangling "with all nations" at the end needs a comma somewhere, to clarify which part(s) of the rest of the phrase it's referring to.

Jingsamichty

Cast your mind back to those heady University of sex, drugs and rock'n'roll...

Jingsamichty

Back to the 10-bob bit though,,, I'm ambivalent about the Oxford comma, but why are the words Peace, Prosperity, Friendship and Nations capitalised? They're not defined terms. This coin is an amateurish effort all round.

BristolUK

So, you'd like to see some change then?