Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

I don't usually know what type of plane I'm on so I don't suppose I'd feel anything at all.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Nah, the high priced tickets are on the same plane ;)

Might be old, the A320 I was on from Palm Springs was 20 something, but old doesn't mean unsafe.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

I flew the MAX, ohh, probably 10 times last year. Mostly across the Atlantic from St John's to Heathrow. Living here, you have little option as its the only plane that AC flies transatlantic from here and many of the St John's - Toronto flights are also on the MAX. I have no immediate travel planned but the family and I are heading back to Blighty this summer and flying via Halifax on Westjet who also, of course, operate 737 MAX across the pond.

Statistically, I know that flying in any aircraft is pretty safe - as the saying goes, the most dangerous thing is the drive to the airport. However, this latest crash does give pause for concern. I hope that some light is shed on root cause and mitigation before I load all those that I care most about on one of the things.

Commentary of various fora (pprune as an example) is that the MAX is bit of a design stretch too far for what is a rather vintage airframe. (first flown in '67 I think). It's been adopted by AC and others to fit the skinny long route need - flying longer distances, cheaper than a 777 or 787 where passenger loads don't justify the larger aircraft. So it's deservedly popular with airlines. Boeing have something like 4000+ Max in their order book and essentially can't build them fast enough. Of course if this latest crash proves to be same root cause as the Indonesian one last year, all bets are off and I can see the entire fleet being grounded. (China has already done this for all MAX operated there, as have various airlines around the world.)

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

So its now China, Indonesia, and Singapore government's grounding the 737 MAX, airlines who have chosen to do so include Ethiopian Airlines, Cayman Airways, GOL, Aerolineas Argentinas, Aero Mexico. Some 130 aircraft worldwide are now grounded either due to government action, or airlines choosing to do so.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Boeing: "There's absolutely nothing wrong with them, but we are rushing out a software patch."
US regulator: "There's absolutely nothing wrong with them, but we are mandating changes that must take place by April."

At Christmas I was kinda disappointed most of our planes getting between the coast and interior were Q400s not 737s, due to noise and size, now not so much....

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

As there is no evidence of structural failure an inspection is unnecessary.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

I'm currently flying Ryanair weekly on the 737-800, but I understand that their first 737-MAX aircraft are due for delivery from May. Hopefully there is clarity on the issues before then... it does sound likes a controls glitch. Must be bad if experienced pilots can't recover the plane manually.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

"Experienced" could be the key word here (as in specific, training, etc).

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

I'm an extremely nervous flyer. Two days before this happened I booked flights to Quebec City via Montreal. On a 737 MAX 8.
At first I thought I thought I'd just see how the investigations go but now I'm watching lots of countries banning the aircraft and am uneasy that the US/Canada isn't doing the same I'll probably pay the charges and rebook the flights.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

The UK has just banned the 737-MAX...

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

I don't think I've flown in a 737-Max 8, but have done a dozen or so domestic flights in the other 737 models on Westjet and always thought they were good. I had the feeling there was lots of power available and even in very poor weather conditions the pilots used it to get us through. If there is a design flaw in the Max 8 software somewhere I trust they'll sort it out before I have the chance to get on one. A lot of the AC flights from Regina to Vancouver and Penticton are in turboprop Dash-8's and since it's only a few hours I don't mind that too much; also my cousin was a test pilot on the Dash-8 and proclaimed it the safest plane in the air ("I tried to crash it.")

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Including overflights of UK airspace by the MAX which seems...odd. Fly Norwegian who is a big MAX operator has also suspended flights. One can't imagine that AC and WJ are going to be that far behind surely? Although the FAA hasn't taken any action as yet.

To quote John Ostrower, an Aviation Journalist, "If it was Southwest and American and not Lion Air and Ethiopian five months apart, the 737 Max fleet would’ve been grounded by Sunday evening." i.e. if these accidents happened in the USA with the largest MAX operators, do you think we'd still be talking about "if" they are grounded?

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

I don't think the number of planes in service with the airlines is a factor there. I think the difference is twofold. Firstly there's a perception in America that the US airlines maintain their aircraft more diligently than third world airlines meaning that Southwest and American flights could still be safe even if Lion Air and Ethiopian ones were not. Secondly, White Lives Matter and there would be fewer white people on the flights outside the US.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Both valid (if slightly depressing) points. The former likely has some truth, particularly if extended to pilot training vs. third world. The latter is a short-term view. Much of the 737 MAX order book (4000+ aircraft) is for Asia Pac airlines. Implying to those customers that you don't value their passenger and crew lives as highly as US ones, would seem a short-sighted business strategy by Boeing!

