Boeing 737 Max 8

Old Apr 12th 2019, 6:19 pm
  #121  
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Default Re: Boeing 737 Max 8

Originally Posted by calman014 View Post
I have worked on several commercial types, both from Boeing and Airbus.
Boeing used to have pretty solid safety procedures and almost every system onboard had a backup of some kind and in some cases 2, this is referred to as "Redundancy".

Admittedly that was before we had "glass cockpits" full of screens rather than the old analog dials for the various sensors and indicators needed to fly.
Only last week, a plane was forced to land due to complete cockpit display failure.

When Airbus released its first models, Boeing was the first to criticise, as Airbus depended heavily on computer aided flight. You may have seen some shots of airbuses pulling some pretty impressive manouvers at airshows for example, where the computer would override inputs from the pilot and not allow him or her to push the aircraft out of its safe flying envelope.

The 737 has been a mainstay of all airlines for many years, but to stretch a plane, hang extremely powerful engines on the wing which wasn't really designed for the type and then to expect software to compensate for the inherent instability is not a good strategy, nor is still trying to call it a 737 and use the historical safety record to try and push sales. As usual a frantic attempt to capture the market.
I think that this has been a massive blunder of Boeing and it will be interesting to see how this develops.
Yes and have also seen the footage of the Airbus A320 crashing in 1988 at the Paris air show while doing a low fly past. A320 was the first passenger plane to have fly by wire and it seems that 30 years later boeing are now having flight envelope problems as well. There is nothing a pilot can do if he inputs commands that are outside the flight envelope as the computer will take over to correct the problem, but if the computers are also getting erroneous data from faulty sensors then you are up shit creek without a paddle.
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Old Apr 12th 2019, 6:56 pm
  #122  
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Default Re: Boeing 737 Max 8

It really is a minefield. My family hates asking me questions because when they do I start by assuming they know nothing and try to explain some basic principles first, some of which they will already know and this tends to turn them off, but.....
When writing operating manuals you should always start from the premise that the reader doesn't necessarily know what you know. It's characteristic of poorly written documents that as a reader you encounter gibberish intelligible only to those who wrote it.
Even so, expensive mishaps can slip through, and continuing the aviation theme...
For example the brand new pre-delivery Etihad A340 that drove itself into a wall during an engine run-up test because, for whatever reason, the pilots failed to understand that a safety feature made sure that the brakes were off when the engines were under power to ensure that the plane couldn't land with the brakes on. It was just unfortunate that a wall was in the way.
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Old Apr 18th 2019, 2:42 am
  #123  
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Default Re: Boeing 737 Max 8

Looks like Boeing has completed the test flights and will be moving towards certification.
85% of MAX operators have experienced the software fix in simulators.
120 test flights with 230 hours of airtime.

https://globalnews.ca/news/5179786/b...eKxfCfpDb2nLAI
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Old Apr 18th 2019, 3:32 am
  #124  
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Default Re: Boeing 737 Max 8

Originally Posted by Jsmth321 View Post
Looks like Boeing has completed the test flights and will be moving towards certification.
85% of MAX operators have experienced the software fix in simulators.120 test flights with 230 hours of airtime.
https://globalnews.ca/news/5179786/boeing-software-update-ceo/?utm_medium=Facebook&utm_source=GlobalNews&fbclid= IwAR25AM-WjAe1rwF3OyBw62KKLdFoF9pN-aeiiKvDywDrneKxfCfpDb2nLAI
An interesting read; one quote from which states ' Boeing is reprogramming 737 MAX software to prevent erroneous data from triggering an anti-stall system that came under scrutiny following the two deadly nose-down crashes.'
I read this to mean that, since the MAX has only two angle of attack sensors, then the system will compare the output from each and if they vary by a predetermined amount then the data will be deemed to be faulty and the son of MCAS will not be triggered.
But, MCAS was developed to prevent the aircraft from attaining an attitude that could result in a stall, and it was apparently not made generally available to those who might need to know of it's existence.
So, what happens if one sensor genuinely indicates a high nose-up attitude whilst the other is faulty but indicates level flight? Apparently a warning light will indicate sensor conflict but that's all. What hasn't been addressed is the aberrant nature of the aircraft's behaviour.
Boeing is placing responsibility on the pilots to recognise and correct flight issues generated by having stretched the 737 airframe to accomodate larger engines instead of having decided to develop a new airframe. I know that's why we have pilots and no doubt they'll be on the lookout for this issue.. but unexpected consequences can arise from pilots predisposed to expect one problem when a completely different problem might exist.
I trust that aircrew flying in the MAX will command a premium and ensure their insurance is up to date.

