Boeing 737 Max 8
Apr 12th 2019, 6:19 pm
#121
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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
I have worked on several commercial types, both from Boeing and Airbus.
Boeing used to have pretty solid safety procedures and almost every system onboard had a backup of some kind and in some cases 2, this is referred to as "Redundancy".
Admittedly that was before we had "glass cockpits" full of screens rather than the old analog dials for the various sensors and indicators needed to fly.
Only last week, a plane was forced to land due to complete cockpit display failure.
When Airbus released its first models, Boeing was the first to criticise, as Airbus depended heavily on computer aided flight. You may have seen some shots of airbuses pulling some pretty impressive manouvers at airshows for example, where the computer would override inputs from the pilot and not allow him or her to push the aircraft out of its safe flying envelope.
The 737 has been a mainstay of all airlines for many years, but to stretch a plane, hang extremely powerful engines on the wing which wasn't really designed for the type and then to expect software to compensate for the inherent instability is not a good strategy, nor is still trying to call it a 737 and use the historical safety record to try and push sales. As usual a frantic attempt to capture the market.
I think that this has been a massive blunder of Boeing and it will be interesting to see how this develops.
Boeing used to have pretty solid safety procedures and almost every system onboard had a backup of some kind and in some cases 2, this is referred to as "Redundancy".
Admittedly that was before we had "glass cockpits" full of screens rather than the old analog dials for the various sensors and indicators needed to fly.
Only last week, a plane was forced to land due to complete cockpit display failure.
When Airbus released its first models, Boeing was the first to criticise, as Airbus depended heavily on computer aided flight. You may have seen some shots of airbuses pulling some pretty impressive manouvers at airshows for example, where the computer would override inputs from the pilot and not allow him or her to push the aircraft out of its safe flying envelope.
The 737 has been a mainstay of all airlines for many years, but to stretch a plane, hang extremely powerful engines on the wing which wasn't really designed for the type and then to expect software to compensate for the inherent instability is not a good strategy, nor is still trying to call it a 737 and use the historical safety record to try and push sales. As usual a frantic attempt to capture the market.
I think that this has been a massive blunder of Boeing and it will be interesting to see how this develops.
Apr 12th 2019, 6:56 pm
#122
Listen to the Music
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Fraser Valley BC
Posts: 4,706
Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
It really is a minefield. My family hates asking me questions because when they do I start by assuming they know nothing and try to explain some basic principles first, some of which they will already know and this tends to turn them off, but.....
When writing operating manuals you should always start from the premise that the reader doesn't necessarily know what you know. It's characteristic of poorly written documents that as a reader you encounter gibberish intelligible only to those who wrote it.
Even so, expensive mishaps can slip through, and continuing the aviation theme...
For example the brand new pre-delivery Etihad A340 that drove itself into a wall during an engine run-up test because, for whatever reason, the pilots failed to understand that a safety feature made sure that the brakes were off when the engines were under power to ensure that the plane couldn't land with the brakes on. It was just unfortunate that a wall was in the way.
When writing operating manuals you should always start from the premise that the reader doesn't necessarily know what you know. It's characteristic of poorly written documents that as a reader you encounter gibberish intelligible only to those who wrote it.
Even so, expensive mishaps can slip through, and continuing the aviation theme...
For example the brand new pre-delivery Etihad A340 that drove itself into a wall during an engine run-up test because, for whatever reason, the pilots failed to understand that a safety feature made sure that the brakes were off when the engines were under power to ensure that the plane couldn't land with the brakes on. It was just unfortunate that a wall was in the way.
Apr 18th 2019, 2:42 am
#123
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Posts: 0
Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
Looks like Boeing has completed the test flights and will be moving towards certification.
85% of MAX operators have experienced the software fix in simulators.
120 test flights with 230 hours of airtime.
https://globalnews.ca/news/5179786/b...eKxfCfpDb2nLAI
85% of MAX operators have experienced the software fix in simulators.
120 test flights with 230 hours of airtime.
https://globalnews.ca/news/5179786/b...eKxfCfpDb2nLAI
Apr 18th 2019, 3:32 am
#124
Listen to the Music
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Location: Fraser Valley BC
Posts: 4,706
Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
Looks like Boeing has completed the test flights and will be moving towards certification.
85% of MAX operators have experienced the software fix in simulators.120 test flights with 230 hours of airtime.
https://globalnews.ca/news/5179786/boeing-software-update-ceo/?utm_medium=Facebook&utm_source=GlobalNews&fbclid= IwAR25AM-WjAe1rwF3OyBw62KKLdFoF9pN-aeiiKvDywDrneKxfCfpDb2nLAI
85% of MAX operators have experienced the software fix in simulators.120 test flights with 230 hours of airtime.
https://globalnews.ca/news/5179786/boeing-software-update-ceo/?utm_medium=Facebook&utm_source=GlobalNews&fbclid= IwAR25AM-WjAe1rwF3OyBw62KKLdFoF9pN-aeiiKvDywDrneKxfCfpDb2nLAI
I read this to mean that, since the MAX has only two angle of attack sensors, then the system will compare the output from each and if they vary by a predetermined amount then the data will be deemed to be faulty and the son of MCAS will not be triggered.
But, MCAS was developed to prevent the aircraft from attaining an attitude that could result in a stall, and it was apparently not made generally available to those who might need to know of it's existence.
So, what happens if one sensor genuinely indicates a high nose-up attitude whilst the other is faulty but indicates level flight? Apparently a warning light will indicate sensor conflict but that's all. What hasn't been addressed is the aberrant nature of the aircraft's behaviour.