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

works for me. I love flying but I dont feel overly comfortable about flying on this aircraft type at this time. We have a Westjet flight booked to the UK in June and this means it cannot be on a MAX aircraft. Thats fine by me.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

I'm pretty much the same. I did 9 business trips last year, 8 of which were to London from St John's and 5 or so were on the MAX. I'm not a nervous flyer by any measure (flying out of St John's can be an "interesting" experience at times!), but this is concerning. We're all booked on WJ out of Halifax in July on what, right now, is scheduled to be a MAX. I hope for some clarity on the issue and resolution before I have to get on that aircraft type. If WJ subsitute a 737-800 then that will be just fine. The problem is, of course, dropping 13 I think it is, aircraft out of WJ's Fleet (plus 24 out of AC) will more than likely result in flights being simply cancelled as they don't have enough planes to cover all routes.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

I think there isnt enough time between now and then for an investigation to conclude. Therefore maybe this is a real risk and frankly I dont want my flight cancelled, and I dont want to get on the Max.... meh

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Of course the immediate consequence of this is that WJ and AC will presumably have to cancel their Halifax and St John's to London flights, or substitute a different aircraft. Heads up for anyone planning to travel these routes in the immediate future.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Britain, China, Singapore, Indonesia, Australia, South Korea, Ethiopia, Morocco, Mongolia, Malaysia, Oman. Brazil, Argentina, Mexico - not looking good for this aircraft. I hope the fault, if there is one, can be detected and sorted out quickly.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

When driving in canada I choose to drive on the right. I could drive on the left but it very likely would not end well.
Choosing to drive on the right eliminates an avoidable risk.
Unfortunately, for those on the Ethiopean Airlines flight, insufficient information was then available allowing them to avoid what is becoming a risk too far.
In both the Lionair and the EA cases the aircraft apparently flew itself to earth despite the efforts that the pilots would have made to prevent it.
The issue before us is one where those at the sharp end, the passenger, is unaware of what really happened but I strongly suspect that those who find themselves in a better position to judge how airworthy the aircraft is are acting to keep the aircraft out of their skies, and this is evidence in itself.
If I were to judge whether this aircraft should be flying I'd examine the evidence. I'd conclude that there exist some conditions under which software embedded within the flight control system will prevent pilots from safely operating the aircraft and will act to override such efforts and to drive the aircraft downwards irrespective of height.
Personally I would not fly in this aircraft, it remains an avoidable risk until evidence proves otherwise.
Unlike many aircraft accidents where the fault can be ascribed to pilot error or mechanical failure, the apparent problem with this model is systemic and I'm tempted to wonder how the FAA will approach this if it's discovered that software is at fault since I understand that it was installed to avoid another feature of the aircraft which is a tendency for the aircraft nose to lift and to prevent stalling.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

France, Germany, ROI.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

From the Wall Street Journal, 2019 February 10 -

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Maybe too much automation in planes these days?

The routes from Atlantic Canada to UK are already affected, wonder if AC will put a rouge 767 on the routes until they can fly the Max again on it, or just cancel the routes until further notice?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-...udVKwJbCIIpeBM

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

The use of software to rectify a characteristic inherent in the design / construction of civil aircraft is fundamentally wrong.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

I am unsure of the financial issues here.

What do you estimate the liability cost in terms of immediate penalties and compensation to the airline would be if they continued operating and a plane crashed? What value would you put on the public relations problem/loss of confidence in a US airline that did that? What's the position of the airlines' insurance carriers on all this; they likely have fine print allowing them to step back at this point.

On the other side, what's the cost to, say, Southwest of grounding their examples of this plane until April? Can they recoup any of the losses from Boeing?

How does all of this compare with the same considerations for airlines not based in north America? Traditionally damages are higher in the US so one might think US carriers would have the greater incentive to ground dodgy planes.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

The 737 itself is a good aircraft. The 800 MAX is not only a 'stretched' version to accommodate more seating, but also modified to conform to wishes of airlines and passengers regarding fuel economy and environmental concerns. The big problem is that software is now used to tweak or tune these aircraft to perform to these criteria either by compensating for stretched airframes and possible extra instability or aerodynamic issues, but also how the engines perform under certain conditions.

Boeing has been painfully slow in reacting in a transparent manner, and of course the FAA will support an American product as far as they see fit. I think the bans are a positive move and show that manufacturers/ airlines need to react much more quickly in these days of social media.

Once upon a time Pilots used to use physical effort to fly a plane..those days are long gone...

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Reluctant though I might be to suggest that electing a ****ing moron (pay attention Ford voters) has far reaching consequences beyond the obvious, thread readers might want to consider that, at that this time, no one is in charge of the FAA. There was a nominee:

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/...pticism-366199

one Congress rejected. We might be a long time waiting for regulatory action from the US authorities.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Seems the job of the acting administrator is in part running the show while a permanent administrator is found.

https://www.faa.gov/about/key_officials/elwell/

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Did you not see the ****ing moron's tweets on the subject?

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...62064007fa.jpg

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

His barrel is bottomless.

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I did see those but found no great insight there.

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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Similar in the US with flight attendant unions.

Some of the pilot unions appear to be on the opposite page as the flight attendants.

Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
 

Sunwing has grounded their fleet of Max. First Canadian airline to do so.