Last edited by dave_j; Apr 18th 2019 at 3:41 am.
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Old Apr 18th 2019, 12:38 pm
  #125  
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Default Re: Boeing 737 Max 8

There is a clue in how the engines on 787 Max are positioned on to the wings:

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Old Apr 18th 2019, 1:27 pm
  #126  
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Default Re: Boeing 737 Max 8

“A well made aircraft will more or less fly itself when you let go of the controls”
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Old Apr 18th 2019, 5:53 pm
  #127  
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Default Re: Boeing 737 Max 8

Originally Posted by Edo View Post
There is a clue in how the engines on 787 Max are positioned on to the wings:

The real reason Boeing's new plane crashed twice
Very good video, explains the issue very well. If you think about it, it was a accident waiting to happen......solely relying on software and sensors to control the aircraft's flight behaviour due to major aerodynamic changes, and no training or effective override for the pilot to compensate. But from a marketing competition point of view, they didn't want to draw attention to MCAS and totally played down additonal pilot training too as it would obviously put them on the back foot compared to Airbus.

It makes me wonder if the commercial aircraft side of Boeing will ever recover from this....
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Old Apr 19th 2019, 4:50 am
  #128  
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Default Re: Boeing 737 Max 8

Originally Posted by Paul_Shepherd View Post
It makes me wonder if the commercial aircraft side of Boeing will ever recover from this....
They will inevitably.
https://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/...ware-developer
This is the best summary of the problem I've read. Indirectly the reasons given for failure in the article are why I suggest Boeing will recover.
Greed.

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Old Apr 29th 2019, 9:46 pm
  #129  
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Default Re: Boeing 737 Max 8

So the remaining family members of two Ontario family’s taking Boeing to court over this !!


https://www.google.ca/amp/s/globalne...-families/amp/
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Old Apr 30th 2019, 3:45 am
  #130  
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Default Re: Boeing 737 Max 8

CEO at the shareholder's meeting today.
Any objective view will conclude that MCAS was a feature operative on the MAX series to counter a propensity of the airplane to raise the nose and potentially stall as power is applied from the larger and more powerful engines. It will also conclude that MCAS relied on a single sensor with a history of failure in use. It will also conclude that systems intended to alert pilots on sensor failure were optional extras, available at extra cost.
CEO stated "safety systems on its 737 Max jets were properly designed".
This statement is an indictment of Boeing's design procedures. It is difficult to understand that obvious questions that should have properly been asked at the design checking and certification steps were simply not asked or perhaps ignored.
This CEO oversaw the manufacture of unsafe aircraft, how can he remain CEO after stating they were properly designed?
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Old May 6th 2019, 3:30 pm
  #131  
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Default Re: Boeing 737 Max 8

A worrying admission:
"Boeing has admitted that it knew about a problem with its 737 Max jets a year before the aircraft was involved in two fatal accidents, but took no action."
Q. What else does Boeing know about it's products that could impact safety?
A. We'll never know, so best get drunk next time you sit in one of their tin cans.
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Old May 6th 2019, 3:38 pm
  #132  
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Default Re: Boeing 737 Max 8

Originally Posted by dave_j View Post
A. We'll never know, so best get drunk next time you sit in one of their tin cans.
Ah, the good old days, when you could show up late and half cut, running through the terminal and they'd hold the gangway for you. Now they don't even want to let you in the departure lounge if you've been preparing for the flight.
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Old May 9th 2019, 11:55 pm
  #133  
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Default Re: Boeing 737 Max 8

The FAA has created another joint board in regards to the 737 MAX.

The new one consists of experts from NASA, the US Air Force and DOT’s Volpe National Transportation Systems Center, none of which were involved in the initial certification process.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...upgrade-review

The Joint Authorities Technical Review the FAA set up met last week, made up of authorities from 8 countries, and tasked with doing a comprehensive review of the 737 MAX certification process. Report from this group is due in 90 days, and is separate from the certification of the new software.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-certification

Wise of the FAA not to go alone, and if/when the fix is approved and planes in the air, it will have been a mix of agencies and countries who approved it and not relying on Boeing or the FAA alone.
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Old May 17th 2019, 12:55 am
  #134  
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Default Re: Boeing 737 Max 8

Boeing say's they are done with the software fix. Next stage is trying to get certification, certification flights have not yet been scheduled.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/boeing...zceeF1kf5i7xGE
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Old May 17th 2019, 9:25 am
  #135  
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Default Re: Boeing 737 Max 8

Typically in modern America, the "Administration" blames foreign pilots for the Max failures -

Article

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