Boeing is placing responsibility on the pilots to recognise and correct flight issues generated by having stretched the 737 airframe to accomodate larger engines instead of having decided to develop a new airframe. I know that's why we have pilots and no doubt they'll be on the lookout for this issue.. but unexpected consequences can arise from pilots predisposed to expect one problem when a completely different problem might exist.
I trust that aircrew flying in the MAX will command a premium and ensure their insurance is up to date.
Last edited by dave_j; Apr 18th 2019 at 3:41 am.
Apr 18th 2019, 12:38 pm
#125
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Joined: Oct 2008
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Posts: 1,466
Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
There is a clue in how the engines on 787 Max are positioned on to the wings:
Apr 18th 2019, 1:27 pm
#126
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Posts: 1,108
Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
“A well made aircraft will more or less fly itself when you let go of the controls”
Apr 18th 2019, 5:53 pm
#127
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Posts: 2,113
Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
There is a clue in how the engines on 787 Max are positioned on to the wings:
The real reason Boeing's new plane crashed twice
The real reason Boeing's new plane crashed twice
It makes me wonder if the commercial aircraft side of Boeing will ever recover from this....
Apr 19th 2019, 4:50 am
#128
Listen to the Music
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Location: Fraser Valley BC
Posts: 4,706
Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
https://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/...ware-developer
This is the best summary of the problem I've read. Indirectly the reasons given for failure in the article are why I suggest Boeing will recover.
Greed.
Apr 29th 2019, 9:46 pm
#129
Nuther day in paradise.ca
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2008
Location: Ajax, Ontario
Posts: 7,263
Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
So the remaining family members of two Ontario family’s taking Boeing to court over this !!
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/globalne...-families/amp/
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/globalne...-families/amp/
Apr 30th 2019, 3:45 am
#130
Listen to the Music
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Location: Fraser Valley BC
Posts: 4,706
Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
CEO at the shareholder's meeting today.
Any objective view will conclude that MCAS was a feature operative on the MAX series to counter a propensity of the airplane to raise the nose and potentially stall as power is applied from the larger and more powerful engines. It will also conclude that MCAS relied on a single sensor with a history of failure in use. It will also conclude that systems intended to alert pilots on sensor failure were optional extras, available at extra cost.
CEO stated "safety systems on its 737 Max jets were properly designed".
This statement is an indictment of Boeing's design procedures. It is difficult to understand that obvious questions that should have properly been asked at the design checking and certification steps were simply not asked or perhaps ignored.
This CEO oversaw the manufacture of unsafe aircraft, how can he remain CEO after stating they were properly designed?
Any objective view will conclude that MCAS was a feature operative on the MAX series to counter a propensity of the airplane to raise the nose and potentially stall as power is applied from the larger and more powerful engines. It will also conclude that MCAS relied on a single sensor with a history of failure in use. It will also conclude that systems intended to alert pilots on sensor failure were optional extras, available at extra cost.
CEO stated "safety systems on its 737 Max jets were properly designed".
This statement is an indictment of Boeing's design procedures. It is difficult to understand that obvious questions that should have properly been asked at the design checking and certification steps were simply not asked or perhaps ignored.
This CEO oversaw the manufacture of unsafe aircraft, how can he remain CEO after stating they were properly designed?
May 6th 2019, 3:30 pm
#131
Listen to the Music
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Location: Fraser Valley BC
Posts: 4,706
Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
A worrying admission:
"Boeing has admitted that it knew about a problem with its 737 Max jets a year before the aircraft was involved in two fatal accidents, but took no action."
Q. What else does Boeing know about it's products that could impact safety?
A. We'll never know, so best get drunk next time you sit in one of their tin cans.
"Boeing has admitted that it knew about a problem with its 737 Max jets a year before the aircraft was involved in two fatal accidents, but took no action."
Q. What else does Boeing know about it's products that could impact safety?
A. We'll never know, so best get drunk next time you sit in one of their tin cans.
May 6th 2019, 3:38 pm
#132
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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
May 9th 2019, 11:55 pm
#133
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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
The FAA has created another joint board in regards to the 737 MAX.
The new one consists of experts from NASA, the US Air Force and DOT’s Volpe National Transportation Systems Center, none of which were involved in the initial certification process.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...upgrade-review
The Joint Authorities Technical Review the FAA set up met last week, made up of authorities from 8 countries, and tasked with doing a comprehensive review of the 737 MAX certification process. Report from this group is due in 90 days, and is separate from the certification of the new software.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-certification
Wise of the FAA not to go alone, and if/when the fix is approved and planes in the air, it will have been a mix of agencies and countries who approved it and not relying on Boeing or the FAA alone.
The new one consists of experts from NASA, the US Air Force and DOT’s Volpe National Transportation Systems Center, none of which were involved in the initial certification process.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...upgrade-review
The Joint Authorities Technical Review the FAA set up met last week, made up of authorities from 8 countries, and tasked with doing a comprehensive review of the 737 MAX certification process. Report from this group is due in 90 days, and is separate from the certification of the new software.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-certification
Wise of the FAA not to go alone, and if/when the fix is approved and planes in the air, it will have been a mix of agencies and countries who approved it and not relying on Boeing or the FAA alone.
May 17th 2019, 12:55 am
#134
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Re: Boeing 737 Max 8
Boeing say's they are done with the software fix. Next stage is trying to get certification, certification flights have not yet been scheduled.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/boeing...zceeF1kf5i7xGE
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/boeing...zceeF1kf5i7xGE